The Catholic Church should be shut down

oldbadger · Aug 20, 2018

9-10ths_Penguin said:
It seems like you're saying that the Catholic Church shouldn't be made to pay restitution to its victims because the cost is more than the market will bear, but since you're being less than coherent, that's just my best guess.

It seems like you're not prepared to focus upon victims from clubs, youth organisations, charities (oxfam!!), youth detention centres, orphanages, sports facilities or any other places where sexual harassment and assaults have occurred on minors ........only religious groups., but that's just my best guess.

Shadow Wolf · Aug 20, 2018

74x12 said:
Governments of the world and others are still raping kids. It is being exposed and the public is becoming more aware of the incredible human rights abuses, but slowly. The more they are exposed; the more likely they are to do crazy things like start nuclear wars or something. The most High God is not happy that all this is happening to children.

Look at the number of Hollywood sexual predators have had their careers ended? RCC sexual predators move the Vatican and are protected. Al Franken is gone, but Cardinals are blaming the victims.

oldbadger · Aug 20, 2018

Deidre said:
............That hasn't happened with the RCC. In most secular organizations, secular authorities get involved...........

No they don't! I just need to hold your attention, right there.
That's completely false. I don't know how many examples you need for proof, but I have intimate knowledge, in a couple of cases as a direct witness that no companies, services, government bodies, hospitals or any other secular groups have rushed to bring focus upon complaints of sexual or child abuse.

Where a doctor was discovered to have been 'putting patients under' in various ways and sexually abusing or raping them the hospital authority quietly 'got rid' of him, making no complaints when he was employed by another hospital 70 miles away......... it was at that hospital that a very brave nurse risked career and pension to bllow the whistle. Do you want more details? Exact Details?

Where a health authority was prescribing and distributing drugs to epileptic women in pregnancy, causing their babies to be born seriously disabled, it was putting the most disabled cases on to 'feed on demand' only, knowing that such babies do not ask for sustenance...... = death. Do you want more details? Exact Details?

Where Oxfam staff were abusing women and children in foreign lands, this organisation attempted to reduce avoid bad publicity by covering up the crimes. I am not a witness to this (like I am for the above cases) but the evidence is fairly clear now and the internet is full of it.

And..... No....... I never suggested that criminals anywhere should be able to evade the law, or payment of damages and restitution. My posts have only suggested that ALL criminals should be convicted and made to pay, so I don't know how you needed to question me about that.

You are absolutely wrong about secular bodies being open and honest about child abuse, sexual crimes, dangerous products, boardroom frauds, tax evasions or anything else Folks cover stuff up if they can. Sadly. :facepalm:

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi · Aug 20, 2018

Deidre said:
Thanks It's from a site I follow called DeviantArt. Such cool artists.

I know of that site. It's a great treasure of art.

Shadow Wolf · Aug 21, 2018

adrian009 said:
In the meantime, I'll defend their right to have their faith as I do with most other faith communities.

They can have their faith. It is the criminal organization that needs shut down.

Shadow Wolf · Aug 21, 2018

oldbadger said:
You are absolutely wrong about secular bodies being open and honest about child abuse, sexual crimes, dangerous products, boardroom frauds, tax evasions or anything else Folks cover stuff up if they can. Sadly.

For every other organization and individual, such a thing comes to light and it's game over, go directly to jail, the world doesn't tolerate their existence. But with the RCC, not only do we know it's been going on for decades, we know they harbor fugitives, we know they refuse to surrender those guilty of sexual abuse, and we know they are salting wounds when they blame the victims and "free love of the 60s." If it was just about any other state/pseudo-state, just about any nation would probably invade and seize wanted criminals by force as a display of "you aren't going to get away with raping our children, now hand over the rest unless you want this to get ugly."

Nigel Hoath · Aug 21, 2018

I've read a lot of the posts on here several times and some of them make me feel sick. I have worked for several organisations who have stamped down hard on much lesser crimes than child abuse. I remember a TV company instantly sacking a manager who had stopped a diabetic going for a snack before taking her insulin. And initiating management training. I remember an international bank taking action against sexual material being distributed on its intranet. And bringing in procedures. I remember the efforts made at my golf club to ensure juniors were transparently protected even though there had never been a suggestion of anything in the past to suggest there was a danger. ..................... there are lots of very good people out there. Lots of caring organisations.

To try to associate most of the world with child abuse, and then use that as an excuse to justify child abuse and the covering up of child abuse, I find staggering. And it doesn't end there does it. The RC seems to love creating suffering everywhere it goes.

Yes not all RCs are evil. Yes there are RC members with their heads in the sand claiming innocence. But there are sufficient, and most worryingly those at the top, to show that the level of criminality under the guise of religion is out of control.

OK maybe the call to close the RC down was over the top. But to split it up would seem not only sensible but beneficial to the members while facilitating greater safety mechanisms. After all we frequently force companies to do just this for the benefits of consumers.

And before the defenders of the indefensible try to worm their way around the obvious, yes other religions and organisations should be treated the same.

9-10ths_Penguin · Aug 21, 2018

oldbadger said:
It seems like you're not prepared to focus upon victims from clubs, youth organisations, charities (oxfam!!), youth detention centres, orphanages, sports facilities or any other places where sexual harassment and assaults have occurred on minors ........only religious groups., but that's just my best guess.

If that's your best guess, then you aren't very good at guessing. I'm consistently against sexual abuse of children.

And remember that with the Catholic Church, there's also the human trafficking and slavery; I can't think of any organizations that have committed these crimes on the same scale as the Catholic Church in my lifetime except for ones that are universally condemned, like Boko Haram or the Russian mob (which, BTW, I'm opposed to as well).

2ndpillar · Aug 21, 2018

Deidre said:
The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

The Roman church, a daughter of Babylon (Revelation 17:5) was instituted in 325 A.D. by the Roman emperor Constantine, who was the 7th head of the beast (Revelation 17:10), also known as the "beast with two horns like a lamb", who was to deceive "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14). We are now in the time of the 8th head of the beast, the world political leadership, which has ruled the world, with the leaders being led by unclean Spirits (Revelation 16:13), with the destruction of the revived Jerusalem (Joel 3:1) being a prime objective. Their demon filled leader, Obama, and his sister witch Hillary, were stopped at the ballot box, but the war goes on. The pope is just part of that leadership, but according to Isaiah 22:25, he will "fall", and by looking at world events, the fall seems just behind the door. Babylon and her daughters, the Roman church and her daughters, the Protestant churches, are slated to be tossed into the sea as well (Revelation 18:19) and those clinging on the pope, Peter's supposed heir, will be cut off (Isaiah 22:25). Getting rid of the Roman church, and world demon led leadership will come at a cost. 1/3 of mankind will apparently be killed by fire, smoke and brimstone alone (Revelation 9:18). This apparent action starts at Har-Magedon, which is located between Jerusalem and Damascus.(Revelation 16:16).. Hold onto your socks, because it will come with a "great earthquake" in which the cities of the nations fell (Revelation 16:19).

viole · Aug 21, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Does this speak for catholic individuals as a whole?

I am sure there were some individuals in the Nazi party in Germany that were ok. Mr. Schindler, for instance.

Of course, the existence of good individuals in a criminal organization does not make it not-criminal.

And in my view, if we analize the evidence, the Catholic church fully qualifies as an organization with the purpose of perpetrating and covering up crime.

Since centuries. A good reading about the subject is the multi volume historical treatise titled “the criminal history of Christianity”,by KH Deschner.

Ciao

- viole

Unveiled Artist · Aug 21, 2018

viole said:
I am sure there were some individuals in the Nazi party in Germany that were ok. Mr. Schindler, for instance.

Of course, the existence of good individuals in a criminal organization does not make it not-criminal.

And in my view, if we analize the evidence, the Catholic church fully qualifies as an organization with the purpose of perpetrating and covering up crime.

Since centuries. A good reading about the subject is the multi volume historical treatise titled “the criminal history of Christianity”,by KH Deschner.

Ciao

- viole

I honestly dont see The Church as a whole as a criminal organisation. I actually don't see it as an organization at all. From all the mess going on Inside the church, they are going against their own doctrines. The ideal Church is that whom it's members help each other put in regards to sin (not referring to cover-ups but just regular Catholics)

I see more harm in the individual crimes than the people who cover it up. But I do see some advances in trying to change the policies of the church without changing the sacrament of confession. We can't assume all priest will commit child abuse and children are all at risk of priests. That's silly.

If it wasn't religious, I bet the same exact story but different org. would have all this popularity.

Even if I know the Facts not the opinions orbthe reviews but the Facts I can make a better informed decision on how we can help The Church not accuse it. People get punished for crimes; the guilty priests in the church are no different.

One thing I would like to know is why or how can the government convict these X number of priests by the words of their victims.

Are there facts that explain why or how the victims words can not be enough to convict a person (regardless whether they are a cook or priest or janitor). I mean, with murder, if there is strong evidence, that person is trialed and convicted if so be.

Also, I'd want to know what law in the Church (facts) prevents the government (US) from making an investigation just like any other child abuser as to convict the people and not the church as a whole.

Also, I doubt the Church knows in advance which priest May commit sexual abuse. So, it can't be specific to priest in US laws but clergy as a whole. But it's hard, and it's not overnight.

Catholics aren't stupid (my words). Why does the church get more popularity in child abuse victims than say another non religious organization with the same cover-up and X employee crimes to their victims.

I don't take google and needs stuff* as is. Once you say "priests shouldn't be celibate because it leads to child abuse" that statement is very ignorant of understanding actions, motives, intent, and science of human nature.

Even saying pedephiles shouldn't be around kids is off. Child abusers shouldn't be around kids. Attraction does nothing.

So it's all messed up. I don't know how these things up with you guys mental health. We are all for accusing christians of not following teachings of love and no discrimination but then be hypocrites to not see love, support, etc from any person we know regardless who they are.

The whole view is silly. Yes, I disagree with it. I don't generalize and I never blame the church for a child abusers crime. Not ...

Anyway. I got errands to run before it rains again.

The Emperor of Mankind · Aug 21, 2018

Nakosis said:
Actually just pointing out the problem doesn't end with the Catholic Church. There are plenty of folks to target.

And we are allowed to focus on one organisation at at time - particularly when said organisation is uniquely monolithic and will require a disproportionate amount of resources. This thread is specifically about the Catholic Church - not any other organisations. Please stop trying to derail it with whataboutery.

The Church is only a popular target now because of the media focus. While it may make one feel virtuous to jump on the bandwagon, it doesn't really address the larger issue.

I'm not taking this stance because I'm virtue-signalling and I strongly resent the implication. I'm not "jumping on the bandwagon" either; my attitude that the Catholic Church is a criminal organisation that should be shut down for its various crimes is far older than this thread.

Only the Church?

We are only talking about the Church in this thread. Please try to stay on topic.

As you say it's been around for thousands of year, only now folks notice something ain't right. What took humanity so long.

Well for starters we have a lot more information available at our fingertips than we did compared to people living as recently as 30 years ago. The Internet and improvements in telecommunications technology have allowed people across the globe to get in contact with one another and share stories. As a result we can find information much faster and more consistently than we could a few decades ago. There's also been a change in attitude in Catholic congregations and society in general from 'that little brat is making up stories about the local priest' to 'allegations of child abuse should be taken seriously and not dismissed out of hand' so now people are noticing as opposed to pretending it doesn't happen. Also, we live in a much more globalised world where it's easier to travel compared to when the Church was a lot younger. Combine all of this with the fact the Church no longer has the power to monopolise the information communities have access to and it's easy to understand how people are only finding out about this now.

Quite frankly I'm amazed you needed any of this explained to you.

Folks are waiting for the next pile of corruption to be handed to them on a silver platter so they can again feel virtuous?

Not sure why you're so insistent that people who are against child sexual abuse and want to see an organisation that has a track record of protecting abusers punished are virtue-signalling but hey ho that's not my idiotic position to defend.

It means, stop feeling virtuous because someone else had to rub your face in the corruption before humanity took notice. Humanity failed. We continue to fail.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. Humanity fails for not noticing child sexual abuse by priests right away so we shouldn't take any action against the Church for sheltering paedophiles now we do know; wouldn't that be compounding said failure? Also, if not realising child sex abuse was going on amongst the ordained is humanity failing, then doesn't us finally finding out and wanting to do something about it rather than allow it to continue count as a success? Either way; I don't understand your motive for painting justifiable moral outrage as virtue-signalling or implying that people are only speaking out against the Church in order to appear edgy but your posts increasingly look like apologetics designed to discredit the Church's critics.

Which seems to be the human norm. So maybe you think yourself a decent human being, but how great can you be if someone else has to rub you face in the corruption before you take notice.

Guess I'm not a decent human being since I never reacted to the problem of child sexual abuse in the Church before I found out about it for the first time years ago

I'm a decent human being because decent people don't think about sexually abusing children; or exploiting them for slave labour; or trafficking children from 'undesirable' families to 'desirable' ones.

Or engaging in defensive apologetics for those who do, Nakosis.

exchemist · Aug 21, 2018

2ndpillar said:
The Roman church, a daughter of Babylon (Revelation 17:5) was instituted in 325 A.D. by the Roman emperor Constantine, who was the 7th head of the beast (Revelation 17:10), also known as the "beast with two horns like a lamb", who was to deceive "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14). We are now in the time of the 8th head of the beast, the world political leadership, which has ruled the world, with the leaders being led by unclean Spirits (Revelation 16:13), with the destruction of the revived Jerusalem (Joel 3:1) being a prime objective. Their demon filled leader, Obama, and his sister witch Hillary, were stopped at the ballot box, but the war goes on. The pope is just part of that leadership, but according to Isaiah 22:25, he will "fall", and by looking at world events, the fall seems just behind the door. Babylon and her daughters, the Roman church and her daughters, the Protestant churches, are slated to be tossed into the sea as well (Revelation 18:19) and those clinging on the pope, Peter's supposed heir, will be cut off (Isaiah 22:25). Getting rid of the Roman church, and world demon led leadership will come at a cost. 1/3 of mankind will apparently be killed by fire, smoke and brimstone alone (Revelation 9:18). This apparent action starts at Har-Magedon, which is located between Jerusalem and Damascus.(Revelation 16:16).. Hold onto your socks, because it will come with a "great earthquake" in which the cities of the nations fell (Revelation 16:19).

But what about the Lizard People??

Deidre · Aug 21, 2018

It’s interesting how many people think that their faith hinges on a building or a priest or a pope or a rabbi or an imam. God exists (imo) without any churches or mosques or temples at all. But religion convinces us that we need it or we lose God. That’s how the RCC became wealthy and others like it.

Brinne · Aug 21, 2018

The precedent of the government shutting down a religious organization has some very bad connotations. Those who are guilty should stand trial for violating the law of the land however the entirety of the Church shouldn't be shut down based upon the actions of the individuals, not to mention that it sort of breaches the values of secularism and separation of church and state. The Catholic Church absolutely has hierarchical issues with sexual abuse and those who covered it up or worse took part in the act should be put on trial. The government should definitely handle the investigation and trial of these individuals but shutting the whole Catholic Church in America is kind of a terrifying thought in regards to government overreach.

While I like Francis I do think the papacy seriously needs to take a stricter stance on this issue beyond kind words and apologies. The process of healing needs to be transparent and cooperative with local authorities, the papacy, and those affected.

Nakosis · Aug 21, 2018

The Emperor of Mankind said:
And we are allowed to focus on one organisation at at time - particularly when said organisation is uniquely monolithic and will require a disproportionate amount of resources. This thread is specifically about the Catholic Church - not any other organisations.

You can focus on whatever you want. I'm just saying folks should consider taking some personal responsibility in protecting their children instead of expecting other folks to do it for them.

Please stop trying to derail it with whataboutery.

Really? I just stated my opinion on personal responsibility. Sure, what about taking some personal responsibility with what happens with our kids. I suppose you want this thread to be about being angry with the Catholic Church instead of solutions. Ok go forth and vent your anger. Personally, I'm not interested in your issues with the Catholic Church.

I'm not taking this stance because I'm virtue-signalling and I strongly resent the implication. I'm not "jumping on the bandwagon" either; my attitude that the Catholic Church is a criminal organisation that should be shut down for its various crimes is far older than this thread.

Yes I get that you have issues with the Church. I don't see that as healthy nor a position from which to actually solve problems, but you'll have to figure that out on your own.

We are only talking about the Church in this thread. Please try to stay on topic.

Sorry, I really don't share your need to vent. I don't care what you think the topic should be.

Well for starters we have a lot more information available at our fingertips than we did compared to people living as recently as 30 years ago. The Internet and improvements in telecommunications technology have allowed people across the globe to get in contact with one another and share stories. As a result we can find information much faster and more consistently than we could a few decades ago. There's also been a change in attitude in Catholic congregations and society in general from 'that little brat is making up stories about the local priest' to 'allegations of child abuse should be taken seriously and not dismissed out of hand' so now people are noticing as opposed to pretending it doesn't happen. Also, we live in a much more globalised world where it's easier to travel compared to when the Church was a lot younger. Combine all of this with the fact the Church no longer has the power to monopolise the information communities have access to and it's easy to understand how people are only finding out about this now. Quite frankly I'm amazed you needed any of this explained to you.

So were you actually involved with the Catholic Church abusing you or someone you know? Or is this something you are virtually outraged about?

Not sure why you're so insistent that people who are against child sexual abuse and want to see an organisation that has a track record of protecting abusers punished are virtue-signalling but hey ho that's not my idiotic position to defend.

Because without real knowledge there it's easy to become outraged, but not so easy to come up with a workable solution.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. Humanity fails for not noticing child sexual abuse by priests right away so we shouldn't take any action against the Church for sheltering paedophiles now we do know; wouldn't that be compounding said failure? Also, if not realising child sex abuse was going on amongst the ordained is humanity failing, then doesn't us finally finding out and wanting to do something about it rather than allow it to continue count as a success? Either way; I don't understand your motive for painting justifiable moral outrage as virtue-signalling or implying that people are only speaking out against the Church in order to appear edgy but your posts increasingly look like apologetics designed to discredit the Church's critics.

I suspect that's because you don't want to accept any responsibility. You just want to be outraged. I'm asking what is wrong with us. Maybe that's not a comfortable position for you.

Guess I'm not a decent human being since I never reacted to the problem of child sexual abuse in the Church before I found out about it for the first time years ago
I'm a decent human being because decent people don't think about sexually abusing children; or exploiting them for slave labour; or trafficking children from 'undesirable' families to 'desirable' ones.

Or engaging in defensive apologetics for those who do, Nakosis.

Ah, so it is virtual outrage.
If you want to go about being outraged, that's fine. No need to drag me into it. I'm speaking from my position as a parent and taking responsibility to keep my kids safe from any and all predators.

Unveiled Artist · Aug 21, 2018

Brinne said:
The precedent of the government shutting down a religious organization has some very bad connotations. Those who are guilty should stand trial for violating the law of the land however the entirety of the Church shouldn't be shut down based upon the actions of the individuals, not to mention that it sort of breaches the values of secularism and separation of church and state. The Catholic Church absolutely has hierarchical issues with sexual abuse and those who covered it up or worse took part in the act should be put on trial. The government should definitely handle the investigation and trial of these individuals but shutting the whole Catholic Church in America is kind of a terrifying thought in regards to government overreach.

While I like Francis I do think the papacy seriously needs to take a stricter stance on this issue beyond kind words and apologies. The process of healing needs to be transparent and cooperative with local authorities, the papacy, and those affected.

Well said.

Unveiled Artist · Aug 21, 2018

Nakosis said:
You can focus on whatever you want. I'm just saying folks should consider taking some personal responsibility in protecting their children instead of expecting other folks to do it for them.

Really? I just stated my opinion on personal responsibility. Sure, what about taking some personal responsibility with what happens with our kids. I suppose you want this thread to be about being angry with the Catholic Church instead of solutions. Ok go forth and vent your anger. Personally, I'm not interested in your issues with the Catholic Church.

Yes I get that you have issues with the Church. I don't see that as healthy nor a position from which to actually solve problems, but you'll have to figure that out on your own.

Sorry, I really don't share your need to vent. I don't care what you think the topic should be.

So were you actually involved with the Catholic Church abusing you or someone you know? Or is this something you are virtually outraged about?

Because without real knowledge there it's easy to become outraged, but not so easy to come up with a workable solution.

I suspect that's because you don't want to accept any responsibility. You just want to be outraged. I'm asking what is wrong with us. Maybe that's not a comfortable position for you.

Ah, so it is virtual outrage.
If you want to go about being outraged, that's fine. No need to drag me into it. I'm speaking from my position as a parent and taking responsibility to keep my kids safe from any and all predators.

You know, that's a good point. I wonder if it's more appropriate that parents can meet the priest first. For example, where I live, we have one of a few biggest parishes. There are four priest who listens to confessions.

When I was confirmed, I talked with the priest in his office during my confession...long story short, I wonder if parents can set up a meeting with a said priest. Then, after confirmation confessions the child can see the priest which the parent is more comfortable.

On each parish door, there is the name of the priest in confession. They seem to have the same timing. But every church is different. Probably smaller parishes.

That or see if priests can come to ones home. There are s few Catholics here and twice a year the Legion of Mary comes and talks with everyone of us. There was a priest that used to have mass here but he transfered.

oldbadger · Aug 21, 2018

Shadow Wolf said:
For every other organization and individual, such a thing comes to light and it's game over, go directly to jail, the world doesn't tolerate their existence. But with the RCC, not only do we know it's been going on for decades, we know they harbor fugitives, we know they refuse to surrender those guilty of sexual abuse, and we know they are salting wounds when they blame the victims and "free love of the 60s." If it was just about any other state/pseudo-state, just about any nation would probably invade and seize wanted criminals by force as a display of "you aren't going to get away with raping our children, now hand over the rest unless you want this to get ugly."

OK........... so the countries where the crimes were committed need to purse, try, and sentence convicted criminals........ That's what needs to be done, just as it should be done with any and all such similar crimes within commerce, industry, travel, sport, youth management, religions, clubs etc.

There seem to be about 4500 cases and/or perpetrators of such crimes committed within the Catholic Church. But there are about 410,000 other priests in the Catholic Church who are innocent, attending to about well over a billion followers around the World, and if this should all be destroyed because of the crimes of a tiny % of priests and seniors then I think it's sad.

Just now we are discovering child and other sexual abuse in just about every segment of our societies, cultures and work environments and so I for one wouldn't want to go on the self-righteous judgmental treadmill over one particular organisation.

That's all........

oldbadger · Aug 21, 2018

9-10ths_Penguin said:
If that's your best guess, then you aren't very good at guessing. I'm consistently against sexual abuse of children.

And remember that with the Catholic Church, there's also the human trafficking and slavery; I can't think of any organizations that have committed these crimes on the same scale as the Catholic Church in my lifetime except for ones that are universally condemned, like Boko Haram or the Russian mob (which, BTW, I'm opposed to as well).

Have you got any links about human trafficking and slavery within the RCC?

The Catholic Church should be shut down

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