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Are Muslim Women Oppressed, or Most Free Women in the World?

Ezzedean

Active Member
gnostic said:
Actually Ezzedan, you make it all sounds like Muslims men are weak-minded and weak-willed, if you can't control yourself, if a woman is exposing their forearms, calves and ankles.

I'm not saying Muslim Men.. I'm saying all men.. and yes, majority of men are weak... but not to such things as ankles and forearms... clevage and *** do a good job though.

gonstic said:
Are you telling me if you see such women in the streets that you would rape her?

Who said anything about rape? If I was walking down the street and some girl walked past me with her breats bouncing and clevage showing like crazy, with tight jeans on and her stomache showing, along with whatever else she had going on... me and any other muslim/non muslim male friends wouldn't go and rape her, but we'd definately think disrespectful thoughts of her... It's how men are... but the fact that we could be in the middle of an intelligent discussion and that discussion would come to a screeching hault because of that girl is why it's a problem.. and why God asks women not to wear such things, and asks us not to look at such things. I dont understand what does not make sense to you?

gnostic said:
Then it is you (as Muslim men in general) have a problem, not the women. No wonder why you need the women to cover up, because you (as in all Muslim men) are nothing but lechers and perverts at heart. Don't blame the women, blame yourself. If you can't walk through streets as adults then you should all wear blindfold so that you can't see any exposed flesh.

Well that was pretty ignorant of you. If you honestly think that men don't have disrespectful thoughts of women who dress in a way that's revealing than I have no reason to think that you don't live under a rock, and any man who tells you otherwise is a liar. It's not just muslim men my friend, it's all men... what's the percentage of of males who masturbate? 99%? Now it is something which is natural... but in todays society, women give us men plenty to think about... because they don't leave much for the imagination. You're twisting my words around to attackk muslim men now.. when I made it clear in my posts that I wasn't just talking about non-muslims... I was talking about everyone. Ask any girl who has been assosciated with me in the past and in the present, and I have been nothing but respectful to them and always protective of them... but in your eyes apparantly I'm a pervert.

gnostic said:
You have made me realise that it is not Muslim women who have problem is Muslim men. So that's why you oppress them because your weaknesses, and even your Qur'an can't help to control your lust.

Well I guess both my brothers being virgins before marriage really shows the lust of muslim men... I guess my virginity at the age of 21 really shows the lust us muslim men have. God asks these things from us so that we don't experience this lust you talk about.Men aren't aloud to have sex before marriage in Islam just like women, and I'm willing to bet that if you grabbed 10 muslim men, atleast 7 of them will be virgins. I myself can find at least 20, all over the age of 21... so much for your horrible theory. Of course I'm attracted to women, of course I think they're beautiful... but to say that I have a problem with lust because I think it's a good idea for women to cover themselves shows me your ignorance. I'm here protecting women from the disrespect that men show them, and the horrible place they're in with society right now.. and you're calling me a pervert? Clearly you lack intelligence and have no idea what you're talking about. It's funny how you tried to turn that around on me. The fact that I stated how disgusting mardi gras was with the use of beads, and how disgusting it is at the bars (which I've stated in other posts that I do not go to ne more) and how women act, and how gross late night t.v is, and how gross the porn industry is, and how unfair it is to women that they're used as forms of eye candy to men all around the world at sporting events and other forms of entertainment makes me a pervert in your eyes is HILARIOUS. You my friend have just shown me that you agree with women wearing practically nothing and exposing themselves at the bars, and you agree with women making out at the bars with eachother to entertain all the guys, and you agree with the porn industry, and you agree with women being used as eye candy, and you agree with the whole beads situation at mardi gras, but hey... I'm the pervert here... so what do I know??

You go ahead gnostic... you go teach your daughter that it's alright to show her body and wear revelaing clothes... you tell her it's alright to have all the boys whisteling at her and thinking dirty thoughts of her, you go ahead and tell your daughter to go to the bars and make sure she is wearing something real skimpy otherwise she wont get any attention from the boys. May I ask you something gnostic? Go to a bar this weekend and tell me how many muslim men you find there groaping women and trying to get laid.... lol... I can't believe you tried to label me a pervert and a lustful person... you're more blind than Ray Charles.

I was stating the fact that God makes us men dress modestly too. I was stating the fact that God asks the women to dress modestly to not only help us men (muslim and non muslim) from looking at them in a disrespectful way, but to have respect for themselves also. Clearly you want men looking at your daughter sexually... so what I have to say means nothing right now. For you to say that men don't practice such things.... and that men don't think which such perverted minds because of the way weomen dress and present themselves... try working in a factory for a year and hearing some of things I've heard at that place. Go to the bars and chill with a large group of guys and tell me otherwise. You're insane if you think any differently.. and the fact that you're under the impression that I only know the perspecvtive of muslim men, again shows your stereotype and ignorance... throughout all of highschool the only muslim friends I had were my brothers and cousins... on a social level I hung out with non-muslims... I still stay close with them to this day, but I don't partake in the activities that they do anymore.... and I'm willing to give you their contacts to ask them WHY I don't chill with them anymore... hear what they have to say, and feel very very dumb for your comments.

I've been friends with a non-muslim girl for about six years now. In highschool she would date other boys and mess around with them.. and I saw the effects that sex had with a relationship and how it made things so difficult... she used to party hard, and when I used to party... we would party hard together.. she would wear revealing clothes on the nights that we would party... and although I had all the respect in the world for her I still had lustful thoughts when I saw her in those clothes, dancing the way she would dance... and no, it's not because I'm a pervert... it's because I'm a human being. Anyway... her and I never messed around but we both had the urge to. Once highschool came to an end we parted ways, but a year later we met up again.. the year that we were apart.. a lot changed... she had done a lot of things which she regretted, and I changed my partying ways. We talked, and talked, and talked.. and we have grown to love eachother. The fact that her and I never engaged in sexual acts is what has kept our bond so tight, and is what has made us love eachother so much. She has admitted to me that she feels a bond which she has never felt before, with any other person. She now no longer wants to go to the bar, and the fact that I haven't seen her body yet, and the fact that I haven't had any kind of lustful acts with her she has learned the importance of modesty. She doesn't wear the hijab, and she is far from a muslim... but she just no longer dresses the way she used to, or party the way she used to... and since she has stopped doing that... she has been happier than ever... she hasn't been disrespected by men... she hasn't had nights of drunkeness which have turned into regret, and she no longer looks at women on t.v and feels the pressure of looking the way they do... which is how she used to feel. You know why? Because she knows she has a man who loves her for the way she is, and although I would love to show affection with kisses and love making... I want to wait, and she now to wants to wait with me... I just introduced her to my parents not too long ago, and things went amazing... She has told me on many occasions, if things don't work between the two of us... she wont go back to her old ways because now she sees how disgusting, and disrespectful it was, not only to herself... but how disrespected she was by men.... Now may I ask a question? How did a pervert manage to pull that one off?

Ignorant... Ignorant..... Ignorant.

Ezz
 

Ezzedean

Active Member
MaddLlama said:
Oh, ok, I see. All women should wear modest clothing and head scarves because men won't respect them otherwise. And this is for MY protection as a woman, right.

You know, for two months out of the year, August and September, every weekend I get up, I put on two skirts, a shirt, and a corset, and spend 2 hours getting dressed and making sure I look beautiful. I spend the whole day expecting men to oggle me. And, so do about a hundred other women who are there with me. And, we enjoy it. Every second of it. Most of us are certainly not loose, and don't just bed any guy who happens to make some off color comment about how we look. And every night, I come home to a man who respects me for who I am. My sexual freedom is my own, and I think I'll dress how I please because I can tell the difference between a man who wants to get to know me, and one who just wants to touch me. Wearing a headscarf isn't going to keep men from wanting to touch me, and it doesn't mean that he'll respect me more.

Besides, do you really think such kind of objectification you speak of doesn't happen in female circles? Personally I think in this day and age it is just as likely for women to treat men like eye candy. I hear the sterotype all the time that men want a homemaker who looks like a model who is just content to clean the house and have dinner on the table when you walk in the door. In the same vein, do you know what women want? They want a Chippendale quality man worth millons.

Did you think hundreds of women flocked to the theaters to see Pirates of the Carribean for the love story?

Like I said before, it's all about knowing the difference. I don't complain about the attention that I get or don't get if I dress a certain way. To be perfectly frank, if a girl walks around in short shorts and a tube top and comes complaining to me that the men she dates only want one thing, well, I have no sympathy for her. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if she can't make the connection and tell the difference then she's probably living up to her potential. The secret is not to fall victim to the system, but using it to your advantage.

Okay,,, I get you're point... so if that's your argument.. how can you complain about a women who wears a hijab? It's her choice. The women you see who cover their whole face and all you can see is their eyes... IS NOT ISLAM. Aisha didn't dress that way and neither did Khadija.. You're right... the secret is not to fall victim to the system... but ALOT of girls do... and that is what I was stating as the problem. As for sex. I think it's not something that should be done before marriage... now you can do whatever you want and I wouldn't not talk to you, or not be friends with you because you weren't a virgin... TRSUT ME on this one. The only reason I feel sex shouldn't be done before marriage is because i've seen the jealousy that comes with it... I've seen the problems and difficulties that come in relationships with sex. I know a lot of muslim girls who save their virginity... and if I were to have to explain to a muslim girl who lived her whole life without having sex and stayed pure that I myself couldn't wait... that my friend.. would break my heart. I would feel soooo bad to have to tell a virgin muslim girl that I couldn't wait till marriage and indulged in sexual activities with girls who mean NOTHING to me anymore. I stated in a post above that I am seeing a non-muslim who isn't a virgin... but I have seen how she feels now knowing that she has had sex, and I haven't, and that I waited for my wife. She can hardly live with herself, and is having a really hard time getting over her past mistakes. I try to make her feel better, and I try to help her understand that I understand.... I know how she feels about it now.. but I've watched her cry when realizing that she has had sex with boys who now mean nothing to her, and who now don't hold a candle to me.. and that she can't experience sex for the first time with me... when I'm losing my virginity, she wont be... and it hurt her. big time.

I've learned from that and I've seen the importance of this. Now, i understand that problem wouldn't be a problem if we had both had sex... but I feel the jealousy. I feel something which I can't explain knowing that other men have slept with my possible future wife... it kills me to know that another mans hands were all over her... and she also explained to me how it was a problem with a past relationship. Her and her ex-boyfriend when she was in grade 12 both had a couple sexual partners... and they felt nothing but jealousy towards those people.. and although those people were no longer part of the picture... it was always a soft spot. So I completely understand no sex before marriage... I'm glad I saved it... she is glad I saved it... and I'm glad that this intelligent beautiful girl who I love more than anything is the way she is now... and is no longer interested in the way things used to be.

Do you know where i'm coming from llama? Do I honestly give off the impression that I'm some mean spirited man who oppresses women? Why do non-muslims get so offended at the fact that God asks for women to dress modestly and respectfully? Men do have wandering eyes.. and we shouldn't be looking at women like that... plain and simple... the beautiful body of a women... the beautiful curves, and sexy ways are for their husband, and husband only... and the sexy body of a man, and the hidden treasure in between their legs is for their wife ONLY. I know you disagree because your post above... but do you at least now understand where I'm coming from? I live in Canada man... I'm not this naive muslim that people seem to think I am.. and I'm not saying that muslims from muslim countries are naive... but I know whats going down.... I partied A LOT back in the day... I went to public elementary school, and a public highschool. I work in a factory with some interesting people... and I'm gonna be attending college in January solely to get away from that place.. I hated school and thought that I was ready to make a load of money... but no need to rush.. school it is.

I'm going to get a sub from subway (sweet onion chicken terriyaki).. all this typing is making me hungry. I hope I've been able to make my point without people thinking that I'm gonna oppress my wife and beat her anytime I have the chance. Me and Care (girl I'm "with") have just as much fun as any other couple... we take trips all the time... movies every weekend or just chillen out at home with the fam... possibly taking a trip to Africa next summer for missions work, play cards with my buddies, eat out ALLLL the time (gross), and I always smoker her at pool. Honestly if you saw the kind of ppl her and I were in highschool and the way we are now.. you'd wonder what the hell happened to us... your typical "popular" partiers/ social butterflies... but the change has been amazing... and in my eyes is so much more rewarding and has made our honeymoon something to REALLY look forward to.... and the both of us have been a positive example to our friends, and that's a solid feeling.

I'm out.

Peace and Blessings
Ezzu
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Ezzedean said:
You my friend have just shown me that you agree with women wearing practically nothing and exposing themselves at the bars, and you agree with women making out at the bars with eachother to entertain all the guys, and you agree with the porn industry, and you agree with women being used as eye candy, and you agree with the whole beads situation at mardi gras, but hey...

Did I say it is alright for women to go out naked in public? Did I write anything to support women to go to the mardi gras or join the porn industry?

No, on all three accounts.

I think you should re-read what I wrote; I didn't write a single to go out naked. I was talking about the way they dress in public, not go out naked or near naked.

If a woman wants to go out and reveal her legs, in a pair of shorts in warmer weather or to exercise, why should it matter to you or I? Or wear skirt or dress to work or in public? I didn't say that they go naked.

I have only indicated it is wrong for us - men - to force them into clothes because of the matter of religion or culture. We shouldn't be the one who to dictate to cover all the way up, or go to the other extreme - of going naked. I have only talk about how they should dress in public, should be a matter of women's choice - as individuals.

Tell me do think a woman who wear shorts, skirt or dress that you should immediately assume that they work for porn industry or dance in the mardi-gras? You have already made this decision apparently, from this ridiculous reply. You seemed to stereotype all Western women as working in the porn industry. You had just insulted every women who ever wore shirt, skirt, dress and shorts.

I don't naturally make that sort of false assumption about women who wore such clothing.

You still haven't learned a single thing, Ezzedean, even living in London, as you do. And yet you seem to indicate you know best for women.

I have the highest regards for women, and not for their looks. But I did not say I support mardi-gras or the porn industry, but I supposed you would naturally assume so because I am non-theist and secular. Just because I may admire a woman for her beauty in the clothing she may wear, doesn't mean I see her as naked whore or playmate.

You may think I biased, but from your own reply you seemed ready to stereotype women in general, and immediately assume that because I don't mind seeing a girl in pair of shorts or skirt that I would support the porn industry. My agnosticism doesn't have to do with porn industry, and it certainly doesn't mean that I support such industry.

So who is ignorant?

ezzedean said:
May I ask you something gnostic? Go to a bar this weekend and tell me how many muslim men you find there groaping women and trying to get laid.... lol... I can't believe you tried to label me a pervert and a lustful person... you're more blind than Ray Charles.
Do you naturally assumed that I am agnostic that I go to bar to grope women? I don't drink, so I don't frequent such bar. Bar life is not my lifestyle. Nor do I go out to nightclub. And before you mention it, I don't do drug, nor do I sell them.

You obviously stereotyping non-Muslim all in the same basket.
 

Linnet

New Member
me and any other muslim/non muslim male friends wouldn't go and rape her, but we'd definately think disrespectful thoughts of her... It's how men are...

I can understand that it's difficult not to think sexual thoughts about women sometimes, but why must sexual thoughts necessarily be disrespectful? I think it's important that people learn to respect others at all times, and I don't think viewing someone sexually is necessarily an impediment to that.

It is unfortunate that, in today's society, women who are viewed as sexual are also sometimes viewed as degrading themselves. I can understand why a woman might see that, due to flaws in our current society, being viewed as sexual is likely to make people disrespect her and I can also see that trying not to be viewed as sexual is one way of dealing with that. However, I think it is important that people take a stand against this. One way of taking a stand would be to try to find ways in which a woman can be both sexual and respected. I have friends who are strong and respected and still manage to be sexual. I think this is a step in the right direction. After all, most people would not say that women are disrespecting Johnny Depp by going to see Pirates of the Caribbean purely because they think him sexy.

I will concede that my views in this matter are definitely affected by my views on sex; I don't think sex before marriage is wrong, only sex without respect for self and others (note for clarification that, from this point of view, sex within marriage can be wrong if the partners do not respect each other). However, I still think that those who believe sex before marriage is wrong can make this belief compatible with the idea that sexual feeling for a woman does not mean disrespect for her, even if the woman herself is not actually your wife.
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
Ezzedean said:
Okay,,, I get you're point... so if that's your argument.. how can you complain about a women who wears a hijab?
It is now completely unecessary for me to read the rest of your post, as you have clearly misunderstood my argument 100%. I personally don't care HOW a woman dresses. If a woman of any faith or ethnicity wants to wear a head scarf? Totally awesome, matter of fact it looks good on a lot of women (well, mainly not white women...I would wear one from time to time if it didn't look completely retarded on me). The argument of this thread is that because Muslim women are supposed to wear them, that makes them MORE FREE. That's what I'm disagreeing with. Yeah, it's about choice, but choosing to wear one and the implications of doing so - specifically that if you wear one, men will automatically respect you, another sentiment that was expressed that I disagree with strongly, don't give a woman more freedoms. That's my argument. If you care to argue with that, then we can continue.
 

Milind2469

Member
Simple question. A Muslim woman knows that your respect depends upon how she dresses. OK. She does not give it a damn and dresses the way she thinks is modest (not necessarily Hijab) and respectful. What will you do to her? What does God do to her? What is her punishment?

Secondly, what is the punishment for Muslim men who don't grow beard, don't wear a cap or whatever, Sportsmen who wear shorts etc?

(By my questions themselves you would have understood that the men not following the rules are rampant but go unpunished)
 

kai

ragamuffin
in my opinion a woman should be able to wear what she wants ,its part and parcel of a free society ,in the uk men and women can wear what they like, it should never be part of secular law or religious law, customs on the other hand take time to change ,the middle east in particular doesnt seem to want to change its all very middleages, our muslim friends tell us its a choice no one forces muslim women to wear the viel which i think can be very feminine but why anyone would choose the kind of burka without some kind of coersion is beyond me
burka.jpg
 

ayani

member
Milind2469 said:
(By my questions themselves you would have understood that the men not following the rules are rampant but go unpunished)

and that's the big thing that bugs me.

i have alot of respect for communities who chose to dress modestly- mennonites, orthodox jews, sikhs, molokans, etc.

you will see both men and women dressing modestly, in accordance to tradition, out of respect for themselves, their traditions, and obedience to God. men will cover and wear a hat or kippot or kufi, women might wear headscarves or wigs, and both sexes will dress modestly as an outward expression of faith.

i don't see that happening a whole lot in Muslim communities. every time i turn on the TV and see images of Muslim communities around the world it tends to be the same thing. women will walk around the streets in a black chador or with hijab and very modest clothing, men will go around in thin western t-shirts and jeans and wear nothing on their head.

to me, this gives the message that muslim men's bodies are normal, unoffensive, and do not need to be covered modestly. women's bodies, on the other hand, should be covered in specific ways, as they deviate from the "normal" and "unoffensive" male body. this is totally a system which stems not from a communal expression of faith and modesty in dress (as with the religious groups mentioned above) but out of male preference, discomfort, and a male gaze. there's not alot of equality in the situation.
 

kai

ragamuffin
gracie said:
and that's the big thing that bugs me.

i have alot of respect for communities who chose to dress modestly- mennonites, orthodox jews, sikhs, molokans, etc.

you will see both men and women dressing modestly, in accordance to tradition, out of respect for themselves, their traditions, and obedience to God. men will cover and wear a hat or kippot or kufi, women might wear headscarves or wigs, and both sexes will dress modestly as an outward expression of faith.

i don't see that happening a whole lot in Muslim communities. every time i turn on the TV and see images of Muslim communities around the world it tends to be the same thing. women will walk around the streets in a black chador or with hijab and very modest clothing, men will go around in thin western t-shirts and jeans and wear nothing on their head.

to me, this gives the message that muslim men's bodies are normal, unoffensive, and do not need to be covered modestly. women's bodies, on the other hand, should be covered in specific ways, as they deviate from the "normal" and "unoffensive" male body. this is totally a system which stems not from a communal expression of faith and modesty in dress (as with the religious groups mentioned above) but out of male preference, discomfort, and a male gaze. there's not alot of equality in the situation.
i agree i see that every day in the city where i work modern western dressed men and women covered up (always walking behind it seems)
 

Peace4all

Active Member
AsslamuAlikum

(its gonna start off to be not on topic but you will see the point where im trying to get too)

In Islam we believe that Allah SWT has created every rule for a reason. When Allah SWT says, "Don’t drink Alcohol" then Allah SWT has a reason for it: That reason is not to harm your body and prevent you from doing really stupid things that you will regret later on in your life.

With that said same thing with the Hijab. I mean we all know sex is a very powerful thing it can even trap the most righteous men and woman. Allah SWT knows that and that’s why he put so many defenses to defend this law such as: the Hijab, separating men and woman, commanding man to "lower his gaze", and keeping conversations to a minimum. Why? Why can't I talk to a girl if I want? That's because that’s going to lead to a stronger and stronger relationship. The purpose of all these defenses is not to let that unstoppable sexual desire inside of you grow. A lot of religions will say," sure you can eye woman, talk to woman, and date woman.”, but when it comes to sex- NO!!NO!! YOU CAN’T DO THAT!!! IT'S AGAINST THE RULES!! Islam is not going to wait until you’re in Motel 6 with your girlfriend to tell you can't have sex. Islam is going to go way back and stop the relationship before you even met the girl.

The truth is that sex is such a powerful thing that we must put all these restrictions on it. Sure, as Gnostic said, "Muslim men are weak". In a way Muslim men ARE weak, as a matter of fact all men are weak in this area. The only difference is that Muslim men do something about it. Don't you think it would me much easier if Muslim men just neglected all these rules? Muslim men are human too and they do have desires.

I'm sure it’s also extremely hard for woman too. wheather woman don't want to wear Hijab or wheather men would like to look at women's body the Hijab is still a rule by Islam. Like I stated in the first Paragraph each rule has a reason behind it, which arives us to Maddllama's argument:

MaddLlama said:
The argument of this thread is that because Muslim women are supposed to wear them, that makes them MORE FREE. That's what I'm disagreeing with. Yeah, it's about choice, but choosing to wear one and the implications of doing so - specifically that if you wear one, men will automatically respect you, another sentiment that was expressed that I disagree with strongly, don't give a woman more freedoms. That's my argument. If you care to argue with that, then we can continue.


As stated in paragraph one Allah SWT rules have reasons behind them. By following these rules it's more likely that your going to live a better life. If god asks you, "dont lie" then don't lie because then people won't trust you. If he asks you "don't gamble" then dont gamble because it's likely that you will lose alot of money, and etc.

Samething can be said with the Hijab, sure it is a restriction but it's one more restriction but it's foolish to think that with less restrictions a person lives a happier life. The freedom of a Muslim woman is a unique freedom rather than a traditional one. (i will explain why on my next post because im really tired and coffe wont help :coffee: ) . Think about it Maddlamma, would you want a guy to like you because you have a sexy body or because he likes your personality?

To be continued...

thanks for holding my end while i was gone Ezzedean ;)

Salam

 

ayani

member
Peace4all said:
As stated in paragraph one Allah SWT rules have reasons behind them. By following these rules it's more likely that your going to live a better life. If god asks you, "dont lie" then don't lie because then people won't trust you. If he asks you "don't gamble" then dont gamble because it's likely that you will lose alot of money, and etc. Same thing can be said with the Hijab.

that's fine, and i can understand that.

i myself dress modestly out of religious conviction, so i get that part.

what i don't understand is the horrible discrepancy between male and female dress, and why Muslim men seem unwilling to care alot about male hijab if women are asked to be so careful in how they dress. check back on my previous post about "religious community" vs "religious apartheid".
 

gnostic

The Lost One
This bring back my question to Ezzedean, peace4all.

Why place restriction on the women alone?

Why not have Muslim men wear blindfolds, if they are so weak-willed that they can't control themselves?

What Ezzedean seemed to indicate the problem is with the Muslim men, not their women, but instead of restraining the men, you have oppressed the women instead. To me it is not about decency at all, but of control and power. If you want to control anyone, then you should control the men, not the women.

You have pathetic and barbaric laws like that in Pakistan advocated by fundamentalist Muslims, where a woman get "raped", she will have to produce 4 witnesses, before the rapist is found guilty. Without those 4 witnesses it is the victim who is found guilty and condemned to possible death.

How often do a rape victim can provide even one witness to her trauma? Do you expect me to seriously believe that people can easily get witnesses of crime? It doesn't seem to protecting the women at all. A Muslim man can get away with adultery, but a woman is stoned.

This is absurdity of those who follow the Shari'ah or Islamic Law and filled with double standards - one for men and one for women, and the law protecting the women seemed so inadequate by comparison.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
kai said:
in my opinion a woman should be able to wear what she wants ,its part and parcel of a free society ,in the uk men and women can wear what they like, it should never be part of secular law or religious law, customs on the other hand take time to change ,the middle east in particular doesnt seem to want to change its all very middleages, our muslim friends tell us its a choice no one forces muslim women to wear the viel which i think can be very feminine but why anyone would choose the kind of burka without some kind of coersion is beyond me
burka.jpg
Well it looks really comfortable.


Tho a little inhibiting sight-wise. Do you get a guide dog with one of these?

And the ones with the grille on the face - you have to turn your head to see anything, and look straight down to see your feet (or your friend's feet if you are in a cloud of sky blue burkas in the marketplace, for example)... of course this helps your husband to know what you are looking at...I am reading a lot of bios by women who wear/used to wear them, best to go straight to the source... Most wouldn't post in a place like rf i don't think.

What's say we ALL (men and women) go naked for a while and see what happens to the status quo.
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
Peace4all said:
Samething can be said with the Hijab, sure it is a restriction but it's one more restriction but it's foolish to think that with less restrictions a person lives a happier life. The freedom of a Muslim woman is a unique freedom rather than a traditional one. (i will explain why on my next post because im really tired and coffe wont help :coffee: ) . Think about it Maddlamma, would you want a guy to like you because you have a sexy body or because he likes your personality?

I am afraid you probably won't like my honesty.

Men don't just go up to random women and try to get to know them. Men choose women they think are good-looking, and try to get to know them specifically. Granted, some men don't have the maturity to move past the "get to know them" in the physical sense, but I personally think part of being a woman (looking for a date or not) is knowing the difference between a man who is listening to you and a man who is staring at your chest while you talk. I am like a beautiful spider: I catch men's attention with the way I look, and I keep them trapped because I am intelligent and have a good personality. If men don't move beyond the first part, I have no problems at all kicking them to the curb. I am not afraid of or upset by men who don't respect me as a person because they only have on thing on thier mind, because a man like that doesn't deserve my respect either. Personally I find that to be more freeing.

It's also a cultural thing. Muslim men and women tend to be attracted to one another rather than looking outside the culture for a "mate" so to speak. I think that because head-scarves specifically are such a culturally ingrained thing that a Muslim man would consider the wrap to make the woman more beautiful. As a product of my own American culture, the same thing wouldn't work for me. How many American men in thier 20's would approach a white woman they didn't know who was wearing a wrap over her hair, and covering most of her body? That is why for Muslim women it may be more freeing, but it is certainly not a universal type of freedom as you suggested.
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
Moon Woman said:
What's say we ALL (men and women) go naked for a while and see what happens to the status quo.

That's the best suggestion I've heard so far! Let's do it! :D
 

Ezzedean

Active Member

gnostic said:
Did I say it is alright for women to go out naked in public? Did I write anything to support women to go to the mardi gras or join the porn industry?

No, but I was speaking against all that stuff and you seem to think I'm wrong, and haven't agreed with anything I've had to say so far... you've made some pretty crazy assumptions yourself (I'm a pervert??) so I felt it was only necessary to return the favor.

gnostic said:
I think you should re-read what I wrote; I didn't write a single to go out naked.
Well if my memorry serves me correct it was you who suddenly talked about me looking at a girl in revealing clothes and raping her... can you show me where I ever mentioned the word rape in any of the posts you were responding to when you made that assumption? Quit being a hypocrite.

gnostic said:
If a woman wants to go out and reveal her legs, in a pair of shorts in warmer weather or to exercise, why should it matter to you or I? Or wear skirt or dress to work or in public? I didn't say that they go naked.

If a women wants to wear a scarf and dress modestly and feels happy doing so, why should it matter to you? I was clearly stating what the state of females are in society today, and the way media views them... and the media has a very big influence on the world. Show me one THREAD I've started which complains about a girl who wants to reveal her legs.. you wont do it.... but you will find plenty of threads which have people complaining about muslim women and their clothing. You guys ask why... so we give you an explanation.. and with our explanations we give you examples... and then you guys get offended... I know not all women are like this... but NO women should be like this. The way women are viewed in the media, and the picture that men have in their heads of how a women should look or how they would like them to look is unfair and wrong... plain and simple. Not all men think like this... but the fact is if men see a girl who looks like what the media has shoved in our faces.. we're all over it and stare at her in ways she shouldn't be stared at. I know not all women are whores... show me where I said all non-muslim women are whores.. PLEASE. Show me where I said all girls who wear a skirt are skanks or unpure... PLEASE... you can't and you won't. All I stated was the thoughts that go through mens minds when they see women wearing such revealing clothes.. and if you don't believe me... let's go grab ten guys and test out the theory. I will win.

gnostic said:
I have only indicated it is wrong for us - men - to force them into clothes because of the matter of religion or culture. We shouldn't be the one who to dictate to cover all the way up, or go to the other extreme - of going naked. I have only talk about how they should dress in public, should be a matter of women's choice - as individuals.

My mom doesn't wear a hijab, and both my sister in laws don't wear a hijab. they both have the desire to and probobly will eventually... but not until they are ready. Where is the force you speak of? I agree with you as it being the womens choice... the women has just as much free will as the man does. Any man who forces his wife to wear the scarf is doing something which he shouldn't and God will judge him for that. God asks that women dress modestly.. and if they are ready and feel responsible enough to wear the hijab... wear it. Where is the forcing?
God set out a guidline for life here on earth within the text of the Quran (so we muslims believe). So if you're so upset at how women are told to dress.. why aren't you complaining how God tells us not to steal? If we want to steal, we should be able to steal. What about murder? If we want to murder we should be able to murder. Now I know that's pretty extreme... but I'm just making a point. He states not to eat pig... why is that not a big deal to you? Why don't you talk about how we should be able to eat pig if we want and how deprived we are? He tells us men to dress respectfully, do you have a problem with Him telling us to do that? Do you have a problem with God telling us to protect women? Do you have a problem with God telling us not to drink? How about giving charity, do you have a porblem with God telling us to do that?(Before you go and say that I said you had a problem with those things... just know that I was just asking) Being a muslim is being a certain kind of person... and that kind of person is humble, that person has respect for themselves and others, that person has a clean pressence, that person follows the guidlines that God has set out for them to the best of their abilities... and the guidlines he sets out for us men and women is a way of life.. and it hits every aspect.. including the way we should present ourselves.. and unfortunately God does not want women wearing mini skirts and halter-tops... and He believes that when women dress with modesty and respect for themselves it is the best thing for them... I don't see the problem. Are they free? In your mind no.. but in their minds yes.

gnostic said:
Tell me do think a woman who wear shorts, skirt or dress that you should immediately assume that they work for porn industry or dance in the mardi-gras? You have already made this decision apparently, from this ridiculous reply. You seemed to stereotype all Western women as working in the porn industry. You had just insulted every women who ever wore shirt, skirt, dress and shorts.

I never said that every women who wore such a thing acted in such a way, show me where that was said. What I was stating was the disgusting things that go on in the world with women and how common it is now. I am talking about what leads women to getting like that, and the fact that a girl wearing a hijab has a very, very good chance of never going down that path. I've made it a point to make sure everyone understands that I dont think this way of all non-muslim women, and I also pointed it out that I know that all muslim women aren't angels. Stop making it seem like I'm doing or saying something that I'm not... because I came no where close to saying that all Western women work in the porn industry lol. Plus I know that all women in general aren't angels and also have dirty thoughts... and this is why us men need to be modest and respectful in our appearance and to women.

gnostic said:
You still haven't learned a single thing, Ezzedean, even living in London, as you do. And yet you seem to indicate you know best for women.

Right... I'm very naive and have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't watch t.v and see the way women are portrayed. I never went to the bar and saw the things a lot of girls would do for attention from guys. I don't have a girlfriend who used to stress about her body (which always confused me because of how gorgeous she is), and would stress about getting that tan, and would wear those kinds of clothes and get treated the way I've mentioned a lot of those girls get treated, and never got screwed over by guy who she thought was more into her than her body.I was just lying about all of that. I haven't seen a girl go from life of stress and drama, to happyness and true love all because of the she acted and portrayed herself. Even if the girl who dresses provocatviely doesn't get treated that way to her face... it will happen behind her back... which now causes three bad things.. back biting,inpure/disrespectful thougths and that girl being disrespected.



gnostic said:
You may think I biased, but from your own reply you seemed ready to stereotype women in general, and immediately assume that because I don't mind seeing a girl in pair of shorts or skirt that I would support the porn industry. My agnosticism doesn't have to do with porn industry, and it certainly doesn't mean that I support such industry.

Hey.. I appreciate the womens beauty aswell. Wasn't it you who called me lustful and perverted? How can you claim such a thing when I've stated how women should be protected and respected? Just curious. So understand the only reason I put those accusations towards you was because of the ludacris one you put on me... it didn't feel too good did it? Now maybe you have an idea how annoyed and upset I was to hear that you labelled me as such a thing. I'm sure you don't support the porn industry gnostic.. don't worry.

gnostic said:
So who is ignorant?
Not I.

gnostic said:
Do you naturally assumed that I am agnostic that I go to bar to grope women? I don't drink, so I don't frequent such bar. Bar life is not my lifestyle. Nor do I go out to nightclub. And before you mention it, I don't do drug, nor do I sell them.

You're telling me to re-read your posts but yet you haven't read mine properly. I told you to go to the bar and see the kinds of things that go down. Never did I say you had a nightclub lifestyle... not even close. Now add all the other claims you've made and it seems like you are the one who should re-read.

gnostic said:
You obviously stereotyping non-Muslim all in the same basket.


Obviously you haven't read my posts.

Ezzedean said:
I don't think that EVERY non-muslim girl has fallen into the trap of what society has told them to be... I'm not saying that there aren't beautiful girls out there who aren't muslim and that they all don't dress with modesty... becasue there are a lot that do...


But hey... what do I know? I'm just a big perv.

Peace

Ezzu
 

Ezzedean

Active Member

MaddLlama said:
It is now completely unecessary for me to read the rest of your post, as you have clearly misunderstood my argument 100%. I personally don't care HOW a woman dresses. If a woman of any faith or ethnicity wants to wear a head scarf? Totally awesome, matter of fact it looks good on a lot of women (well, mainly not white women...I would wear one from time to time if it didn't look completely retarded on me). The argument of this thread is that because Muslim women are supposed to wear them, that makes them MORE FREE. That's what I'm disagreeing with. Yeah, it's about choice, but choosing to wear one and the implications of doing so - specifically that if you wear one, men will automatically respect you, another sentiment that was expressed that I disagree with strongly, don't give a woman more freedoms. That's my argument. If you care to argue with that, then we can continue.


I wouldn't say it was completely un-necessary to read the rest of my post :(.... I was telling you about myself and my experience with that post, and sharing with you the reasons why I view things the way I do. I have misunderstood your point (but not me more) but you can still read that post because it still has a lot to do with what my point is. Now... as to a muslim women who is asked to wear a scarf being free... in some sense yes, and in some sense no.

I've described in most of my posts in this thread the way women are viewed in society, and the kind of women who have a major influence over teens and young adults. Unfortunately in the media and in society there are a lot of things which are expected from women which shouldn't be. I find it sa to hear about girls who are depressed because they don't look "sexy" in the eyes of society. It grosses me out to hear about a women who takes ephedrine everyday to help them fit into a mini skirt. I think it's too bad that in the bars the girls selling the drinks usually have short skirts and tight shirts showing their nice figure, and the girls in the bar who get the most attention are the ones wearing those kinds of things... so when girls see that, they follow. It's unfortunate to turn on the television and all the women you see on t.v are smoking hot, and usually wearing revealing clothes... and young girls and young adult women see that.. and see how good it's doing for that particular women... and they follow. So the Hijab in a sense does give freedom to a women. It gives them a freedom and confidence to know that they don't have to be like that and still feel strong. They don't have to be a sheep, and they have a good chance of knowing that they when approached by a man who wants to get to know her, that is's probobly for the right reasons. It frees her from disrespectful and crude sexual thoughts about her. It frees her from what's been considered the norm in society, just because the media says so. Now... there are other things a women can do which will possibly give her that sense of freedom, but the scarf is something (thank God) that will be everlasting.

Some people may consider the fact that they can wear mini skirts, and they can wear revealing clothes, and they can seduce whoever they want and act however they want as free... but a lot many of those people find themselves regretting a lot of things.. I honestly find a girl wearing a nice shirt or t-shirt (which fits) and jeans or a nice pair of pants much more attractive than a girl who is wearing a mini skirt and a belly shirt with tons of clevage.. girls are beautiful, but when they wear those kinds of things... they aren't beautiful anymore.. they are sexy/sex figures to men. Before I dig my own grave... I want you to understand that I know girls wear those kinds of clothes because they think it looks cute... but I think wearing it everyday, everywhere you go is not good. I think the way girls act in bars is no good... and the image they give off is wrong.. now that's not what we're talking about here... but just know that I understand that there are very bright, intelligent, beautiful, humble girls who wear mini skirts from time to time... but they too will get those disrespectful thoughts thrown their way or even said behind her back at one point throughout the day, but some guy, somewhere. (I know it's sad, but it's true... it doesn't even mean that we are all crazy perverts.. it's just the way the mind works when we see those kinds of things, God tells us men to lower our Gaze and to not even look in those regions... and as hard as it might be to believe... I work very hard at always looking a girl in the eyes.)

I just don't think that girls should have to wake up every morning and worry about looking good for guys at school and also not worry about girls looking at her like she's some kind of geek beacause of what she's wearing.... which is why I think the hijab is a good thing. Again.. I used to go out a lot, and the things I would see on Friday and Saturday nights from girls were mind boggeling...and the things those girls would wear were crazy... and yes, all the guys are looking at you... but they aren't looking at you with all out respect.. at least not right away... and no matter how long the disrespect lasts, it's a problem. I understand that you can tell the difference between a guy who actually likes you or a guy who s just trying to get into your pants... but the fact that those kinds of things happen is the problem. Do you know where I'm coming from? I hope you read part of my reply to gnostic... I'll re-post it just incase you didn't catch it..

" Being a muslim is being a certain kind of person... and that kind of person is humble, that person has respect for themselves and others, that person has a clean pressence, that person follows the guidlines that God has set out for them to the best of their abilities... and the guidlines he sets out for us men and women is a way of life.. and it hits every aspect.. including the way we should present ourselves.. and unfortunately God does not want women wearing mini skirts and halter-tops... and He believes that when women dress with modesty and respect for themselves it is the best thing for them"

I hope you get what I'm trying to say.. and understand that I'm painting a big picture.. and nott trying to single out certain people... please know this if you already don't. I dont have much time to look over this post... so if there are little mistakes here and there.. I apologize.

Peace to you MaddLlama
 

shema

Active Member
I think it is the opposite. Westerners are used to seing a lot of reavealing things on women, and have we are quite desensitized about how revealing she dressed, unless it looks really raunchy. but that's her choice to dress raunchy. raunchy females attract more creeps, than classy females. however can you say 100% that even under all that veiling, a man is going to judge the woman only on her personality. I mean, what if her Hijab is a 6x, would he still marry her, or if she has a huge mole right on her nose? would he approach her?
 

SaraLee

Member
I have a few questions. Is it not so that Muslim men originally wore long sleeved loose robes down to their ankles and covered their hair yet today it is acceptable for them to dress in long sleeved shirts and loose fitting pants if they so choose? Why were men allowed to change their manner of dressing? Would someone quote a scripture from the Quran on how men should dress?
SaraLee
 
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