iam1me
Active Member
These aren't instances of "false gods." Jesus even explicitly defends the usage of the term when applied to the Jewish people:
John 10:35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
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Jesus is not God Almighty Himself
- Thread starter iam1me
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These aren't instances of "false gods." Jesus even explicitly defends the usage of the term when applied to the Jewish people:
John 10:35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
They don't technically say "God" either. YHVH (In English we pronounce this Yahweh or Jehovah -- Jews never use this name). is written, but everywhere that is written "Adonai" (Lord) is said. There are also nuanced names of god such as Elohim, El, Yah, and whatever that just get translated to one thing in English. It's impossible to determine context in English translation.
For example, Elohim is a masculine noun with plural. (It implies more than one... or to be "in front" of other gods.) It sort of silently admits there is more than one.
InChrist
Free4ever
Clearly, not all Jews disbelieved the Messiah would be God incarnate, since all the first Christians were Jews,
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20: 27-29
iam1me
Active Member
They don't technically say "God" either. YHVH (In English we pronounce this Yahweh or Jehovah -- Jews never use this name). is written, but everywhere that is written "Adonai" (Lord) is said. There are also nuanced names of god such as Elohim, El, Yah, and whatever that just get translated to one thing in English. It's impossible to determine context in English translation.
For example, Elohim is a masculine noun with plural. (It implies more than one... or to be "in front" of other gods.) It sort of silently admits there is more than one.
They do say God. "El" = God. As a contemporary example of the term, think of Superman: Kal-EL, Jor-EL. Of course, this is only one way to address God, and it is not his proper name.
Traditionally, Jews tend to only speak/write God's name in Hebrew. However, this is not always the case - as with the Septuigant where it is translated as "ho on" - the one who is/the being.
The scriptures definitely support the notion that there are many gods, in some sense of the word. Understanding what is meant by there being many gods, however, requires more than grammar - ti requires studying the usage of the term in the scriptures.
Also, it's imperative to mention that there is nothing unique about Jesus being a son of god as that is a common understanding for all humans via Psalms. What you basically have here is a bunch of Jews that considered Jesus a prophet, but they did not deify him anymore than anyone else would be considered divine. Post 'creed' this teaching is downplayed and Jesus is the only son, etc... However, in relation to modern Christians that belief completely dies off and is no longer relevant. Certainly, the bible doesn't reflect the update but there is more to the faith than the books.
InChrist
Free4ever
That verse in John is a quote from Psalm 82 and it was quoted to make the point that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge (God), and what does the rest of Psalm 82 say about these gods?
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.” Psalm 82:6-7
I'm asking, why do the Jews not use the Torah to support the idea that God can be incarnate. If you ask a Jew if God can be a human, they will say that that this is a blasphemous concept according to the scripture. If this idea were present in the Torah, they would say that yes the Torah does support this idea, but we don't believe Jesus was God incarnate. We are awaiting a different God incarnate.
iam1me
Active Member
Jesus is not quoting the verse to make a point about justice/impartiality, but because the passage calls them "gods" - the very thing they are accusing him of saying concerning himself (though he corrects this notion and asserts the lesser claim: "I am God's Son.")
Whatever Jews believe, the Tanakh and the English version of the Bible say the same thing in Psalms 82:6
As you read this verse you see what seems to claim that humans are gods. I'm asking, why have no Jewish scholars of the Torah taken that meaning from this verse? It would appear that they did not understand that from the verse, possibly due to linguistic points that make this verse metaphorical to those with knowledge. Why did the Jews not glean that humans are gods according to this verse? Because they were wrong, or because it doesn't mean that?Whatever Jews believe, the Tanakh and the English version of the Bible say the same thing in Psalms 82:6
Actually the refutation is in John 10:33-34 , this is where Jesus is about to be punished for claiming he is the son of god and explains that it is already mentioned in Psalms that they are as well. We could argue that:
1) From the perspective of the Gospel of John and the Jews which considered Jesus a prophet at the time and full well understood the meaning of Psalms in a contemporary sense that they knew exactly what it meant.
2) At this time, the Jew/Christian understanding hasn't diverged in regard to OT passages. Jews and Christians aren't much different.
3) There is always a difference between the faiths mentioned and the scriptures. But, neither embrace this concept.
InChrist
Free4ever
What do you mean you are awaiting a different God incarnate?
Paul was a Jew and a Pharisee who used to Torah ...
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.”
Acts 17:1-3
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Conscripted Tanakh texts don't count here. They had ONE God, and Jesus taught Tanakh = ONE GOD. No trinity.
Luke 2:11 says savior which in this verse equals the awaited Jewish Messiah, not God/YHVH.
As for Titus it is interesting that AND OUR is left out. Two different beings.
KJV Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (God, AND his Messiah, at the end.)
The 1568 Bishop's has a comma, - as does the 1587 Geneva, - showing it is two separate beings. Note the lower case saviour.
Tit 2:11 For that grace of God, that bringeth saluation vnto all men, hath appeared,
Tit 2:12 And teacheth vs that we should denie vngodlinesse and worldly lusts, and that we should liue soberly and righteously, and godly in this present world,
Tit 2:13 Lokyng for that blessed hope and appearyng of the glorie of the great God, and our sauiour Iesus Christe,
Act 20:21 Witnessing both to the Iewes, and to the Grecians the repentance towarde God, and faith toward our Lord Iesus Christ. (Again two different beings)
Act 20:24 But I passe not at all, neither is my life deare vnto my selfe, so that I may fulfill my course with ioye, and the ministration which I haue receiued of the Lorde Iesus, to testifie the Gospell of the grace of God.
As for Luke read the whole thing.
Luk 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Luk 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Luk 2:15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
Luk 2:16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.
Luk 2:17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.
Luk 2:18 And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.
Luk 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.
Luk 2:20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them. (They went back to their flocks and praised YHVH for the promised Messiah Jesus.)(see 11 and 17)
Luk 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Luk 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Luk 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
Luk 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.
Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. (Messiah)
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, (YHVH's messiah)
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
*
I mean that the Jews reject Jesus was the messiah. That is one point. Another point is that Jews completely reject the idea that God can be a man or a man can be God in the flesh. If I say why do the Jews reject God in the flesh, one may be tempted to say, well they reject Jesus so what do they know! My point is that even if they deny Jesus was God in the flesh, if the scripture maintained that the messiah WOULD BE God in the flesh, they could still maintain belief in the concept while rejecting that Jesus was the messiah they were waiting for. Paul is merely trying to convince them that Jesus is the messiah, not that the messiah is God incarnate.
InChrist
Free4ever
It may be true that the majority of Jews reject Jesus, but as I said previously not ALL Jews did during the time of Christ or today. Paul certainly believed that Jesus was the Messiah and God incarnate, as did the other (Jewish) apostles and believers...
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Tim. 3:16
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20: 27-29
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-14
Today many Jewish people are placing their faith in Jesus as Messiah and God their Savior, more than at any time in history besides the the time of Christ ...
I MET MESSIAH (Jewish Testimonies) - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry
InChrist
Free4ever
I agree that the Tanakh clearly taught ONE God. This was very important for the people to understand since they were surrounding by polytheistic cultures. Nevertheless, the OT does give references to plurality within this ONE God and the NT more fully expounds God's revelation concerning His triune nature. Jesus demonstrated that He was God and accepted without rebuking those who worshiped Him.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
If it were otherwise we would not be able to make a threesome on the golf greens every second Thursday at dawn.You have no understanding of the trinity at all, and I'm a Satanist.
it works like this
Son is God
Father is God
Holy spirit is God
But none of those are each other....
God is basically a composite of these based on Christian doctrine or encompasses all of them, but also exists independently... Best to say these other things are manifestations of the one.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
No there is no plurality in the Jewish YHVH. Christians mistake texts about his power doing something, or his grace, etc. However these are never separate triune BEINGS in one God. It is just the way they write about his power in action.
And HOW did Jesus demonstrate that he was God?
Read without triune prejudges, in the Gospels, - Jesus never says he is God.
He only claims to be the awaited Jewish Messiah.
Since he does claim to be the Messiah, - don't you think if he was YHVH he would tell people? Just as he did saying he was the Messiah?
He teaches Tanakh which has ONE God
He prays to YHVH.
*
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I don't agree with this translation. I also believe 20:28 is taken out of context. I have a paper on it somewhere but can't find it right now- so - short version.
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my theos.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
This story is telling us that one of the chosen whom was supposed to have listened, learned, understood, and thence had faith, - instead "is "faithless."
Jesus has to have him actually touch to believe.
A contrite Thomas says what? "...My Lord and my theos." Theos also means JUDGE. He understands Jesus is judging him as faithless. He says "...My Lord and my JUDGE.
This is made plain in the next line where Jesus says "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed" and the Judge goes on with the judgment = blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
I think Thomas is in deep do-do, - he had no faith and had TO SEE, and Jesus said those who have NOT SEEN, and believed, are the ones whom are BLESSED.
*
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Its wording, nothing complicated. Prepositions are used to relate two words in a sentence with a clause. The words Of, As, In, By separate two words even though they are related to each other. Also, conjunction words such as And shows two or more things related to each other.
The trinity, by definition, is a relationship between three ideas, things, or people etc. So, the creator, spirit, and savior are interconnected; and, that interconnection is called trinity.
Its also perspective
Jesus is gods son (relationship by family)
Jesus and the father are one (relationship between two people makes them one in nature)
Jesus is doing the will of his father (rather than As his father)
Trinitarians say if there is a relationship, that relationship makes the two people one in nature. So instead of seeing the word relationship as two people related to each other, because of their relation, they cant tell the difference between the two. If jesus and the creator were separate and there is only one god, that would be bothersome; so, to make jesus one with the creator they see him as god.
Non-triniatarians dont see this in concept and context. Its very literal and they go off prepositions and conjunctions to explain the relationship without saying one is the other.
The two views are basically alike just one party sees it literal and the other, though denied because of the divinity of it, concept and context.
Jesus is god: Relationship makes them one and the same
Jesus is not god: Relationship relates (not combines) two seperate people one in goal.
Some christians dont see jesus with any concept of divinity; but, that confuses me. If jesus was human just as us, what about him makes him human given his his place and role.
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