What is mind? What is matter?

Polymath257 said:

No. It is a state of matter.

All matter has energy. All energy is usually associated with some sort of particle (photon, etc) although potential energy doesn't have to be.

A solid is not 'just' a state of energy. Solids (and matter in general) have properties other than just their energy, like momentum, angular momentum, charge, spin, etc.

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A photon is the quantum of the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions and trillions of degrees in the event that is called the Big Bang. Although generally regarded as a discrete, stable elementary particle, a photon, also called a wave particle, is not a particle at all, as it has zero mass and no electric charge, and yet it carries angular and linear momentum.

Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, which event spewed out a liquid like soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions of degrees, it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space.

But there was momentum within that ever cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, which wave particles are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.

One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material. But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles, which are merely swirling vortices of energy and have no physical properties.

As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron. As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors} from which the galaxies would later be created.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped. The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, and evening descended as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.

And so ended the first creative day.

The Anointed said:

A photon is the quantum of the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions and trillions of degrees in the event that is called the Big Bang. Although generally regarded as a discrete, stable elementary particle, a photon, also called a wave particle, is not a particle at all, as it has zero mass and no electric charge, and yet it carries angular and linear momentum.

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ALL quantum particles are also waves. This isn't unique to photons. Also, photons were NOT just produced in the Big Bang. The light in your room produces photons in great numbers.

Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, which event spewed out a liquid like soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions of degrees,

Click to expand...

Already wrong. The singularity, as understood in General Relativity, doesn't have a size. It is a limiting condition--a description of the inability to extend our physical variables past that 'time'.

Now, we *know* GR doesn't tell the full story. At some point quantum effects become relevant and quantum effects tend to 'smooth out' the singularities of GR. So, it is quite possible that the Big Bang is NOT the 'beginning'. But, for convenience, we can say it is the start of the current expansion phase.

it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space.

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Way, way, way off. The BB happened about 13.7 billion years ago. The sun and Earth were not formed until about 4.5 billion years ago. There was over 9 billion years between the BB and when the Earth was formed.

Second, describing the early universe as a 'quantum of plasma' that is 'liquid-like electromagnetic energy' is just strange. it has NO connection to the *actual* scientific description. For one thing, it is a misuse of the term 'quantum'. Second, it was NOT simply electro-magnetic energy. Third, to be a plasma in and of itself means there had to be charged matter there. So your description isn't even internally consistent.

Third, the materials from which the Earth formed were NOT there at the beginning. Before the first generation of stars, there was only hydrogen, helium, and a small amount of Lithium. ALL the heavier elements, including those that make up you, me, and the Earth, were formed inside of stars or during the explosion of those stars. The raw materials needed to form before the sun and Earth could be formed.

But there was momentum within that ever cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, which wave particles are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you *think* this means, but it has no correspondence with the actual scientific description.

One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material. But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles, which are merely swirling vortices of energy and have no physical properties.

Click to expand...

Again, simply wrong. There *were* physical properties, even very early on. Protons, neutrons, electrons existed and had mass, charge, spin, etc. ALL of these are physical properties. You are also messing up the time line horribly. Nucleogenesis (fusion) in the Early universe happened in the first few minutes after the BB and did NOT create the heavier elements like carbon, oxygen, silicon, etc. Those needed to form inside of *stars* that formed much later.

As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron. As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors} from which the galaxies would later be created.

Click to expand...

Well, you have an outline here, but the details are wrong. Dark matter and dark energy have little to do with the era of nucleogenesis. For one, the density of drk energy is low enough that it doen't become relevant to the expansion until billions of years later.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped. The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, and evening descended as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.

And so ended the first creative day.

Click to expand...

OK...not at all the scientific description. Clearly you want to force some sort of Biblical description onto the science. it doesn't work.

allfoak said:

I would suggest that they are aspects of something higher.
Something that transcends both concepts.

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You mean as in “spiritual”?

Then no, because spiritual to me sounds like tripping on acid...

...Oops!

Did I say that out loud?

*hastily* Cross my heart, I don’t do drug...honestly. *looking guilty*

Oh, damn! *sighs*

Polymath257 said:

ALL quantum particles are also waves. This isn't unique to photons. Also, photons were NOT just produced in the Big Bang. The light in your room produces photons in great numbers.


Already wrong. The singularity, as understood in General Relativity, doesn't have a size. It is a limiting condition--a description of the inability to extend our physical variables past that 'time'.

Now, we *know* GR doesn't tell the full story. At some point quantum effects become relevant and quantum effects tend to 'smooth out' the singularities of GR. So, it is quite possible that the Big Bang is NOT the 'beginning'. But, for convenience, we can say it is the start of the current expansion phase.



Way, way, way off. The BB happened about 13.7 billion years ago. The sun and Earth were not formed until about 4.5 billion years ago. There was over 9 billion years between the BB and when the Earth was formed.

Second, describing the early universe as a 'quantum of plasma' that is 'liquid-like electromagnetic energy' is just strange. it has NO connection to the *actual* scientific description. For one thing, it is a misuse of the term 'quantum'. Second, it was NOT simply electro-magnetic energy. Third, to be a plasma in and of itself means there had to be charged matter there. So your description isn't even internally consistent.

Third, the materials from which the Earth formed were NOT there at the beginning. Before the first generation of stars, there was only hydrogen, helium, and a small amount of Lithium. ALL the heavier elements, including those that make up you, me, and the Earth, were formed inside of stars or during the explosion of those stars. The raw materials needed to form before the sun and Earth could be formed.



I'm not sure what you *think* this means, but it has no correspondence with the actual scientific description.



Again, simply wrong. There *were* physical properties, even very early on. Protons, neutrons, electrons existed and had mass, charge, spin, etc. ALL of these are physical properties. You are also messing up the time line horribly. Nucleogenesis (fusion) in the Early universe happened in the first few minutes after the BB and did NOT create the heavier elements like carbon, oxygen, silicon, etc. Those needed to form inside of *stars* that formed much later.



Well, you have an outline here, but the details are wrong. Dark matter and dark energy have little to do with the era of nucleogenesis. For one, the density of drk energy is low enough that it doen't become relevant to the expansion until billions of years later.




OK...not at all the scientific description. Clearly you want to force some sort of Biblical description onto the science. it doesn't work.

Click to expand...

The Anointed originally wrote…… And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

Polymath257 wrote…….. Way, way, way off. The BB happened about 13.7 billion years ago. The sun and Earth were not formed until about 4.5 billion years ago. There was over 9 billion years between the BB and when the Earth was formed.

The Anointed…….. Duhhh?

The Anointed originally wrote…… A photon is the quantum of the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions and trillions of degrees in the event that is called the Big Bang. Although generally regarded as a discrete, stable elementary particle, a photon, also called a wave particle, is not a particle at all, as it has zero mass and no electric charge, and yet it carries angular and linear momentum.

Polymath257 wrote…… Second, describing the early universe as a 'quantum of plasma' that is 'liquid-like electromagnetic energy' is just strange. it has NO connection to the *actual* scientific description. For one thing, it is a misuse of the term 'quantum'. Second, it was NOT simply electro-magnetic energy. Third, to be a plasma in and of itself means there had to be charged matter there. So your description isn't even internally consistent.

The Anointed……. The definition of “QUANTUM” in physics…….. “A discrete indivisible amount of some quantity, especially energy or angular momentum by which a given system may change in any process.” The quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions of degrees in the event that is called the Big Bang, were the wave particles which were not particles at all, having zero mass and no electric charge, etc.

The Anointed originally wrote ……. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron. As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors} from which the galaxies would later be created.

Polymath257 wrote……. Third, the materials from which the Earth formed were NOT there at the beginning. Before the first generation of stars, there was only hydrogen, helium, and a small amount of Lithium. ALL the heavier elements, including those that make up you, me, and the Earth, were formed inside of stars or during the explosion of those stars. The raw materials needed to form before the sun and Earth could be formed.

The Anointed……. Duhh

viole said:

I would suggest that they are not.

If they were, then I wonder why my mind could be so easily affected by 20 shots of very material swedish vodka.

Ciao

- viole

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There is an explanation but it is difficult to explain and very rarely understood, let alone accepted as truth.
So I don't do it very often.
I would be willing to converse about the subject but I will not argue.

gnostic said:

because spiritual to me sounds like trippin

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That's normal.

If any transcendence is occurring, I'd say its through communication and history. Little pieces of us leaving our mind, and living on despite our physical death. Our individual minds are dwarfed by the collective. If that isn't transcendental, then I don't know the definition.

Sir Doom said:

If any transcendence is occurring, I'd say its through communication and history. Little pieces of us leaving our mind, and living on despite our physical death. Our individual minds are dwarfed by the collective. If that isn't transcendental, then I don't know the definition.

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You the invisible mind that has developed within that created body are the controlling godhead to that body, with which you are one being, [body, soul and spirit]. But our words or our speech, is merely the expression of the thoughts that are stored in the minds that are we.

It is as the great and wonderful Robert Service wrote concerning his book:

It's of my life the golden sum;
Ah! who that reads this book of mine,
In stormy centuries to come.
Will dream I rooted with the swine?
Behold! I give mankind my best:
What does it matter all the rest?

It's this that makes sublime my day;
It's this that makes me carry on.
Oh, let them mock my mortal clay,
My spirit's [Words] deathless as the dawn;
Oh, let them shudder as they look . . .
I'll be immortal in me book.


The wonderful Robert Service.

The junior god looked from his place
In the conning towers of heaven,
And he saw the world through the spin of space
Like a giant golf ball driven.
And because he was bored, as some gods are,
With high celestial mirth,
He clutched the reins of a shooting star,
And steered it down to the earth.

The junior god ‘neath leaf and bud,
Passed on with a merry air,
Til lo! He came to a pool of mud,
And some hogs were rolling there.
Then in he plunged with gleeful cries,
And down he lay supine;
For they had no mud in paradise,
And they likewise had no swine.

The junior god forgot himself;
He squelched mud through his toes;
With the careless joy of a wanton boy
His reckless laughter rose.
Til, tired at last, in a brook nearby,
He washed off every stain;
Then softly up to the radiant sky
He rose, a god again.

The junior god now heads the roll
In the list of heaven’s peers;
He sits in the house of High Control,
And regulates the spheres.
Yet does he wonder, do you suppose,
If even in gods divine,
The best and wisest may not be those
Who have wallowed awhile with the swine?

Tis often felt to this one here
That pretty words do oft endear
That clever play upon one's speech
May pull past skepticism's reach
That though afar a point may lay
Poetic verse might win the day
Confounding in it's silver line
The shiny object steals your mind

Cooler than most, you think, But not cooler than all.

My Masterpiece, by Robert Service.

It's slim and trim and bound in blue;
Its leaves are crisp and edged with gold;
Its words are simple, stalwart too;
Its thoughts are tender, wise and bold,
Its pages scintillate with wit;
Its pathos clutches at my throat;
Oh, how I love each line of it!
That little book I never wrote.

In dreams I see it praised and prized
By all, from plowman unto peer;
Its pencil marked and memorized,
Its loaned (And not returned I fear)
Its worn and torn and travel tossed,
And even dusky natives quote
That classic that the world has lost
The Little Book I NEVER Wrote.

Poor ghost! For homes you've failed to cheer,
For grieving hearts uncomforted,
Don't haunt me now …. Alas! I fear
The fire of inspiration's dead,
A humdrum way I go tonight,
For all I hoped an dreamed remote:
Too late . . . . another man must write
That Little Book I NEVER Wrote.:


To Robert Service.

Day after day he sat there in the park beneath the trees
I never saw him get there, nor ever saw him leave
He sat there like a statue, an object made of stone
Sometimes I’d look and there he was, but when I’d look again he’d gone

He never seemed to differ though I saw him everyday
An old man worn and beaten, who in a strange mysterious way
Seemed to stir a distant memory: a mist like question came to mind
And I tried to give it substance, give it form in space and time

But somehow it eluded me, was it something from my past?
Why did his presence haunt me and hold me in its grasp?
His eyes they never wandered from the window of my room
Like some ghostly apparition, had it risen from some tomb?

And then today while at my writing desk just staring into space
I spied him the shadows, that man without a face
Then a voice welled up inside me, Oh God another has awoke
And he pleaded, will you write it, "The book I never wrote"?

Poor soul oh how I weep with you, you child of old Khayyam
But this world is far too busy and I doubt they’d understand
They’ve never smelt the fragrance from the gardens far below
Nor wandered on the hilltops where the sweetest blossoms blow

Nor do they keep our custom and turn their wine glass down
To pour a small libation to those beneath the ground
Their future lies in darkness their past is darker still
And though I think it useless, of course we’ll do your will

We’ll write the book you never wrote and trim its edge with gold
We’ll fill it with your tenderness, your wisdom brave and bold
Each page will scintillate with wit and clutch the reader’s throat
I pray that they will learn from it, “The book you never wrote”

Every line will ring with truth, with hope and joy on every page
A cheer, a clarion call to youth, a hymn, a comforter to age
All there that you were meant to be, your part divine from the God in me
The God who dies that we might see our promised gift of eternity.

So now at last my dear friend, come sit, and you can write the end
The end to darkness, thirst and pain, for you’ll never fear nor weep again
Exultantly from shame and wrong your glory rises in our song
And this we’ll not forget to do, we’ll bind your book in brilliant blue… The Anointed.

allfoak said:

What is mind? What is matter?

I would suggest that they are aspects of something higher.
Something that transcends both concepts.

Click to expand...

Yes, they are both part of Reality. Call it what you will, but everything that exists, both material and non-material, are all part of that which exists.

In other words, there are not two Realities, only one.