God talking

Unveiled Artist · Aug 8, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
*I agree religion has always been a deed/belief thing, but Jesus brings us something different than what came before.

Jesus didnt change the teachings of deeds. He just pointed out there are two types of deeds, righteous and unrighteous. Those who do righteous deeds, do so in, from, and with god. The source of their actions are not their own (unrighteous) but of god. (verses already quoted)

BilliardsBall said:
*I agree that doctrine shouldn't build on isolated verses, and that parts should work together.

Yes. The last quote below is an isolated verse.

BilliardsBall said:
I agree that I have a saving relationship with Christ, not a book.

I honestly dont think so. If so, the book would not be a foundation to know whether a person is right or wrong about a given belief they have of jesus.

Someones relationship with jesus does not involve a book. Thats the difference between sola scriptura (lack of better words) and lurtigical views: the bible is not a necessity to discover who is telling the truth and who is not. The latter, if you dont understand the truth of the bible, you dont understand christ.

BilliardsBall said:
*I agree that all proper interpretation is in context.

Thats why the verses you are quoting (and I am) are isolated. Since we cant quote the whole bible, its best to see if the verses I quote are something you understand not something I misinterpreted or misquoted.

If the bible is gods word (rather than jesus

), then Id assume our interpretations would say the same message regardless how we express it.

BilliardsBall said:
I think you misunderstand the purposes of deeds and judgment with believers. Believers will be judged for rewards, the more deeds they do as beloved volunteers, the more they suffer for Christ, the more rewards.

How do they get rewards if not for what they do?

BilliardsBall said:
I don't have a confirmation bias regarding the New Testament. As a Jew, I wanted to disbelieve Jesus--and knew I would lose many friends and family if I trusted Jesus for salvation. I savor now every word of God in both testaments

If not, you wouldnt see the bible as more important than other books. Also, referring your faith outside the bible and accepting outside sources supports your faith is an unbiased view. A bias view only looks at support that already defines ones own belief.

So, you believe in the NT. If you asked a god-question and looked in the Quran and found the answer, you may not take it seriously. If you looked in the bible, it becomes truth-the same question. Thats confirmed bias.

BilliardsBall said:
"What jesus did on the cross, that gift, manifests itself through faith and action. He doesnt just hand you a gift on a silver platter. Within that gift is a salvational action"

Actually, the bible says the opposite, so this is not a philosophical matter:

Eph 2: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

I read your verses but you dont address the ones I quoted. Unless the bible contradicts itself, address the verses. (I did read that one when looking it up. Isolated verse....extremely)

BilliardsBall said:
The gift on the silver platter has to do with Christ did, for the sake of paying God's justice, for the sake of God's love. Yes, a murderer or drug dealer can hit by a car, see the error of their ways, trust Jesus, drop dead and go to Heaven. Yes. ZERO deeds.

The bible says people are pardoned like children. If he did no get hit, then yes, deeds is important. But we dont know if the murderer did god deeds before he got hit by a car. Thats the difference.

BilliardsBall said:
Romans 4 says ZERO deeds are needed to be saved. ZERO. I worry for you because as I understand the Bible, IMHO, you may not be saved. I'm just not sure. I'm being honest with you.

You have to address the verses I posted.

BilliardsBall · Aug 9, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Real quick. Confirmed bias just means you confirm your statements and beliefs within sources that agree with your beliefs.

So, for example, if you did not have bias and had a question you can find answers (let's say right ones) from the Quran, Scientology journals, studies of psychology and religion, and Hindu culture.

But your source of reference goes back to what confirms your faith; the resources above don't and are contrary to it.

So your opinions are biased by the resources you use to confirm it.

Another bias is using the Bible to prove itself true. An unbias book is objective with many citations confirming or supporting a said statement. The Bible does not do that.

I don't care for bias when it harms people and belittles other people. It everyone has bias in one way or another. Your bias is making you subjective to a faith that you present as facts in an objective manner. Life doesn't work that way.

Some bias benefits others do not. But a lot of Us are ignorant to how our beliefs affect people. Abrahamics have been guilty of this for thousands of years.

It's not negative but you do have confirmed bias. It does shade hearing And seeing the truth (what's fact) in those who disagree with you and your belief. Comfort zone.

I'm out the house I'll get back but it's not just you. All 99.9 percent of christians I talk to have it. Something about religion makes you bias but talk about, say cars, you are all ears.

Yes, I have a strong bias. As a Jew, Jesus had to be in the OT or He was false. The Bible reading and study I did saved me. It is the best book, ever. I recognize and am comfortable with this bias.

The Bible also, despite what you shared with me as a friend, does say there are specific tools for interpretation--the Bible and the Spirit. We need both.

BilliardsBall · Aug 9, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Just those who also do deeds for god do not seperate what they of or him with what he did for them. They act in a relationship; its not onesided salvation.

I know about it. Its the same as knowing what a language says through translation but not getting it since I am not a native speaker nor of the culture to which that language originated and spoken.

I will never understand how someone over two thousand years ago save soemone today. I know what it says in the bible. I understand like I understand basic math. That doesnt mean the logistics of a man alreayd dead saving the living anymore than wondering how a chemist make a variable into a number with only one number to solve the equation (say X plus 2 equals Y). Dont ask.

Its a foregone conclusion

Yet, I myself, separate deeds from salvation and do deeds. I've given sacrificially many times, witnessed to many people, limited my freedom and comforts for the sake of Christ. Yet I totally separate what Jesus did for me from what I give back to Him. Biblically speaking, Christ died for enemies who after repentance offer Him works.

BilliardsBall · Aug 9, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Jesus didnt change the teachings of deeds. He just pointed out there are two types of deeds, righteous and unrighteous. Those who do righteous deeds, do so in, from, and with god. The source of their actions are not their own (unrighteous) but of god. (verses already quoted)

Yes. The last quote below is an isolated verse.

I honestly dont think so. If so, the book would not be a foundation to know whether a person is right or wrong about a given belief they have of jesus.

Someones relationship with jesus does not involve a book. Thats the difference between sola scriptura (lack of better words) and lurtigical views: the bible is not a necessity to discover who is telling the truth and who is not. The latter, if you dont understand the truth of the bible, you dont understand christ.

Thats why the verses you are quoting (and I am) are isolated. Since we cant quote the whole bible, its best to see if the verses I quote are something you understand not something I misinterpreted or misquoted.

If the bible is gods word (rather than jesus ), then Id assume our interpretations would say the same message regardless how we express it.

How do they get rewards if not for what they do?

If not, you wouldnt see the bible as more important than other books. Also, referring your faith outside the bible and accepting outside sources supports your faith is an unbiased view. A bias view only looks at support that already defines ones own belief.

So, you believe in the NT. If you asked a god-question and looked in the Quran and found the answer, you may not take it seriously. If you looked in the bible, it becomes truth-the same question. Thats confirmed bias.

I read your verses but you dont address the ones I quoted. Unless the bible contradicts itself, address the verses. (I did read that one when looking it up. Isolated verse....extremely)

The bible says people are pardoned like children. If he did no get hit, then yes, deeds is important. But we dont know if the murderer did god deeds before he got hit by a car. Thats the difference.

You have to address the verses I posted.

The simplest way to address the verses you posted is this: I have hundreds of verses saying salvation is a gift of the Cross, so your verses, being contradictory, must be wrong in context. I can sit there and do context for each verse but you see it the way you see it, right?

The other issue I see in your post--as a friend I say this--is that you feel I can have a better relationship with Jesus, who speaks personally to me on a rare basis, without the Bible. How can I study the life of Lincoln without reading and studying his speeches? How can I study under a professor by calling him on the phone once a year but not listening to his lectures and taking notes?

Don't over-spiritualize Christianity--it comes with a guidebook, available for study.

Until you agree that we have what Jesus said in a book, and that we can pick up the book right now, instead of waiting months or years to hear from Jesus otherwise, why would I "address" the verses you shared?

Unveiled Artist · Aug 9, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
The simplest way to address the verses you posted is this: I have hundreds of verses saying salvation is a gift of the Cross, so your verses, being contradictory, must be wrong in context. I can sit there and do context for each verse but you see it the way you see it, right?

The other issue I see in your post--as a friend I say this--is that you feel I can have a better relationship with Jesus, who speaks personally to me on a rare basis, without the Bible. How can I study the life of Lincoln without reading and studying his speeches? How can I study under a professor by calling him on the phone once a year but not listening to his lectures and taking notes?

Don't over-spiritualize Christianity--it comes with a guidebook, available for study.

Until you agree that we have what Jesus said in a book, and that we can pick up the book right now, instead of waiting months or years to hear from Jesus otherwise, why would I "address" the verses you shared?

Sorry. I just come from a different view that christianity is to be lived and the action of salvation is saying thank you to god because of faith and service to him.

It would be weird, if I put myself in a christians shoes, that I take salvation as a gift and don't do anything out of faith to which that gift represents.

A lot of (us) Catholics feel protestants are missing something: that devotion to Christ. That living. While I disagree only Catholics know the real Christ, I do agree that without living salvation it looks like empty following.

I can't change my opinion after knowing and participating around both sides. I mean, I went to Mass one time and they were talking about the sacredness of marriage. Not once did they mentioned LGBT issues.

I went to a protestant church (non denominational, Episcopal and other lurtigical cburches seem to lack the judgement of people)
talk on about sin, sinners, and actions and not the marriage itself.

Things like that and others make me think some of you guys go around the bush and now the point of these teachings. Especially with actions.

You say you do a lot of things as a christian, that's good. That's devotion. I just don't understand why you seperate that when that's part of the gift. It's Oneness. You not doing it put of obligation (right?) But your love for God.

Having differing views is fine but that doesn't negate that faith and righteous deeds from god are one with salvation and that gift is not isolated from the faith and grace behind it.

Unveiled Artist · Aug 12, 2018

@BilliardsBall

Something dawned on me of a good example of my point. It's English not spiritual

1. Faith without works is dead (with meaning they are together. Not one without the other. One needs faith to be saved. Salvation is also with works as this quote and others say in scripture)

That is very different from

2. Faith as a result of works is dead. In this case, works is used as the foundation to which faith is based on. As a result, the foundation is works that produces faith that saves you.

I am saying that first. You are saying the last.

We are talking pass each other because of English language differences.

1. When you have faith, in scripture as you quoted many times, that faith is leads to salvation. However, because with is not a result of but a combinational word, you read that verse as a unit not isolated from others that relate works to faith. They piggyback each other.

2. The latter is what you are speaking of. Faith as a result of works. That is not scripture. Salvation isn't as a result of works but with works and (not or nor below) faith.

The prepositions relate the two words in many scriptures together to where they are side by side.

Works: righteous deeds to, from, of and for God

Works: unrighteous deeds from self, man, for self away from god

There are two types of works in scripture so you have to talk about the right definition in order to address whether or not it's wrong. But looking at only one definition will always lead you away from god.

Salvation: by faith. Faith with-out works is dead. With is important.

Salvation is not as a result of works but a combination of it within faith. Big difference.

BilliardsBall · Aug 14, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
@BilliardsBall

Something dawned on me of a good example of my point. It's English not spiritual

1. Faith without works is dead (with meaning they are together. Not one without the other. One needs faith to be saved. Salvation is also with works as this quote and others say in scripture)

That is very different from

2. Faith as a result of works is dead. In this case, works is used as the foundation to which faith is based on. As a result, the foundation is works that produces faith that saves you.

I am saying that first. You are saying the last.

We are talking pass each other because of English language differences.

1. When you have faith, in scripture as you quoted many times, that faith is leads to salvation. However, because with is not a result of but a combinational word, you read that verse as a unit not isolated from others that relate works to faith. They piggyback each other.

2. The latter is what you are speaking of. Faith as a result of works. That is not scripture. Salvation isn't as a result of works but with works and (not or nor below) faith.

The prepositions relate the two words in many scriptures together to where they are side by side.

Works: righteous deeds to, from, of and for God

Works: unrighteous deeds from self, man, for self away from god

There are two types of works in scripture so you have to talk about the right definition in order to address whether or not it's wrong. But looking at only one definition will always lead you away from god.

Salvation: by faith. Faith with-out works is dead. With is important.

Salvation is not as a result of works but a combination of it within faith. Big difference.

Yet, I still cannot believe the Bible means something other than "faith and salvation are free gifts" when it says so.

Unveiled Artist · Aug 14, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Yet, I still cannot believe the Bible means something other than "faith and salvation are free gifts" when it says so.

Do you understand the difference between the two?

What I am saying is scriptural and directly from scripture. I just dont see the separation between righteous works (not your works but gods works/his salvation, through you) and faith.

If its one or the other, its a huge contradiction in scripture.

BilliardsBall · Aug 15, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Do you understand the difference between the two?

What I am saying is scriptural and directly from scripture. I just dont see the separation between righteous works (not your works but gods works/his salvation, through you) and faith.

If its one or the other, its a huge contradiction in scripture.

Do I understand the difference between faith/trust and salvation? I hope so. Salvation is the most important doctrine for any human to understand.

Faith/trust - I rely upon Jesus, not me, for eternal life

Salvation - eternal life

Unveiled Artist · Aug 15, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Do I understand the difference between faith/trust and salvation? I hope so. Salvation is the most important doctrine for any human to understand.

Faith/trust - I rely upon Jesus, not me, for eternal life

Salvation - eternal life

That's why. You're complete missing my point.

Do you know the difference between unrighteous work For salvation and righteous work With salvation?

BilliardsBall · Aug 16, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
That's why. You're complete missing my point.

Do you know the difference between unrighteous work For salvation and righteous work With salvation?

Yes, people without a relationship with Christ work to attempt to better themselves, however, for Heaven, perfection is required, not "better/good/very good."

Righteous work with salvation is asked by God--Christians who don't do works can experience chastisement (Hebrews 12, etc.) However, a person can trust Christ Monday morning, get hit by a car Monday afternoon, without having done any works, and be saved, because of the cross and because salvation is trusting Jesus.

Unveiled Artist · Aug 16, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Yes, people without a relationship with Christ work to attempt to better themselves, however, for Heaven, perfection is required, not "better/good/very good."

There is no requirement. I think you are missing the point: no requirement. No force. No obligation

BilliardsBall said:
Righteous work with salvation is asked by God--Christians who don't do works can experience chastisement (Hebrews 12, etc.)

However, a person can trust Christ Monday morning, get hit by a car Monday afternoon, without having done any works, and

The first one, salvation and righteous works correlate. You can't seperate the two

The latter, like children, I think god pardons them. Since many christians aren't in the same shoes as someone who didn't chose to get hit by a car, they have responsibilities to live doing work with/for/from Christ.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; galations 2:16 this is talking about works not confirming your faith and salvation on Christ. Unrighteous works. The Bible works as a unit. Therefore, all verses related to this and each other speak the same message. They don't need to be on the same book or sentence to be right.

This is what you speak of. Works from Us and by Us.

Scripture taught the opposite
26 Bible verses about Works Of Faith

James explains how works and faith are together.

Not one over the other.
Not faith required by works
Not salvation from works
He puts faith and works together and thereby through salvation by faith, it's not seperate from faith In ones work.

The verses above that mentions not from OUR work we are saved but through the work and faith we do IN and from Christ.

Prepositions are gravely important in scripture. Context and reading the book as a unit does as well.

BilliardsBall · Aug 17, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
There is no requirement. I think you are missing the point: no requirement. No force. No obligation

The first one, salvation and righteous works correlate. You can't seperate the two

The latter, like children, I think god pardons them. Since many christians aren't in the same shoes as someone who didn't chose to get hit by a car, they have responsibilities to live doing work with/for/from Christ.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; galations 2:16 this is talking about works not confirming your faith and salvation on Christ. Unrighteous works. The Bible works as a unit. Therefore, all verses related to this and each other speak the same message. They don't need to be on the same book or sentence to be right.

This is what you speak of. Works from Us and by Us.

Scripture taught the opposite
26 Bible verses about Works Of Faith

James explains how works and faith are together.

Not one over the other.
Not faith required by works
Not salvation from works
He puts faith and works together and thereby through salvation by faith, it's not seperate from faith In ones work.

The verses above that mentions not from OUR work we are saved but through the work and faith we do IN and from Christ.

Prepositions are gravely important in scripture. Context and reading the book as a unit does as well.

James does not disagree with the rest of the Bible. A living faith (trust in Christ) will produce works. However, one is not saved by one's own effort or works.

Hundreds of verses say salvation is a free gift, not sure why you disagree with the Bible here.

Also not sure why you "like" James, for example, but don't like Ephesians, that says, "saved by grace through faith NOT OF WORKS." The word NOT doesn't mean we "can take the Bible as one unit" to make NOT not say NOT.

Unveiled Artist · Aug 17, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
James does not disagree with the rest of the Bible. A living faith (trust in Christ) will produce works. However, one is not saved by one's own effort or works.

Hundreds of verses say salvation is a free gift, not sure why you disagree with the Bible here.

Also not sure why you "like" James, for example, but don't like Ephesians, that says, "saved by grace through faith NOT OF WORKS." The word NOT doesn't mean we "can take the Bible as one unit" to make NOT not say NOT.

You must read my point and context. You also need to read all the scriptures I post and see how they relate since the Bible works as a unit not by book.

James doesn't agree with the rest of the Bible????

Faith/deeds:

Ephesians 2: 8-9
You must read the verses I'm listing. They are about faith one and faith with deeds. They cannot be seperates or you are contradicting the Bible.

Whatever you do for others, you do for me. If you do not do for others, you do not do for Christ. If you don't do for Christ by what means are you saved?

Psalms 11:7
When you do good deeds in his presence you are living (not required; not ordered;not forced) living your salvation.

Mathew 6:1-4
All of these deeds are in/for/with Christ.

How can you seperate salvation from Christ from your relationship and life through him???

Mathew 6:1
I'm not talking about righteous deeds from self as if you have to gain salvation by earning. I'm saying that you are saved by what you do BY Christ. Christ being the motor of your action and lifestyle.

Your (you all) meaning people in general.

Those hundreds of scriptures do not (hopefully???) Contradict the scriptures I am posting.

They work as a unit. You must read them in full. I'm posting your type scriptures and the ones I find together because scripture should by Christian view compliment each other.

Ephesians 2:8 says you are not saved by your own effort. It does not say you are not saved by deeds but by the deeds done by you.

Another example is Christ and lazarath. Jesus did not need to wake lazarath from the dead because he already had faith in God his father. But because jesus has a full relationship with his father, his deeds are confirmed in obedience to his father.

When he says you can do the same by faith, he isn't excluding the things you do. He is saying faith is the foindation and motor to which deeds by the father are carried out.

It sounds like you're splitting salvation as if only one part of the book is true but the rest are not.

You must read what I'm posting
What does it mean that good works are the result of salvation?

Colossians 1:21
If deeds aren't important, you can do evil deeds and it won't affect your relationship/salvation in Christ. Got to read it backwards too. It's not all as written.

Ephesians 2:10
The good deeds in salvation are those that you do through Christ 8-9 through Christ not by oneself.

It's odd that James is seperate from scripture when it's in scripture. It works as a unit. James verses aren't isolated from Ephesians ans the gospels. James 2:26 in context means like Christ is both in body and spirit so should one be on Christ both body and in spirit.

Colossians 3:23-24
Deeds means you serve god. I that service is how you live in your salvation from Christ. It's not seperate.

James 2:18 is another good example. Works meaning from god NOT from self.

Hebrews 13:16 is another one that piggie backs James. Christ died because your flesh is sin. In order to free your spirit you did in your flesh. But to keep that gratitude it's not just mental but physical as well. It's not JUST what you believe

But what you believe, your faith, I'd a foundation of what you do. Your charity is considered works. And that works in Christ is living your salvation. There is no sense of being saved if you are not doing anything in means or using the gift in which you are given by grace.

Romans 2:6-10
This compliments James.

The Bible isn't isolated. Unless you view christianity and scripture different than most I'm at a total lost. Even JW believe in works but they don't like that word either inspite their evangelism for God.

Please read.

BilliardsBall · Aug 20, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
You must read my point and context. You also need to read all the scriptures I post and see how they relate since the Bible works as a unit not by book.

James doesn't agree with the rest of the Bible????

Faith/deeds:

Ephesians 2: 8-9
You must read the verses I'm listing. They are about faith one and faith with deeds. They cannot be seperates or you are contradicting the Bible.

Whatever you do for others, you do for me. If you do not do for others, you do not do for Christ. If you don't do for Christ by what means are you saved?

Psalms 11:7
When you do good deeds in his presence you are living (not required; not ordered;not forced) living your salvation.

Mathew 6:1-4
All of these deeds are in/for/with Christ.

How can you seperate salvation from Christ from your relationship and life through him???

Mathew 6:1
I'm not talking about righteous deeds from self as if you have to gain salvation by earning. I'm saying that you are saved by what you do BY Christ. Christ being the motor of your action and lifestyle.

Your (you all) meaning people in general.

Those hundreds of scriptures do not (hopefully???) Contradict the scriptures I am posting.

They work as a unit. You must read them in full. I'm posting your type scriptures and the ones I find together because scripture should by Christian view compliment each other.

Ephesians 2:8 says you are not saved by your own effort. It does not say you are not saved by deeds but by the deeds done by you.

Another example is Christ and lazarath. Jesus did not need to wake lazarath from the dead because he already had faith in God his father. But because jesus has a full relationship with his father, his deeds are confirmed in obedience to his father.

When he says you can do the same by faith, he isn't excluding the things you do. He is saying faith is the foindation and motor to which deeds by the father are carried out.

It sounds like you're splitting salvation as if only one part of the book is true but the rest are not.

You must read what I'm posting
What does it mean that good works are the result of salvation?

Colossians 1:21
If deeds aren't important, you can do evil deeds and it won't affect your relationship/salvation in Christ. Got to read it backwards too. It's not all as written.

Ephesians 2:10
The good deeds in salvation are those that you do through Christ 8-9 through Christ not by oneself.

It's odd that James is seperate from scripture when it's in scripture. It works as a unit. James verses aren't isolated from Ephesians ans the gospels. James 2:26 in context means like Christ is both in body and spirit so should one be on Christ both body and in spirit.

Colossians 3:23-24
Deeds means you serve god. I that service is how you live in your salvation from Christ. It's not seperate.

James 2:18 is another good example. Works meaning from god NOT from self.

Hebrews 13:16 is another one that piggie backs James. Christ died because your flesh is sin. In order to free your spirit you did in your flesh. But to keep that gratitude it's not just mental but physical as well. It's not JUST what you believe

But what you believe, your faith, I'd a foundation of what you do. Your charity is considered works. And that works in Christ is living your salvation. There is no sense of being saved if you are not doing anything in means or using the gift in which you are given by grace.

Romans 2:6-10
This compliments James.

The Bible isn't isolated. Unless you view christianity and scripture different than most I'm at a total lost. Even JW believe in works but they don't like that word either inspite their evangelism for God.

Please read.

Respectfully, you may not know that I've read the entire Bible multiple times in multiple versions. I've discussed the faith and works issues with all kinds of people as well. I've read these verses and discussed Hebrews 13, Romans 2, Ephesians 2 and etc. with many people, to help them with context.

Romans, for example, is one of the most difficult Bible books to fully comprehend. So, over the course of several years, I've memorized this book, over 400 verses. I've thought about Romans a LOT. Romans absolutely teaches that salvation is a free gift, which gift is not paid for by me, but by Jesus, while I was ignorant of Christ/His enemy/trying to be saved by religious works.

Have you ever offered gift to someone, let them accept it, then told them they owed you to pay for the gift? That's not a gift! I go to the supermarket, I pay for a gift card, I send it to you, your cost is nothing.

I understand, therefore, that it kind of seems the Bible is pushing works for salvation but it's instead pushing works for the already saved. I do works because I'm already saved, not to be saved in the future.

I understand also that you feel the Bible says works and salvation aren't separate, this despite clear statements in the Bible that "salvation is a gift NOT OF WORKS". However, Jesus died on the cross for human sin, not me, not you. It's a gift. Relax, enjoy it!

Unveiled Artist · Aug 20, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Respectfully, you may not know that I've read the entire Bible multiple times in multiple versions. I've discussed the faith and works issues with all kinds of people as well. I've read these verses and discussed Hebrews 13, Romans 2, Ephesians 2 and etc. with many people, to help them with context.

Romans, for example, is one of the most difficult Bible books to fully comprehend. So, over the course of several years, I've memorized this book, over 400 verses. I've thought about Romans a LOT. Romans absolutely teaches that salvation is a free gift, which gift is not paid for by me, but by Jesus, while I was ignorant of Christ/His enemy/trying to be saved by religious works.

Have you ever offered gift to someone, let them accept it, then told them they owed you to pay for the gift? That's not a gift! I go to the supermarket, I pay for a gift card, I send it to you, your cost is nothing.

I understand, therefore, that it kind of seems the Bible is pushing works for salvation but it's instead pushing works for the already saved. I do works because I'm already saved, not to be saved in the future.

I understand also that you feel the Bible says works and salvation aren't separate, this despite clear statements in the Bible that "salvation is a gift NOT OF WORKS". However, Jesus died on the cross for human sin, not me, not you. It's a gift. Relax, enjoy it!

I'll get back. All of those verses are a unit with the ones I already posted. They are not seperate or they would contradict each other.

Unveiled Artist · Aug 20, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Respectfully, you may not know that I've read the entire Bible multiple times in multiple versions. I've discussed the faith and works issues with all kinds of people as well. I've read these verses and discussed Hebrews 13, Romans 2, Ephesians 2 and etc. with many people, to help them with context.

What you are saying is not a contradiction. It just means you are separating something that scripture does not seperate at all

BilliardsBall said:
Romans, for example, is one of the most difficult Bible books to fully comprehend. So, over the course of several years, I've memorized this book, over 400 verses. I've thought about Romans a LOT. Romans absolutely teaches that salvation is a free gift, which gift is not paid for by me, but by Jesus, while I was ignorant of Christ/His enemy/trying to be saved by religious works.

Romans isn't as hard as revelations. I personally feel you (all) make spiritual text more complicated than it needs to be to have the same affect.

BilliardsBall said:
I understand, therefore, that it kind of seems the Bible is pushing works for salvation but it's instead pushing works for the already saved. I do works because I'm already saved, not to be saved in the future.

Let me break up my point. You're stuck on something I corrected you on a lot.

I said: the Bible says works and faith consider in relation to ones salvation

It's your preference to see works as result of salvation. Neither what we are saying is wrong. You just hsve a different preference in seeing works in relation to ones salvation. Nothing wrong with that.

BilliardsBall said:
I understand also that you feel the Bible says works and salvation aren't separate, this despite clear statements in the Bible that "salvation is a gift NOT OF WORKS". However, Jesus died on the cross for human sin, not me, not you. It's a gift. Relax, enjoy it!

You gotta address the scripture I posted first.

Works are NOT required to be saved; it is NOT for salvation. It'd not forced.

It's part of that gift.

You receive it
You use it
You love it
You say thank you

I never said salvation is given by works. You must read what I am saying. I'm picking your post out little by little.

Salvation is works and faith together (You MUST address the scriptures I'm giving you)

I never said salvation is works

Please read my posts actively cause I'm repeatedly correcting you on what I said and hoping you address the scriptures and make new points relating to what I'm saying.

JasonL · Aug 20, 2018

God can talk to us in many ways. He can give us specific thoughts or feeling, or talk through a dream to us. But Hhe can also speak aloud to us, just as He did to Moses for example. But the question is if we are willing to listen to Him. How many people say "I already had a bad feeling about doing this", after something bad happened to them? Everyone can hear from God if he only wants to.

Unveiled Artist · Aug 20, 2018

JasonL said:
God can talk to us in many ways. He can give us specific thoughts or feeling, or talk through a dream to us. But Hhe can also speak aloud to us, just as He did to Moses for example. But the question is if we are willing to listen to Him. How many people say "I already had a bad feeling about doing this", after something bad happened to them? Everyone can hear from God if he only wants to.

Without the bible, what's specific about the Christian creator blessings and communications method that no other god/creator religions have?

In other words, if I had not read the Bible nor knew anything about it, how would I know it's the Christian god that have me dreams and blessings and not another god or spirit or ancestor?

How do I differientiate a dream from the Christian god or an ancestor without consulting the Bible?

Unveiled Artist · Aug 20, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Respectfully, you may not know that I've read the entire Bible multiple times in multiple versions. I've discussed the faith and works issues with all kinds of people as well. I've read these verses and discussed Hebrews 13, Romans 2, Ephesians 2 and etc. with many people, to help them with context.

Romans, for example, is one of the most difficult Bible books to fully comprehend. So, over the course of several years, I've memorized this book, over 400 verses. I've thought about Romans a LOT. Romans absolutely teaches that salvation is a free gift, which gift is not paid for by me, but by Jesus, while I was ignorant of Christ/His enemy/trying to be saved by religious works.

Have you ever offered gift to someone, let them accept it, then told them they owed you to pay for the gift? That's not a gift! I go to the supermarket, I pay for a gift card, I send it to you, your cost is nothing.

I understand, therefore, that it kind of seems the Bible is pushing works for salvation but it's instead pushing works for the already saved. I do works because I'm already saved, not to be saved in the future.

I understand also that you feel the Bible says works and salvation aren't separate, this despite clear statements in the Bible that "salvation is a gift NOT OF WORKS". However, Jesus died on the cross for human sin, not me, not you. It's a gift. Relax, enjoy it!

I meant to ask, Why is the book of James not relevant to scripture?

If some books are relevant and others are not, then the to me, it seems like youre using the bible to correlate with what you already believe rather than being comfortable with stuff in the bible of the fact its in there and grow from there. Religious text arent supposed to be comfortable. It makes you question and grow not accept what makes sense to you and disregard the rest.

The works talked about in James doesnt contradict the rest of scripture. Works is all throughout scripture in relation to faith and hence salvation. Not as and not for but part of.

He is just emphasising faith without works is dead. You need faith to be saved. Your faith is dead (there is no value) without the works that go with it. Hence why they are interconnected.

I dont take the bible vertatum (or any book for that matter). I read it and think it through without depending on other peoples words and translations to understand it for myself. Too much dependency means idoism.

God talking

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