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If there is the devil, why did God create him?

Super Universe

Defender of God
How do angels produce other angels? I don't believe it's a biological function. Supernatural might be one description but not one I would use. It's just something we don't yet understand but I think when we have a good theory about the nature of the energy that makes up string theory we will be much closer.

Why would the universe need workers? Why does a country need workers? Do you think everything is done already? Do you think a planet like the earth just happens on it's own? Do you think sentience comes from genetics? Do you think DNA made itself?

Look at Venus, Mars, and all the other planetaries in our solar system, why isn't there life all around if it's so easy? It has to be planned, it doesn't happen by accident. The universe is actually quite hostile towards life. The laws of physics don't create life. When have you seen a chemical wake up and ask where it came from?

The sentient being population in the universe is growing so there are more and more life experiences available each day. Each of these live's has an afterlife. They will need instruction on how to gain entry into heaven. We have a long ways to go, the earth is only first grade and the next step is second grade.

There's more to the Lucifer Rebellion and there are other interpretations of what happened, even Saddam Hussein has some supporters. Do not see Lucifer as a truly evil being, his mistake was violating the laws of his kind so he will be judged by his kind.

Basically God is given credit for and blamed for much more than He has actually done.
He does not make a law (free will for all) then violate it. God's moral laws apply to Him, not to us, and the physical laws control matter and energy so the universe can keep itself in balance.

Lucifer did not violate any law from God, he violated those of his own kind.
 

Real Sorceror

Pirate Hunter
Super Universe said:
How do angels produce other angels? I don't believe it's a biological function. Supernatural might be one description but not one I would use. It's just something we don't yet understand but I think when we have a good theory about the nature of the energy that makes up string theory we will be much closer.

Do you believe angles have physical bodies or are they just pure energy?
Why would the universe need workers? Why does a country need workers? Do you think everything is done already? Do you think a planet like the earth just happens on it's own? Do you think sentience comes from genetics? Do you think DNA made itself?
God already established the inner workings of the universe. The universe can run fine all by itself. God and His angels don't need to micro-manage all the little details.

Look at Venus, Mars, and all the other planetaries in our solar system, why isn't there life all around if it's so easy? It has to be planned, it doesn't happen by accident. The universe is actually quite hostile towards life. The laws of physics don't create life. When have you seen a chemical wake up and ask where it came from?
I agree. Life springing from nothing is rather inoncievable. However, I do believe God created the laws of evolution. Evolution has its merits and has solid and abundant evidence.
There's more to the Lucifer Rebellion and there are other interpretations of what happened, even Saddam Hussein has some supporters. Do not see Lucifer as a truly evil being, his mistake was violating the laws of his kind so he will be judged by his kind.
Basically God is given credit for and blamed for much more than He has actually done.
He does not make a law (free will for all) then violate it. God's moral laws apply to Him, not to us, and the physical laws control matter and energy so the universe can keep itself in balance.
Lucifer did not violate any law from God, he violated those of his own kind.
I see. :)
 

Truth101

Member
Genna said:
Here is what I found on the internet,

original sin
n.
In Christian theology, the condition of sin that marks all humans as a result of Adam's first act of disobedience.

http://www.answers.com/topic/original-sin

So this belief of "original sin" is that Adam's disobedience was an act of sin. Sin is evil, as PetShopBoy88 said, how did Adam choose to do evil before he knew what evil was? Did not the tree give him understanding of good and evil?
Hi Genna, I believe everyone is just giving either an indoctrinated view or a mere carnal view of your questions. I cannot see one answer to your question which holds true according to scripture even though the whole core of your question originates from scripture. So with that being said since your question is concerning a scriptural topic than scripture itself should be able to answer your questions.
Lets see exactly why sin was present in the garden. The sin came long before Adam or Eve actually ate of the fruit of the tree.
Sin is committed from the heart not merely in action. Listen to Jesus when addressing adultery "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Mat 5:28.
We know that there are 3 core sins which all sin branches from, lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Lets see where Eve actually sinned.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
The sin came long before she actually took of the fruit and ate it. This sinful nature was created in the heart of Adam and Eve.
We are told in Genesis that after God created everything He said it was "good". Did this mean it was good and not evil? No. Since God creates light and darkness and good and evil this cannot be true. The truth is that it was good for what God had created it for. God also created Satan evil as an adversary of man not God. Satan is required to give an account to God on a regular basis as we are told in Job. The name lucifer is not a name at all but a mistranslation. That parable containing the word lucifer is a parable to the king of babylon not Satan. Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. The serpent was more subtle than all the "beasts of the field whom the Lord God had made"
The sin that was past down to all man was the actual act of Adams sin but the sinful nature is created in all men to begin with. It all comes from the heart which God had created and placed in mankind. All mankind.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
The creature (all mankind) was made (or created) in vanity, Not of their own freewill but by the will of God who has subjected these same vain creatures in hope of their salvation being made whole as the wicked demon possessed man whom Jesus cast the demons out of. He was made whole at the feat of Jesus fully clothed in his right mind. This is the creatures hope also, to be made whole and their nakedness covered.
The only way to escape this is to be cleansed and purified either through the fire of the holy spirit which cleanses us from all unrightiousness here in our lifetime or through the lake of fire which shall burn away all wickedness but all is possible because of Christ.
Now the reason for making some vessils of honor (who are purified now by the spirit) and some vessels of dishonour (those purified through the lake of fire) is...
Vessels of dishonor: Are made this way for the soul purpose of God making His wrath and power known to all through these vessels of dishonor. (Rom 9:22)
Vessels of honor: Are made this way for the soul purpose of God making known the riches of His glory through these vessels of honor. (Rom 9:23)
It is not of ourselves lest any man should boast.

I hope this answers your question.

God Bless, Dave

 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Genna said:
I searched long and hard and cannot find the name Satan in the Old Testament Bible, where is it?
Try the Book of Job.

btw, in the Hebrew sciptures, "Satan" is not a name. It is a title or descriptor. Ha-Satan means "the adversary."
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Real Sorceror said:
Do you believe angles have physical bodies or are they just pure energy?
There are many types of angels with varying capabilities depending on their designed purpose. They can appear to have physical bodies but I think they are pure sentient energy.
Real Sorceror said:
God already established the inner workings of the universe. The universe can run fine all by itself. God and His angels don't need to micro-manage all the little details.
Sure if all you want is rocks and radiation, but if you want sentient life you have to plan for it. God certainly does not micro-manage all the little details but the initial start of a new life experiment is always a very detailed study of the host planet performed by genetic engineers (angels) to find the type of lifeforms best suited to it.
Real Sorceror said:
I agree. Life springing from nothing is rather inoncievable. However, I do believe God created the laws of evolution. Evolution has its merits and has solid and abundant evidence.
Evolution is a built in control. If the wolf population drops then the deer population increases, this increase provides more food opportunity for the wolves that should then make a comeback and reduce the deer population. It's smart.

But there is no law that gives life to a chemical, that only comes from the spirit that chooses to join with a capable host.
 

Real Sorceror

Pirate Hunter
Super Universe said:
There are many types of angels with varying capabilities depending on their designed purpose. They can appear to have physical bodies but I think they are pure sentient energy.
Makes sense I suppose. God is basically sentient energy.
Sure if all you want is rocks and radiation, but if you want sentient life you have to plan for it. God certainly does not micro-manage all the little details but the initial start of a new life experiment is always a very detailed study of the host planet performed by genetic engineers (angels) to find the type of lifeforms best suited to it.
Thats your personal view I suppose. I don't have any way to prove or disprove it either way.

Evolution is a built in control. If the wolf population drops then the deer population increases, this increase provides more food opportunity for the wolves that should then make a comeback and reduce the deer population. It's smart.
Animal population is hardly what evolution is about. Evolution exists to ensure that species survuve and diversify.
But there is no law that gives life to a chemical, that only comes from the spirit that chooses to join with a capable host.
You seem fixed on the aspect of chemicals becoming bacteria. Do you believe/disbelieve the later parts of evolution? Like fish evolving into amphibians?
 

Genna

Member
WOW, so many opinions from so many religious backgrounds and from atheists! Not sure what to believe as a former atheist. It does appear that the name/title satan/lucifer is common among most religions and that it seems like an offshoot of Orthodox Christianity. This is why I mainly cite passages from the bible. How do I know which to believe? :help:
 

Real Sorceror

Pirate Hunter
Genna said:
WOW, so many opinions from so many religious backgrounds and from atheists! Not sure what to believe as a former atheist. It does appear that the name/title satan/lucifer is common among most religions and that it seems like an offshoot of Orthodox Christianity. This is why I mainly cite passages from the bible. How do I know which to believe? :help:
I go with intuition. Whichever one feels right and makes the most sense. It may be that we are all right to some degree.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Satan one of the first angels? Satan, Lucifer, Caligastia, and Beelzebub are not all the same being. They are all individual beings involved in the Lucifer led rebellion.

Lucifer is a being created by other powerful angels. He is of the early type when they were more powerful than those who came after. Lucifer did not know God, he did not meet Him in any way just as no being, angel or otherwise, meets God (Creator Son's excepted) until they have earned their way into heaven.
How do angels produce other angels? I don't believe it's a biological function. Supernatural might be one description but not one I would use. It's just something we don't yet understand but I think when we have a good theory about the nature of the energy that makes up string theory we will be much closer.
Where did you all this, Super Universe?

It looks like angels can reproduce biologically. They seemed to be able to mate with mortal women as can be seen in Genesis 6, and reproduce the Nephilim (giants). Can angel mate with angel in the same way? Possibly.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
gnostic said:
Where did you all this, Super Universe?

It looks like angels can reproduce biologically. They seemed to be able to mate with mortal women as can be seen in Genesis 6, and reproduce the Nephilim (giants). Can angel mate with angel in the same way? Possibly.

Yeah, the Nephilim were descendants of Adam and Eve (Elohim/angels) who mated with the local humanoid tribes to produce some strange things.

Angels are created, one way or another.

Real Sorceror said:
Animal population is hardly what evolution is about. Evolution exists to ensure that species survuve and diversify.
My explanation of one aspect of evolution was very simplified way of saying that God is smart in the way He set up the universe. Evolution and physics are laws that control complex systems. I don't understand how some religious followers can't seem to accept this?
Real Sorceror said:
You seem fixed on the aspect of chemicals becoming bacteria. Do you believe/disbelieve the later parts of evolution? Like fish evolving into amphibians?
If we assemble all the elements of any living being does it then activate and become alive?
 

Real Sorceror

Pirate Hunter
Super Universe said:
My explanation of one aspect of evolution was very simplified way of saying that God is smart in the way He set up the universe. Evolution and physics are laws that control complex systems. I don't understand how some religious followers can't seem to accept this?
Some people refuse evolution becuase it does not line up with the Biblical account. I deal with these people everyday at TOL. They refuse any argument or evidence you put before them.
If we assemble all the elements of any living being does it then activate and become alive?
I see what you're saying. A body is lifeless without a spirit/soul.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
PetShopBoy88 said:
Which is something I find to be equally logical if you know that insurance companies are perfect, and you have always lived under the benevolent care of an insurance company, never needing to commit fraud because they're never cheating you or anything.

Since when does a person need to be cheated by an insurance company to commit insurance fraud?

Don't blame God for what a sentient being chooses to do with their existence.

I blame God for knowing the terror that people like Hitler or Bin Laden would cause and then creating them anyway.

Katz said:
I'm confused as to why so many people think God created an evil being and called him Lucifer and get him up to suffer forever. What's so hard about believing that God created a "being" who was neither inately good or evil, but who consciously made some significantly "evil" choices, thereby shaping his own destiny?

I don't think God created an evil being Katz. I think that God created a being whom he knew would definately become evil. Surely that would mess up the world that God created, and surely God would know this. And yet God allowed it all to happen anyway.

if you knew for a fact that something bad was going to happen, and you had the power to stop it, yet you didn't, doesn't that mean you are to blame?

If Joe the school kid next door was going to take a gun to school and kill his teachers, and you knew it, and you made no attempts to stop him, would you not be partially to blame for the deaths he caused?

Super Universe said:
God does not personally make anyone. He does not personally make the wind blow or the rain fall. The universe is a complete system that runs itself. God is not running here and there adjusting levers and throwing switches.

Didn't God make Adam and eve? If God made nothing himself, how did everything start? How did things progress from when God was the only thing?

Look at Venus, Mars, and all the other planetaries in our solar system, why isn't there life all around if it's so easy? It has to be planned, it doesn't happen by accident. The universe is actually quite hostile towards life. The laws of physics don't create life. When have you seen a chemical wake up and ask where it came from?

Because the things that are required for life arent there. All life really requires to exist is liquid water. There are places on Earth that are so hostile that people thought for ages that life couldn't exist there. But we've found life there. it appears that life will certainly arise wherever the conditions are right. You can't point to a place where conditions are wrong and claim that the lack of life there says otherwise.

They can appear to have physical bodies but I think they are pure sentient energy.

You've been watching too much Star Trek. Energy can't possibly exist like that. Energy isn't confined the way the energy creatures in Star trek are. energy radiates out and continues until something intereferes, like light from a lightbulb.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Tiberius said:
I blame God for knowing the terror that people like Hitler or Bin Laden would cause and then creating them anyway.

I don't think God created an evil being Katz. I think that God created a being whom he knew would definately become evil. Surely that would mess up the world that God created, and surely God would know this. And yet God allowed it all to happen anyway.
You're not an atheist. You're a theist who is angry at what you understand to be God.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Tiberius said:
I don't think God created an evil being Katz. I think that God created a being whom he knew would definately become evil. Surely that would mess up the world that God created, and surely God would know this. And yet God allowed it all to happen anyway.

if you knew for a fact that something bad was going to happen, and you had the power to stop it, yet you didn't, doesn't that mean you are to blame?
Well, it sounds like a lose-lose proposition to me. God could refuse to allow evil to exist, but in order to do that, he'd have to take away our free will. With no free will and no evil anywhere, nothing much could go wrong, could it?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Tiberius said:
I blame God for knowing the terror that people like Hitler or Bin Laden would cause and then creating them anyway.

Ah, so you don't blame them for their choice, you instead blame God for creating the universe? Have you never done anything wrong? If so, by your own logic, then you should not have been created.

Tell me the one thing that is lasting... Your car? It will give you 10 years. Your body? It will give you about 90 years if you're lucky. The earth? I don't know, 10 billion more years and then it's gone. There's only one thing that is lasting and that is what you take with you in the afterlife. Don't blame God for giving you the chance to learn what cannot be learned otherwise.

Tiberius said:
I don't think God created an evil being Katz. I think that God created a being whom he knew would definately become evil. Surely that would mess up the world that God created, and surely God would know this. And yet God allowed it all to happen anyway.

if you knew for a fact that something bad was going to happen, and you had the power to stop it, yet you didn't, doesn't that mean you are to blame?

If Joe the school kid next door was going to take a gun to school and kill his teachers, and you knew it, and you made no attempts to stop him, would you not be partially to blame for the deaths he caused?
The universe was not created for life on earth. Life on earth was created for the universe. What if I told you that Joe's teachers met him in the afterlife and forgave him for his wrongs and only then were all of them able to continue on the path toward heaven?

Tiberius said:
Didn't God make Adam and eve? If God made nothing himself, how did everything start? How did things progress from when God was the only thing?
Adam and Eve were genetic engineers (angels) who volunteered to come to the earth to teach the primitive humans many things, one of which was a basic theory of the Creator. God is creating the universe now. His action did not end with the big bang, the big bang is still happening.
Tiberius said:
Because the things that are required for life arent there. All life really requires to exist is liquid water. There are places on Earth that are so hostile that people thought for ages that life couldn't exist there. But we've found life there. it appears that life will certainly arise wherever the conditions are right. You can't point to a place where conditions are wrong and claim that the lack of life there says otherwise.
There is plenty of water on mars but it is frozen as ice because of the extreme cold and not enough pressure in the atmosphere. Life does not arise when the conditions are right, it expands into it. Assemble all the ingredients that make up any living thing and wait for it to come to life. You will be waiting a long time.

Tiberius said:
You've been watching too much Star Trek. Energy can't possibly exist like that. Energy isn't confined the way the energy creatures in Star trek are. energy radiates out and continues until something intereferes, like light from a lightbulb.

The world's top physicists are working on string theory. It's a little idea that filaments of some energy vibrate and create the universe. What do you think is emitting the filaments of this strange "Star Trek" energy?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
lilithu said:
You're not an atheist. You're a theist who is angry at what you understand to be God.

And...

Real Sorceror said:
That certianly seems to be the case.

And you are qualified to judge me why?

I can assure you that I am an atheist. And I'll thank both of you to not judge me like that. I was pointing out that IF God exists he is to blame. I was merely structuring my argument in a way so as to only deal with the things that theists believe.

If you read my other posts on this site, you'll know that my answer to the problem of suffering is this:

God doesn't eliminate the suffering and evil caused by the devil because God and the devil are both non-existent. Suffering is caused either by natural events that are not related to the morality of humans in any way (so earthquakes aren't God punishing us), nor is it caused by the devil tempting us. Suffering caused by the evil of Humans is due to people. I don't see any need for God or Satan to be involved.

However, the theist will be unwilling to accept this. They will try to find a solution that includes a God and devil. So, my post was saying that if this is accepted, then God created a being that he knew would cause untold suffering and still allowed it to happen, thus he must accept some of the blame.

But don't for a moment think that you're in a position to know my beliefs about God better than I do.
 

may

Well-Known Member
Genna said:
I am not sure if this has been asked before, but God obviously knew the devil was going to be the epitome of evil, so why did he create him? And doesn't the bible say somewhere that the devil is intrinsically evil? God consciously created the devil whilst knowing full well that he was going to pave a path of destrucion, why? seems odd..
Satan the devil means ....slanderer..... and ..... opposer .....so he made himself these things that is why he was named satan and devil he was given those names after his rebellion, before that time he was not a devil and satan . he had freewill the same as we have freefill
 

may

Well-Known Member
Genna said:
I am not sure if this has been asked before, but God obviously knew the devil was going to be the epitome of evil, so why did he create him? And doesn't the bible say somewhere that the devil is intrinsically evil? God consciously created the devil whilst knowing full well that he was going to pave a path of destrucion, why? seems odd..
everything that Jehovah creates is very good , perfect is his activity.
Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God.
Perfection of any other person or thing, then, is relative, not absolute.
Satan brought up the Issue
of Sovereignty . When Satan approached Eve (through the speech of the serpent), he actually challenged the rightfulness and righteousness of Jehovah’s sovereignty. He intimated that God was unrightfully withholding something from the woman; he also declared that God was a liar in saying that she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Additionally, Satan made her believe she would be free and independent of God, becoming like God. By this means this wicked spirit creature raised himself higher than God in Eve’s eyes, and Satan became her god, even though Eve, at the time, apparently did not know the identity of the one misleading her. By his action he brought man and woman under his leadership and control, standing up as a rival god in opposition to Jehovah.—Ge 3:1-7. and the rulership goes on 1 John 5;19 but soon he will be cast out for good
(John 12:31) Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
 
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