Does Ecclesiastes 9:5 support the Jehovah's Witness view of the afterlife?

The Anointed · Aug 15, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
No, it isn't. Show me the phrase, "disembodied sprits", in the Bible, please. I can show you Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

The only hope for life after death, for anyone, is the future Resurrection described by Jesus @ John 5:28-29...note the future tense used. Same as at Acts of the Apostles 24:15.

You answered your own question: its death, representing (symbolic of) complete destruction, i.e., gone forever.

It (the Lake of Fire) is eternal, but it certainly isn't literal fire. It simply means, whatever's thrown into it, is no more, it is gone forever. I mean, the account @ Revelation 20:13-14 says death is hurled into it! Death is intangible....real fire can't burn it. But it can be gone forever. And Revelation 21:3-4 says that very thing: "death will be no more."

Hockeycowboy wrote...….No, it isn't. Show me the phrase, "disembodied sprits", in the Bible, please. I can show you Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

The Anointed...…... And I have already revealed that King Solomon was known for having God-given wisdom, and he wrote four books, ‘The Wisdom of Solomon,’ ‘Proverbs,’ ‘Song of Songs,’ and “Ecclesiastes.”

In the book of sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

From the book of Ecclesiastes: “Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc. A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off. Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles. Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.”

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes’ without realizing that here is the satirical work of Solomon, aimed at those who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead.

By believing Ecclesiastes 3: 19 is to be taken literally you deny that it is the satirical work of Solomon as revealed by the prophet Sirach.

The Anointed...… as to disembodied spirits, I have also quoted Isaiah 57: 1-2; "Good people die and no one understands or even cares. But when they [Good people] die, no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death."

You seem to believe that those who lead wicked lives such as the Rich Man, after their physical bodies have returned to the elements from which they were created also find peace and rest in death as did Lazarus?

If, as it is written, that after the great day of judgement, the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars, who had suffered the first death, which was that of their physical bodies, will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur, which is the second death, which you correctly state is complete destruction...gone forever, what period of time before the judgement of the wicked does Revelation 14: 11, refer to?

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. [The smoke of their torment will rise forever]

There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

That is, until the day of their second death when they will be completely destroyed and gone forever.

Well, we are off to town, catch you later.

siti · Aug 15, 2018

Deeje said:
Bring it on!

"Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD!" Amos 5:18

siti · Aug 15, 2018

danieldemol said:
So how is that so if the dead have no portion "forever" in anything done "under the sun"?

Audie said:
Come now. You know that a person can find a passage
to support whatever they want.

He should - I'll bet he can find passages in the Bible about 7th century Arab Prophets and 19th century Persian Messengers of God!

On the topic of Ecclesiastes 9:5 though - I reckon it really just means what it says - "when you're dead you're f...er...dead" - end of story. It is perhaps the truest statement in the entire Bible.

Deeje · Aug 15, 2018

The Anointed said:
Deeje wrote...…. there is not a single reference to an afterlife in the OT.

The Anointed...… Isaiah 57: 1-2; "Good people die and no one understands or even cares. But when they [Good people] die, no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death."

Yes! Once a good person dies, nothing can harm them. Sleeping in the grave is basically the safest place a person can be.

It is a difficult thing to dismiss an idea that is taken as a given in most religious faiths. Everlasting life is something 'programmed' into the human heart because originally there was no natural cause of death.
Solomon wrote......
"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish." (Ecclesiastes 3:11)

But when humans chose to defect from their Creator, they lost the privilege of living forever. (Genesis 3:22-24) Death entered the picture, but the human heart still retained the desire to go on living. The only thing to do to make the idea of death even remotely tolerable was to invent a way to live on after the body died. It had to be in an invisible form, in an invisible place because for most people death was the end of communication with a loved one. For them, death is very final.

But what about those who have had contact with dead loved ones "on the other side"?

The devil made sure that his first lie lived on even when humans didn't. He not only planted the idea that humans don't really die, but he even had his minions impersonate them through other human agents called spirit mediums. God forbade his people to have anything to do with spirit mediums and supposed communication with the dead. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) The Biblical example of this is Saul's encounter with the Witch of Endor. (1 Samuel 28:8-19) If God wouldn't speak to Saul through his living prophets, why would he do so through a dead one, using a method that was forbidden in his law?

Are you suggesting that those who lead wicked lives such as the Rich Man, also find peace and rest in death as did Lazarus?

Referring to Jesus' parable as if it was a true story plays right into the devil's lie. It was a parable used to teach an important lesson, like all the other parables Jesus presented. It isn't a literal account.
The Rich Man in the story was not said to be wicked nor was the beggar said to be righteous. They represented two groups of people with whom Jesus had dealings. The Rich Man pictured the self-righteous Pharisees who lived a very comfortable lifestyle whilst ignoring the plight of impoverished people like Lazarus. Their "deaths" represented a change in status....from God's point of view. The "bosom" of Abraham was a position of favor and when Jesus came, he elevated the 'Lazarus' class and relegated the Pharisees to Gehenna. (Not hell, but a state of complete annihilation)! Jesus' message was torturous to the them because it exposed them for the hypocrites they were. Taken literally, the story becomes ridiculous.....are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? Will a drop of water on someone's finger cool someone in literal flames? This is an illustration and the lesson makes sense.

Is it not written that the disembodied spirits of the wicked will suffer in terrible torment as they await the great day of judgement, when the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars, who had suffered the first death, which was that of their physical bodies, will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur, which is the second death, when their minds/spirits will be divided from the eternal soul, which will then develop and new mind/spirit.

There is a lot of mention of fire being connected with God's anger, but it is all symbolic as @Hockeycowboy has mentioned.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, etc.

The word "soul" in the Hebrew Scriptures means "a living breathing creature" (either human or animal)....it never means a disembodied spirit. The soul is mortal.....it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The word "spirit" literally means "breath"or "wind" so when you understand what the Bible actually says when using those words, you will understand that when God created Adam, he was not "given" a soul, but he "became" a soul once God gave him "breath". A soul (person) without spirit (breath) is dead. Solomon said that the spirit returns to God when the person dies because in the resurrection, only God can restore the breath that allows a human soul to live again. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

So when you study the Bible itself, without the pre-conceived ideas introduced by "the church" from the early centuries, you will find that Jesus and his apostles taught the same truth that God gave to Israel as their foundational belief about the condition of the dead. The "soul" is the person.....the "spirit" is what keeps us breathing. King David wrote....

"His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish."

"The dead themselves do not praise Jah, Nor do any going down into silence." (Psalm 146:4; 115:17)

This agrees with Ecclesiastes 9: 5, 10. There is no consciousness in death. And we should be grateful for this....why? Imagine if the dead are actually in a place where they are conscious of all that is going on here on earth?! Imagine loved ones seeing us making monumental mistakes leading to a life of heartache and not being able to do a thing about it. How could heaven ever be a happy place?

Some believe in guardian angels....but if that is true, then they are clearly doing a lousy job.

I believe that the devil has managed to sidetrack the majority of mankind (in many different belief systems) to keep believing his original lie.

The question is....will we continue to fall for it? :shrug:

Deeje · Aug 15, 2018

siti said:
"Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD!" Amos 5:18

Perhaps it would be good to see what that verse means in context....

18 ‘Woe to those who yearn for the day of Jehovah!

What, then, will the day of Jehovah mean for you?

It will be darkness, and not light.

19 It will be like a man who flees from a lion and is confronted by a bear,

And when he enters his house and leans his hand against the wall, a snake bites him.

20 Will not the day of Jehovah be darkness, and not light;

Will it not have gloom, and not brightness?

21 I hate, I despise your festivals,

And I take no pleasure in the aroma of your solemn assemblies.

22 Even if you offer me whole burnt offerings and gift offerings,

I will find no pleasure in them;

And I will not look with favor on your communion sacrifices of fattened animals.

23 Spare me the din of your songs;

And let me not hear the melodies of your stringed instruments."

Seems as if the day of Jehovah was not going to be a good day for those who have alienated themselves from God by corrupting their worship.....imagine running from a lion, only to be confronted by a bear!

Sounds bad.

The Anointed · Aug 16, 2018

Deeje said:
Yes! Once a good person dies, nothing can harm them. Sleeping in the grave is basically the safest place a person can be.

It is a difficult thing to dismiss an idea that is taken as a given in most religious faiths. Everlasting life is something 'programmed' into the human heart because originally there was no natural cause of death.
Solomon wrote......
"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish." (Ecclesiastes 3:11)

But when humans chose to defect from their Creator, they lost the privilege of living forever. (Genesis 3:22-24) Death entered the picture, but the human heart still retained the desire to go on living. The only thing to do to make the idea of death even remotely tolerable was to invent a way to live on after the body died. It had to be in an invisible form, in an invisible place because for most people death was the end of communication with a loved one. For them, death is very final.

But what about those who have had contact with dead loved ones "on the other side"?

The devil made sure that his first lie lived on even when humans didn't. He not only planted the idea that humans don't really die, but he even had his minions impersonate them through other human agents called spirit mediums. God forbade his people to have anything to do with spirit mediums and supposed communication with the dead. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) The Biblical example of this is Saul's encounter with the Witch of Endor. (1 Samuel 28:8-19) If God wouldn't speak to Saul through his living prophets, why would he do so through a dead one, using a method that was forbidden in his law?

Referring to Jesus' parable as if it was a true story plays right into the devil's lie. It was a parable used to teach an important lesson, like all the other parables Jesus presented. It isn't a literal account.
The Rich Man in the story was not said to be wicked nor was the beggar said to be righteous. They represented two groups of people with whom Jesus had dealings. The Rich Man pictured the self-righteous Pharisees who lived a very comfortable lifestyle whilst ignoring the plight of impoverished people like Lazarus. Their "deaths" represented a change in status....from God's point of view. The "bosom" of Abraham was a position of favor and when Jesus came, he elevated the 'Lazarus' class and relegated the Pharisees to Gehenna. (Not hell, but a state of complete annihilation)! Jesus' message was torturous to the them because it exposed them for the hypocrites they were. Taken literally, the story becomes ridiculous.....are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? Will a drop of water on someone's finger cool someone in literal flames? This is an illustration and the lesson makes sense.

There is a lot of mention of fire being connected with God's anger, but it is all symbolic as @Hockeycowboy has mentioned.

The word "soul" in the Hebrew Scriptures means "a living breathing creature" (either human or animal)....it never means a disembodied spirit. The soul is mortal.....it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The word "spirit" literally means "breath"or "wind" so when you understand what the Bible actually says when using those words, you will understand that when God created Adam, he was not "given" a soul, but he "became" a soul once God gave him "breath". A soul (person) without spirit (breath) is dead. Solomon said that the spirit returns to God when the person dies because in the resurrection, only God can restore the breath that allows a human soul to live again. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

So when you study the Bible itself, without the pre-conceived ideas introduced by "the church" from the early centuries, you will find that Jesus and his apostles taught the same truth that God gave to Israel as their foundational belief about the condition of the dead. The "soul" is the person.....the "spirit" is what keeps us breathing. King David wrote....

"His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish."

"The dead themselves do not praise Jah, Nor do any going down into silence." (Psalm 146:4; 115:17)

This agrees with Ecclesiastes 9: 5, 10. There is no consciousness in death. And we should be grateful for this....why? Imagine if the dead are actually in a place where they are conscious of all that is going on here on earth?! Imagine loved ones seeing us making monumental mistakes leading to a life of heartache and not being able to do a thing about it. How could heaven ever be a happy place?

Some believe in guardian angels....but if that is true, then they are clearly doing a lousy job.

I believe that the devil has managed to sidetrack the majority of mankind (in many different belief systems) to keep believing his original lie.

The question is....will we continue to fall for it?

The Good News Bible. CATHOLIC STUDY EDITION” Imprimatur by Archbishop John Whealon.

Ecclesiastes 3: 18-22; After all, the same fate awaits man and animal alike. One dies just like the other. They are the same kind of creature. A human being is no better off than an animal, because life has no meaning for either. They are both going to the same place-----the dust. They both come from it; they will both go back to it. How can anyone be sure that a man’s spirit goes upwards while an animal’s spirit goes down into the ground------------There is no way for us to know what will happen after we die.

Chapter 4: 2; I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either are those who have never been born, etc.

From the satirical work of Solomon……Chapter 9: 5-10; “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens in this world.

Go ahead, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine and be cheerful, it’s alright with God. 8 Always look happy and cheerful. Enjoy life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world—Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all you will get for all your trouble. Work hard at whatever you do because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead---and that is where you are going.

The JW organization believe that it was not Samuel that was bought up from the world of the dead, but a demon.

This Book of Sirach is so called from a Greek word that signifies a preacher: because, like an excellent preacher, it gives admirable lessons of all virtues. The author was Jesus the son of Sirach of Jerusalem, who flourished about two hundred years before Christ. As it was written after the time of Esdras, it is not in the Jewish canon; but is received as canonical and divine by the Catholic Church, instructed by apostolical tradition, and directed by the spirit of God.

Sirach 46:16-23; “Samuel the prophet of the Lord, the beloved of the Lord his God, established a new government, and anointed princes over his people. By the law of the Lord he judged the congregation, and the God of Jacob beheld, and by his fidelity he was proved a prophet. And he was known to be faithful in his words, because he saw the God of light: And called upon the name of the Lord Almighty, in fighting against the enemies who beset him on every side, when he offered a lamb without blemish. And the Lord thundered from heaven, and with a great noise made his voice to be heard. And he crushed the princes of the Tyrians, and all the lords of the Philistines: And before the time of the end of his life in the world, he protested before the Lord, and his anointed: money, or anything else, even to a shoe, he had not taken of any man, and no mall did accuse him. And after this he slept, and [In death] he made known to the king, [Saul] and shewed him the end of his life, and he lifted up his voice from the earth [The Grave] in prophecy to blot out the wickedness of the nation.

Communicating with the dead was forbidden by God, even though we know that Jesus, while dead in the flesh but alive in spirit, went and preached the Good News to the dead also. But God never said it was impossible for a human to do so.

The reason why the Good News was preached by Jesus to the disembodied righteous spirits, who had paid the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes they may have made in their physical existence, for which they were repentant and were judged as everyone is judged, was in order that in their spiritual existence they might live as God lives. See 1st Peter.

Do I believe the doctrine of the JW organization? Definitely not!

Do I believe, as revealed by Sirach that the book of Ecclesiastes is the satirical work of Solomon aimed at those who refused to believe in life after death and the resurrection.? I most certainly do!

Deeje · Aug 17, 2018

The Anointed said:
The Good News Bible. CATHOLIC STUDY EDITION” Imprimatur by Archbishop John Whealon.

Are you Catholic? Were you raised Catholic? You don't identify as one and yet you promote their teachings.

Ecclesiastes 3:

After all, the same fate awaits man and animal alike. One dies just like the other. They are the same kind of creature. A human being is no better off than an animal, because life has no meaning for either. They are both going to the same place-----the dust. They both come from it; they will both go back to it. How can anyone be sure that a man’s spirit goes upwards while an animal’s spirit goes down into the ground------------There is no way for us to know what will happen after we die.

How about the Jewish Tanach's version of Ecclesiastes 3:19-20? It is Jewish scripture after all.

"For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.

All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust."

Why did Solomon mention this commonality with man and beast? Did it not occur to you that Solomon was lamenting the fact that only humans started out with the promise of everlasting life, but then through disobedience, lost it....now they hold no superiority over the animals who were to have a natural life cycle of birth and death. We became no better than the animals over whom we were to hold dominion. If a return to the dust is all humans can look forward to, what is the point of making them superior to the animals?

Chapter 4: 2; I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either are those who have never been born, etc.

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3...
"But I returned and saw all the oppressed who are made [so] under the sun, and behold, the tears of the oppressed, and they have no consoler, and from the hand of their oppressors there is power, but they have no consoler.

2 And I praise the dead who have already died, more than the living who are still alive.

3 And better than both of them is he who has not yet been, who has not seen the evil work that is done under the sun."

Do you see the lament? This is a life where man oppresses man and he has no power over the one making his life a misery. The living begin to envy the dead. He then goes on to say that those who had never been born were even better off. It was a commentary on the futility of this life in comparison to the life God first intended for the human race. It isn't satire. It is frustration. Solomon did not have as clear a picture of the redeemer as we do. The sacred secret had not yet been revealed.
Jesus told his disciples...."To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." (Matthew 13:11)

From the satirical work of Solomon……Chapter 9: 5-10; “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens in this world.

Go ahead, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine and be cheerful, it’s alright with God. 8 Always look happy and cheerful. Enjoy life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world—Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all you will get for all your trouble. Work hard at whatever you do because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead---and that is where you are going.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun. . . . ."Enjoy life with the wife whom you love all the days of the life of your vanity, whom He has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity, for that is your portion in life and in your toil that you toil under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going."

The dead are not conscious of anything as I showed from my previous post. The ancient Jews had no notion of disembodied spirits of the dead floating off to places unknown. Quite simply, when you were dead...you were dead....that did not mean "alive" somewhere else.
It meant being confined to your grave to await the call of the promised resurrection. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

The Anointed said:
The JW organization believe that it was not Samuel that was bought up from the world of the dead, but a demon.

The demon who impersonated Samuel said quite plainly that God had stopped communicating with Saul through his living prophets....why would he then communicate to a disobedient king through a dead one, using a means that he had already outlawed?

You are mistaken...the "world of the dead" is gravedom. The dead are not alive somewhere else. Why would they be? Returning to the dust means exactly what it says. There is no 'immortal soul' taught in the Bible. In fact the two words do not appear side by side in any scripture.

The Anointed said:
This Book of Sirach is so called from a Greek word that signifies a preacher: because, like an excellent preacher, it gives admirable lessons of all virtues. The author was Jesus the son of Sirach of Jerusalem, who flourished about two hundred years before Christ. As it was written after the time of Esdras, it is not in the Jewish canon; but is received as canonical and divine by the Catholic Church, instructed by apostolical tradition, and directed by the spirit of God.

If you have to resort to using extra-biblical writings to prove your case then I'm afraid you've already lost it.

Sorry, but I do not believe that the Catholic Church is divine. Nor do I believe that it was instructed by apostolic tradition or the holy spirit. At its inception, it was flooded with apostasy and man-made traditions...the very things that undid Judaism. Its grubby history proves that it was never a true representative of Christ's church on earth. (Matthew 7:21-23)
It is not a trustworthy custodian of scripture, having removed it from the hands of the people to lock it away for centuries whilst it reveled in unbridled power even over the Kings of the earth.......nor was it ever a trustworthy promoter of it, adopting all manner of false religious teachings in order to curry the favor of the pagans it wanted to convert. Christianity doesn't have a nationality....and it is anything but "catholic" (universal) at present.

The Anointed said:
Communicating with the dead was forbidden by God, even though we know that Jesus, while dead in the flesh but alive in spirit, went and preached the Good News to the dead also. But God never said it was impossible for a human to do so.

Is that what you think he did? Read the scripture again.....

1 Peter 3:18-20 NRSV Catholic Edition....
"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water."

Who did Christ preach to? It says that he "made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark".

These spirits were not the dead, but the fallen angels who were disobedient in Noah's day. These ones were forced to return to the spirit realm when God flooded the earth, destroying their violent, illegitimate children and ridding the earth of all those who were caught up in a blood thirsty and hedonistic way of life. They were placed in a prison-like state called "Tartarus" (not hell) where they were stripped of their ability to materialize and put under restraint so as never to cause so much chaos again by manifesting in the flesh.

The Anointed said:
The reason why the Good News was preached by Jesus to the disembodied righteous spirits, who had paid the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes they may have made in their physical existence, for which they were repentant and were judged as everyone is judged, was in order that in their spiritual existence they might live as God lives. See 1st Peter.

I think you need to visit 1st Peter and reevaluate what is said there. There was no "good news" preached by Jesus to disembodied righteous spirits. These were disobedient unrighteous angelic spirits under the leadership of the devil. God has already passed sentence on them and their fate was sealed when Jesus gave them the news of their impending judgment. (Matthew 25:41) There was no good news for them, I assure you.

The Anointed said:
Do I believe the doctrine of the JW organization? Definitely not!

Do I believe, as revealed by Sirach that the book of Ecclesiastes is the satirical work of Solomon aimed at those who refused to believe in life after death and the resurrection.? I most certainly do!

That is entirely up to you....but please do not forget that the devil is a master of deception. He could even paint the son of God as a religious fraud deserving of death.....imagine what he can do with his true disciples in making them appear to be false disciples? (John 15:18-21)

In a world ruled by the devil...nothing is as it appears. (1 John 5:19)

The Anointed · Aug 17, 2018

Deeje said:
Are you Catholic? Were you raised Catholic? You don't identify as one and yet you promote their teachings.

Ecclesiastes 3:

How about the Jewish Tanach's version of Ecclesiastes 3:19-20? It is Jewish scripture after all.

"For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.

All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust."

Why did Solomon mention this commonality with man and beast? Did it not occur to you that Solomon was lamenting the fact that only humans started out with the promise of everlasting life, but then through disobedience, lost it....now they hold no superiority over the animals who were to have a natural life cycle of birth and death. We became no better than the animals over whom we were to hold dominion. If a return to the dust is all humans can look forward to, what is the point of making them superior to the animals?

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3...
"But I returned and saw all the oppressed who are made [so] under the sun, and behold, the tears of the oppressed, and they have no consoler, and from the hand of their oppressors there is power, but they have no consoler.

2 And I praise the dead who have already died, more than the living who are still alive.

3 And better than both of them is he who has not yet been, who has not seen the evil work that is done under the sun."

Do you see the lament? This is a life where man oppresses man and he has no power over the one making his life a misery. The living begin to envy the dead. He then goes on to say that those who had never been born were even better off. It was a commentary on the futility of this life in comparison to the life God first intended for the human race. It isn't satire. It is frustration. Solomon did not have as clear a picture of the redeemer as we do. The sacred secret had not yet been revealed.
Jesus told his disciples...."To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." (Matthew 13:11)

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun. . . . ."Enjoy life with the wife whom you love all the days of the life of your vanity, whom He has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity, for that is your portion in life and in your toil that you toil under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going."

The dead are not conscious of anything as I showed from my previous post. The ancient Jews had no notion of disembodied spirits of the dead floating off to places unknown. Quite simply, when you were dead...you were dead....that did not mean "alive" somewhere else.
It meant being confined to your grave to await the call of the promised resurrection. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

The demon who impersonated Samuel said quite plainly that God had stopped communicating with Saul through his living prophets....why would he then communicate to a disobedient king through a dead one, using a means that he had already outlawed?

You are mistaken...the "world of the dead" is gravedom. The dead are not alive somewhere else. Why would they be? Returning to the dust means exactly what it says. There is no 'immortal soul' taught in the Bible. In fact the two words do not appear side by side in any scripture.

If you have to resort to using extra-biblical writings to prove your case then I'm afraid you've already lost it.

Sorry, but I do not believe that the Catholic Church is divine. Nor do I believe that it was instructed by apostolic tradition or the holy spirit. At its inception, it was flooded with apostasy and man-made traditions...the very things that undid Judaism. Its grubby history proves that it was never a true representative of Christ's church on earth. (Matthew 7:21-23)
It is not a trustworthy custodian of scripture, having removed it from the hands of the people to lock it away for centuries whilst it reveled in unbridled power even over the Kings of the earth.......nor was it ever a trustworthy promoter of it, adopting all manner of false religious teachings in order to curry the favor of the pagans it wanted to convert. Christianity doesn't have a nationality....and it is anything but "catholic" (universal) at present.

Is that what you think he did? Read the scripture again.....

1 Peter 3:18-20 NRSV Catholic Edition....
"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water."

Who did Christ preach to? It says that he "made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark".

These spirits were not the dead, but the fallen angels who were disobedient in Noah's day. These ones were forced to return to the spirit realm when God flooded the earth, destroying their violent, illegitimate children and ridding the earth of all those who were caught up in a blood thirsty and hedonistic way of life. They were placed in a prison-like state called "Tartarus" (not hell) where they were stripped of their ability to materialize and put under restraint so as never to cause so much chaos again by manifesting in the flesh.

I think you need to visit 1st Peter and reevaluate what is said there. There was no "good news" preached by Jesus to disembodied righteous spirits. These were disobedient unrighteous angelic spirits under the leadership of the devil. God has already passed sentence on them and their fate was sealed when Jesus gave them the news of their impending judgment. (Matthew 25:41) There was no good news for them, I assure you.

That is entirely up to you....but please do not forget that the devil is a master of deception. He could even paint the son of God as a religious fraud deserving of death.....imagine what he can do with his true disciples in making them appear to be false disciples? (John 15:18-21)

In a world ruled by the devil...nothing is as it appears. (1 John 5:19)

Deeje wrote...….
Ecclesiastes 3: After all, the same fate awaits man and animal alike. One dies just like the other. They are the same kind of creature. A human being is no better off than an animal, because life has no meaning for either. They are both going to the same place-----the dust. They both come from it; they will both go back to it. How can anyone be sure that a man’s spirit goes upwards while an animal’s spirit goes down into the ground------------There is no way for us to know what will happen after we die.

How about the Jewish Tanach's version of Ecclesiastes 3:19-20? It is Jewish scripture after all.

The Anointed...…… It is a book of Satire written by Solomon.

Deeje wrote...…. "For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.

All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust."

Why did Solomon mention this commonality with man and beast? Did it not occur to you that Solomon was lamenting the fact that only humans started out with the promise of everlasting life, but then through disobedience, lost it....now they hold no superiority over the animals who were to have a natural life cycle of birth and death. We became no better than the animals over whom we were to hold dominion. If a return to the dust is all humans can look forward to, what is the point of making them superior to the animals?

Chapter 4: 2; I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either are those who have never been born, etc.

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3...
"But I returned and saw all the oppressed who are made [so] under the sun, and behold, the tears of the oppressed, and they have no consoler, and from the hand of their oppressors there is power, but they have no consoler.

2 And I praise the dead who have already died, more than the living who are still alive.

3 And better than both of them is he who has not yet been, who has not seen the evil work that is done under the sun."

Do you see the lament? This is a life where man oppresses man and he has no power over the one making his life a misery. The living begin to envy the dead. He then goes on to say that those who had never been born were even better off. It was a commentary on the futility of this life in comparison to the life God first intended for the human race. It isn't satire. It is frustration. Solomon did not have as clear a picture of the redeemer as we do. The sacred secret had not yet been revealed.
Jesus told his disciples...."To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." (Matthew 13:11)

The Anointed...…. In the book of sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ So where do you believe that we can find his fourth book, the satirical work of Solomon?

Deeje · Aug 17, 2018

The Anointed said:
The Anointed...…… It is a book of Satire written by Solomon.

I am not sure why you felt compelled to repeat all that but no matter......who said that Solomon wrote satire?

The Anointed said:
The Anointed...…. In the book of sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

I have no interest in the book of sirach, or R, H, Charles. I don't read apocryphal books. I read the books that are included in the canon that God had produced for people to make sense of in these last days.

Ecclesiastes is a book about the futility of man's existence in the face of things that were not revealed to Solomon in his time.
His conclusion in Ecclesiastes says it all....

"The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings that are given by one shepherd. 12 Of anything beyond these, my child, beware. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of everyone. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:12-14)

The Anointed said:
Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ So where do you believe that we can find his fourth book, the satirical work of Solomon?

Who said Solomon wrote a book of satire?

You seem to have difficulty when people disagree with you....? Can you not process the information for yourself. Just read the Bible.....its all there.

Solomon was a man who was favored by God with extraordinary wisdom....but there were things that Solomon did not know about the coming Messiah and his Kingdom. But in his older age even this wise man disobeyed his God and lost his favor. So the lesson is that wisdom, when it is not accompanied by obedience can lead to a man's disaster.

The Anointed · Aug 17, 2018

Deeje said:
Are you Catholic? Were you raised Catholic? You don't identify as one and yet you promote their teachings.

Ecclesiastes 3:

How about the Jewish Tanach's version of Ecclesiastes 3:19-20? It is Jewish scripture after all.

"For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.

All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust."

Why did Solomon mention this commonality with man and beast? Did it not occur to you that Solomon was lamenting the fact that only humans started out with the promise of everlasting life, but then through disobedience, lost it....now they hold no superiority over the animals who were to have a natural life cycle of birth and death. We became no better than the animals over whom we were to hold dominion. If a return to the dust is all humans can look forward to, what is the point of making them superior to the animals?

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3...
"But I returned and saw all the oppressed who are made [so] under the sun, and behold, the tears of the oppressed, and they have no consoler, and from the hand of their oppressors there is power, but they have no consoler.

2 And I praise the dead who have already died, more than the living who are still alive.

3 And better than both of them is he who has not yet been, who has not seen the evil work that is done under the sun."

Do you see the lament? This is a life where man oppresses man and he has no power over the one making his life a misery. The living begin to envy the dead. He then goes on to say that those who had never been born were even better off. It was a commentary on the futility of this life in comparison to the life God first intended for the human race. It isn't satire. It is frustration. Solomon did not have as clear a picture of the redeemer as we do. The sacred secret had not yet been revealed.
Jesus told his disciples...."To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." (Matthew 13:11)

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun. . . . ."Enjoy life with the wife whom you love all the days of the life of your vanity, whom He has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity, for that is your portion in life and in your toil that you toil under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going."

The dead are not conscious of anything as I showed from my previous post. The ancient Jews had no notion of disembodied spirits of the dead floating off to places unknown. Quite simply, when you were dead...you were dead....that did not mean "alive" somewhere else.
It meant being confined to your grave to await the call of the promised resurrection. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

The demon who impersonated Samuel said quite plainly that God had stopped communicating with Saul through his living prophets....why would he then communicate to a disobedient king through a dead one, using a means that he had already outlawed?

You are mistaken...the "world of the dead" is gravedom. The dead are not alive somewhere else. Why would they be? Returning to the dust means exactly what it says. There is no 'immortal soul' taught in the Bible. In fact the two words do not appear side by side in any scripture.

If you have to resort to using extra-biblical writings to prove your case then I'm afraid you've already lost it.

Sorry, but I do not believe that the Catholic Church is divine. Nor do I believe that it was instructed by apostolic tradition or the holy spirit. At its inception, it was flooded with apostasy and man-made traditions...the very things that undid Judaism. Its grubby history proves that it was never a true representative of Christ's church on earth. (Matthew 7:21-23)
It is not a trustworthy custodian of scripture, having removed it from the hands of the people to lock it away for centuries whilst it reveled in unbridled power even over the Kings of the earth.......nor was it ever a trustworthy promoter of it, adopting all manner of false religious teachings in order to curry the favor of the pagans it wanted to convert. Christianity doesn't have a nationality....and it is anything but "catholic" (universal) at present.

Is that what you think he did? Read the scripture again.....

1 Peter 3:18-20 NRSV Catholic Edition....
"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water."

Who did Christ preach to? It says that he "made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark".

These spirits were not the dead, but the fallen angels who were disobedient in Noah's day. These ones were forced to return to the spirit realm when God flooded the earth, destroying their violent, illegitimate children and ridding the earth of all those who were caught up in a blood thirsty and hedonistic way of life. They were placed in a prison-like state called "Tartarus" (not hell) where they were stripped of their ability to materialize and put under restraint so as never to cause so much chaos again by manifesting in the flesh.

I think you need to visit 1st Peter and reevaluate what is said there. There was no "good news" preached by Jesus to disembodied righteous spirits. These were disobedient unrighteous angelic spirits under the leadership of the devil. God has already passed sentence on them and their fate was sealed when Jesus gave them the news of their impending judgment. (Matthew 25:41) There was no good news for them, I assure you.

That is entirely up to you....but please do not forget that the devil is a master of deception. He could even paint the son of God as a religious fraud deserving of death.....imagine what he can do with his true disciples in making them appear to be false disciples? (John 15:18-21)

In a world ruled by the devil...nothing is as it appears. (1 John 5:19)

Deeje wrote...…… Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun. . . . ."Enjoy life with the wife whom you love all the days of the life of your vanity, whom He has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity, for that is your portion in life and in your toil that you toil under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going."

The Anointed...… All quotations above are taken from Solomon's book of Satire.

Deeje wrote......… The dead are not conscious of anything as I showed from my previous post. The ancient Jews had no notion of disembodied spirits of the dead floating off to places unknown. Quite simply, when you were dead...you were dead....that did not mean "alive" somewhere else.
It meant being confined to your grave to await the call of the promised resurrection. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

The Anointed said: ↑
The JW organization believe that it was not Samuel that was bought up from the world of the dead, but a demon.
The demon who impersonated Samuel said quite plainly that God had stopped communicating with Saul through his living prophets....why would he then communicate to a disobedient king through a dead one, using a means that he had already outlawed?

You are mistaken...the "world of the dead" is gravedom. The dead are not alive somewhere else. Why would they be? Returning to the dust means exactly what it says. There is no 'immortal soul' taught in the Bible. In fact the two words do not appear side by side in any scripture.

The Anointed...…. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 ESV Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 10:28 ESV And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hebrews 4:12 ESV
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, etc.

To be continued.

The Anointed · Aug 17, 2018

The Anointed said:
Deeje wrote...…… Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun. . . . ."Enjoy life with the wife whom you love all the days of the life of your vanity, whom He has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity, for that is your portion in life and in your toil that you toil under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going."

The Anointed...… All quotations above are taken from Solomon's book of Satire.

Deeje wrote......… The dead are not conscious of anything as I showed from my previous post. The ancient Jews had no notion of disembodied spirits of the dead floating off to places unknown. Quite simply, when you were dead...you were dead....that did not mean "alive" somewhere else.
It meant being confined to your grave to await the call of the promised resurrection. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

The Anointed said: ↑
The JW organization believe that it was not Samuel that was bought up from the world of the dead, but a demon.
The demon who impersonated Samuel said quite plainly that God had stopped communicating with Saul through his living prophets....why would he then communicate to a disobedient king through a dead one, using a means that he had already outlawed?

You are mistaken...the "world of the dead" is gravedom. The dead are not alive somewhere else. Why would they be? Returning to the dust means exactly what it says. There is no 'immortal soul' taught in the Bible. In fact the two words do not appear side by side in any scripture.

The Anointed...…. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 ESV Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 10:28 ESV And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hebrews 4:12 ESV
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, etc.

To be continued.

You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is created from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe, from the wave particles to the subatomic particles that make up the atoms which are the building blocks of the molecules from which the universal body is created. It is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE, that all information = SPIRIT is gathered.

“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become who you are, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle=tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN]

If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality = “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”

When the body in which you [the mind] are being formed, dies, [This is the first death] and your body: “skin, flesh, muscle, blood, bone, brain matter etc, etc,” has returned to the universal elements from which it was created, all that remains, is a shadow or rather, a facsimile of YOU = the mind=spirit, that has been imprinted into the universal life force=soul, from which it will be resurrected in the next cycle of universal activity. Unless of course, the information=spirit that is “YOU” has condemned ‘WHO YOU ARE’ and ‘WHO YOU ARE’ having being condemned by ‘YOU’, is then divided from the universal life-force, which is the second death. For the spirit=information that is you, can be divided from the universal soul. Hebrews 4: 12.---------“For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It cuts all the way through to the division of the soul and spirit.”

Deeje · Aug 17, 2018

The Anointed said:
All quotations above are taken from Solomon's book of Satire.

Can I just suggest that you might like to use the quote system here? It makes replying a little easier and eliminates unessessary repeating of previous comments. Just highlight what you wish to reply to and you will see an option to quote. Once you have selected all you wish to respond to, you will see an option in the script box to use the quotes and then respond as you wish.

Back to the topic.....
There is no book of Solomon's satire.....who told you there was?
Ecclesiastes is not satire.....it's more of a lament on the frustrations of this life. The closing verses sum it all up.

The Anointed said:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 ESV Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 10:28 ESV And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hebrews 4:12 ESV
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, etc.

If you understand what those words meant to a Jew, you would see that the body is what God created for Adam from the elements of the earth. His body was lifeless until God started him breathing...the "breath of life" is the "spirit". Adam then "became" a "soul".....i.e. a living breathing creature.

You will notice, especially in Matthew10:28, that God can "destroy" a soul....not in "hell" but in "Gehenna" which is a place from which no one ever returns. It is not a place of eternal torment in flames that never die. Jews knew exactly what Gehenna meant, but Christendom applied it to a pagan idea that they adopted along with the notion of an immortal soul.

Gehenna meant the same as "the lake of fire" in Revelation....it's a symbolic place called "the second death".....whatever goes into Gehenna, is never seen again. Even death and hades are cast into this place because they will never be a part of human existence again. Have you never done research on these things?

There is no teaching of an immortal soul in any part of the Bible.

Deeje · Aug 17, 2018

The Anointed said:
You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is created from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe, from the wave particles to the subatomic particles that make up the atoms which are the building blocks of the molecules from which the universal body is created. It is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE, that all information = SPIRIT is gathered.

Can I have a scriptural reference for that please? Did you make that up...or were you quoting someone else?

“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become who you are, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle=tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN]

Can a "person" exist apart from the body? I don't believe so. You see that the "soul" (biblically the whole person) cannot exist apart from the body because all consciousness and activity is tied up with the brain. If our consciousness exists apart from our brain, then it would be impossible for a doctor to use anesthetic to render us 'unconscious'. It would be impossible for someone who has been in a coma NOT to remember the intervening time when unconsciousness rendered that body and mind to be totally inactive.

Ecclesiastes tells us that there is NO conscious activity after death....once you enter the grave, all consciousness ceases. The "spirit" (breath) has left the body and that person is no longer capable of thought. (Psalm 146:4)

Jesus and the apostles likened death to "sleeping". Do you know how long you have been asleep if you don't look at a clock? Those who "sleep in death" will not be aware of the cessation of time, because no matter how long they have slept, it will not register because there is no consciousness. When Jesus calls the dead from their graves, they will not know how long they have slept. (John 5:28-29)

If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality = “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”

That obviously means something to you but is nothing close to what the Bible teaches. That is the only source information that I take as coming from God. The rest is just human musings and opinions that are a dime a dozen here. You are free to accept whatever truth you fancy. But it is nothing close to what the Bible teaches. The Bible is God's word, so I will form my opinions on what it says.

When the body in which you [the mind] are being formed, dies, [This is the first death] and your body: “skin, flesh, muscle, blood, bone, brain matter etc, etc,” has returned to the universal elements from which it was created, all that remains, is a shadow or rather, a facsimile of YOU = the mind=spirit, that has been imprinted into the universal life force=soul, from which it will be resurrected in the next cycle of universal activity.

Again...where will I find this notion in the Bible? What is this "shadow" or "facsimile" of which you speak?

When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus, if you read the account in John 11:11-14....ask these questions...

1 Where was Lazarus before Jesus brought him back to life?

2 What was the purpose of Lazarus' resurrection back to this life, if he was only going to die again?

3 If Lazarus was in a better place, why would Jesus bring him back to this life?

4 Why did Lazarus not mention where his "consciousness" had been?

Please use scripture to answer those questions.

Unless of course, the information=spirit that is “YOU” has condemned ‘WHO YOU ARE’ and ‘WHO YOU ARE’ having being condemned by ‘YOU’, is then divided from the universal life-force, which is the second death. For the spirit=information that is you, can be divided from the universal soul. Hebrews 4: 12.---------“For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It cuts all the way through to the division of the soul and spirit.”

The "first death" is the one Jesus came to release us from. This is "Adamic death" the kind we inherited from Adam (Romans 5:12).....its the trap from which we could never release ourselves. But the "second death" is one that is permanent. There will not be a resurrection from that death. Everything that goes into "the lake of fire" never comes out. Death and hades are thrown in there, so it can't be a literal place.

Now, I am not sure where or from whom you have received your information, but I can tell you that none of it comes from the Bible, so whatever the source, I hope you will do some further research and think carefully about what you have said. As we are of a similar vintage, it is possible for 'old dogs to learn new tricks'.

Faithofchristian · Aug 17, 2018

danieldemol said:
In context, Ecclesiastes 9:5 states;

9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

(King James Bible, Ecclesiastes)
So some key points, if this refers to all the dead, and they have no more reward, how could the righteous be rewarded in any future alleged state with eternal life, freedom from sickness and ill health in a physical body etc?

Also according to my understanding the JW belief is that one will be living eternally on physical earth (ie "under the sun" to paraphrase). So how is that so if the dead have no portion "forever" in anything done "under the sun"?

As for Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Who's the living and who's the dead ?

Note that in the book of Genesis 3:20--"And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living"

Ok, So who's the living ?

If you understand the Bible scriptures, you will find the living and the dead.
But who is the living in reference to?
And who is the dead in reference to ?

Faithofchristian · Aug 17, 2018

Deeje said:
Can I just suggest that you might like to use the quote system here? It makes replying a little easier and eliminates unessessary repeating of previous comments. Just highlight what you wish to reply to and you will see an option to quote. Once you have selected all you wish to respond to, you will see an option in the script box to use the quotes and then respond as you wish.

Back to the topic.....
There is no book of Solomon's satire.....who told you there was?
Ecclesiastes is not satire.....it's more of a lament on the frustrations of this life. The closing verses sum it all up.

If you understand what those words meant to a Jew, you would see that the body is what God created for Adam from the elements of the earth. His body was lifeless until God started him breathing...the "breath of life" is the "spirit". Adam then "became" a "soul".....i.e. a living breathing creature.

You will notice, especially in Matthew10:28, that God can "destroy" a soul....not in "hell" but in "Gehenna" which is a place from which no one ever returns. It is not a place of eternal torment in flames that never die. Jews knew exactly what Gehenna meant, but Christendom applied it to a pagan idea that they adopted along with the notion of an immortal soul.

Gehenna meant the same as "the lake of fire" in Revelation....it's a symbolic place called "the second death".....whatever goes into Gehenna, is never seen again. Even death and hades are cast into this place because they will never be a part of human existence again. Have you never done research on these things?

There is no teaching of an immortal soul in any part of the Bible.

If I may ask, When Jesus calls the dead from the grave. John 5:28-29.

Who is the dead in reference to ?
What is the grave in reference to?
In speaking about the lake of fire, What is the lake of fire?
Have you any idea who the lake of fire is ?

You made mention, that there no teaching of an immortal soul. Are you sure about this ?

Let's go to the book of Matthew 10:28 -----
-----"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

Do you understand what Christ Jesus is saying here ?
Jesus said ( fear not them which kill the body) here we find the body is not immortal, seeing the body can be killed.

Jesus also said ( but are not able to kill the soul) here we find the soul can not be killed by man, So that means the soul is immortal.that can not be killed by man.

Jesus also said ( but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell)
Here we find only God can kill both soul and body.
So that means, that the soul is immortal, only up to the time God decides to destroy the soul. Other than that, the soul is immortal. That can not die Nor be killed by man, only God has the power to destroy the soul.

So there's penty of teachings by Christ Jesus in and about a immortal soul. If you know what to look for.

The Anointed · Aug 17, 2018

Deeje said:
I am not sure why you felt compelled to repeat all that but no matter......who said that Solomon wrote satire?

I have no interest in the book of sirach, or R, H, Charles. I don't read apocryphal books. I read the books that are included in the canon that God had produced for people to make sense of in these last days.

Ecclesiastes is a book about the futility of man's existence in the face of things that were not revealed to Solomon in his time.
His conclusion in Ecclesiastes says it all....

"The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings that are given by one shepherd. 12 Of anything beyond these, my child, beware. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of everyone. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:12-14)

Who said Solomon wrote a book of satire?

You seem to have difficulty when people disagree with you....? Can you not process the information for yourself. Just read the Bible.....its all there.

Solomon was a man who was favored by God with extraordinary wisdom....but there were things that Solomon did not know about the coming Messiah and his Kingdom. But in his older age even this wise man disobeyed his God and lost his favor. So the lesson is that wisdom, when it is not accompanied by obedience can lead to a man's disaster.

The Anointed said: ↑

The Anointed...…… It is a book of Satire written by Solomon.

Deeje wrote……. I am not sure why you felt compelled to repeat all that but no matter......who said that Solomon wrote satire?

The Anointed responds……. I felt compelled to repeat all that because the book of Ecclesiastes is a Satirical work of Solomon.

The Anointed said: ↑

The Anointed...…. In the book of sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables felt compelled to repeat all that, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Deeje wrote……. I have no interest in the book of sirach, or R, H, Charles. I don't read apocryphal books. I read the books that are included in the canon that God had produced for people to make sense of in these last days.

The Anointed responds……… You do realise of course that it was the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, who, in the fourth century compiled the cannon that you confine yourself to and attempt to impose that limitation on everyone else, and it was the Roman Catholic Church that added the book of Sirach to the cannon that you claim to believe.

Deeje wrote…….. Ecclesiastes is a book about the futility of man's existence in the face of things that were not revealed to Solomon in his time.
His conclusion in Ecclesiastes says it all....

The Anointed responds……… Ecclesiastes is a book of Satire as revealed in the book of Sirach, from the cannon in which you claim to believe.

Deeje wrote………"The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings that are given by one shepherd. 12 Of anything beyond these, my child, beware. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of everyone. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:12-14)

The Anointed said: ↑

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ So where do you believe that we can find his fourth book, the satirical work of Solomon?

Deeje wrote……. Who said Solomon wrote a book of satire?

The Anointed responds…….. The book of Sirach,. which is received as canonical and divine by the Catholic Church, instructed by apostolical tradition, and directed by the spirit of God. Which cannon you are confined to and wish to impose that limitation to everyone else.

Deeje wrote……. You seem to have difficulty when people disagree with you....?

The Anointed responds……. Not so my friend, not so, but I do attempt to save them from their erroneous beliefs.

Deeje wrote……. Can you not process the information for yourself. Just read the Bible.....its all there.

The Anointed responds……. But I have my dear friend. I have read it all in the Cannon to which you are confined, where it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ So where do you believe that we can find his fourth book, the satirical work of Solomon?

Deeje wrote…….. Solomon was a man who was favored by God with extraordinary wisdom....but there were things that Solomon did not know about the coming Messiah and his Kingdom. But in his older age even this wise man disobeyed his God and lost his favor. So the lesson is that wisdom, when it is not accompanied by obedience can lead to a man's disaster.

The Anointed responds……. Solomon was also the man who wrote the four books ‘Solomon’s Songs,’ ‘Proverbs,’ ‘The Wisdom of Solomon and his Satirical work, which is the book of ‘Ecclesiastes.’

Deeje · Aug 17, 2018

The Anointed said:
The Anointed said: ↑

The Anointed...…… It is a book of Satire written by Solomon.

Deeje wrote……. I am not sure why you felt compelled to repeat all that but no matter......who said that Solomon wrote satire?

The Anointed responds……. I felt compelled to repeat all that because the book of Ecclesiastes is a Satirical work of Solomon.

The Anointed said: ↑

The Anointed...…. In the book of sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables felt compelled to repeat all that, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Deeje wrote……. I have no interest in the book of sirach, or R, H, Charles. I don't read apocryphal books. I read the books that are included in the canon that God had produced for people to make sense of in these last days.

The Anointed responds……… You do realise of course that it was the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, who, in the fourth century compiled the cannon that you confine yourself to and attempt to impose that limitation on everyone else, and it was the Roman Catholic Church that added the book of Sirach to the cannon that you claim to believe.

Deeje wrote…….. Ecclesiastes is a book about the futility of man's existence in the face of things that were not revealed to Solomon in his time.
His conclusion in Ecclesiastes says it all....

The Anointed responds……… Ecclesiastes is a book of Satire as revealed in the book of Sirach, from the cannon in which you claim to believe.

Deeje wrote………"The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings that are given by one shepherd. 12 Of anything beyond these, my child, beware. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of everyone. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:12-14)

The Anointed said: ↑

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ So where do you believe that we can find his fourth book, the satirical work of Solomon?

Deeje wrote……. Who said Solomon wrote a book of satire?

The Anointed responds…….. The book of Sirach,. which is received as canonical and divine by the Catholic Church, instructed by apostolical tradition, and directed by the spirit of God. Which cannon you are confined to and wish to impose that limitation to everyone else.

Deeje wrote……. You seem to have difficulty when people disagree with you....?

The Anointed responds……. Not so my friend, not so, but I do attempt to save them from their erroneous beliefs.

Deeje wrote……. Can you not process the information for yourself. Just read the Bible.....its all there.

The Anointed responds……. But I have my dear friend. I have read it all in the Cannon to which you are confined, where it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ So where do you believe that we can find his fourth book, the satirical work of Solomon?

Deeje wrote…….. Solomon was a man who was favored by God with extraordinary wisdom....but there were things that Solomon did not know about the coming Messiah and his Kingdom. But in his older age even this wise man disobeyed his God and lost his favor. So the lesson is that wisdom, when it is not accompanied by obedience can lead to a man's disaster.

The Anointed responds……. Solomon was also the man who wrote the four books ‘Solomon’s Songs,’ ‘Proverbs,’ ‘The Wisdom of Solomon and his Satirical work, which is the book of ‘Ecclesiastes.’

You are making me dizzy. Round and round it goes and where it stops nobody knows.....I do. I think it stops here.

The canon is not a product of the Catholic Church...in fact I can guarantee you that not a single Catholic penned a word of it. If God used the church to compile the canon then it was his direction that did the choosing, not the church. The canon did not include the book of Sirach. There is no book of satire.

You are not listening and I have said all I am going to say. Believe what you will.....Have a nice day.

Hockeycowboy · Aug 17, 2018

The Anointed said:
The Anointed said: ↑

The Anointed...…… It is a book of Satire written by Solomon.

Deeje wrote……. I am not sure why you felt compelled to repeat all that but no matter......who said that Solomon wrote satire?

The Anointed responds……. I felt compelled to repeat all that because the book of Ecclesiastes is a Satirical work of Solomon.

The Anointed said: ↑

The Anointed...…. In the book of sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables felt compelled to repeat all that, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Deeje wrote……. I have no interest in the book of sirach, or R, H, Charles. I don't read apocryphal books. I read the books that are included in the canon that God had produced for people to make sense of in these last days.

The Anointed responds……… You do realise of course that it was the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, who, in the fourth century compiled the cannon that you confine yourself to and attempt to impose that limitation on everyone else, and it was the Roman Catholic Church that added the book of Sirach to the cannon that you claim to believe.

Deeje wrote…….. Ecclesiastes is a book about the futility of man's existence in the face of things that were not revealed to Solomon in his time.
His conclusion in Ecclesiastes says it all....

The Anointed responds……… Ecclesiastes is a book of Satire as revealed in the book of Sirach, from the cannon in which you claim to believe.

Deeje wrote………"The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings that are given by one shepherd. 12 Of anything beyond these, my child, beware. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of everyone. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:12-14)

The Anointed said: ↑

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ So where do you believe that we can find his fourth book, the satirical work of Solomon?

Deeje wrote……. Who said Solomon wrote a book of satire?

The Anointed responds…….. The book of Sirach,. which is received as canonical and divine by the Catholic Church, instructed by apostolical tradition, and directed by the spirit of God. Which cannon you are confined to and wish to impose that limitation to everyone else.

Deeje wrote……. You seem to have difficulty when people disagree with you....?

The Anointed responds……. Not so my friend, not so, but I do attempt to save them from their erroneous beliefs.

Deeje wrote……. Can you not process the information for yourself. Just read the Bible.....its all there.

The Anointed responds……. But I have my dear friend. I have read it all in the Cannon to which you are confined, where it is written concerning Solomon, (1)“By thy songs, (2) parables, (3) dark speeches, and (4) SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of ‘proverbs,’ his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ So where do you believe that we can find his fourth book, the satirical work of Solomon?

Deeje wrote…….. Solomon was a man who was favored by God with extraordinary wisdom....but there were things that Solomon did not know about the coming Messiah and his Kingdom. But in his older age even this wise man disobeyed his God and lost his favor. So the lesson is that wisdom, when it is not accompanied by obedience can lead to a man's disaster.

The Anointed responds……. Solomon was also the man who wrote the four books ‘Solomon’s Songs,’ ‘Proverbs,’ ‘The Wisdom of Solomon and his Satirical work, which is the book of ‘Ecclesiastes.’

Wow! Calling part of Jehovah God’s Word “satire”, is just another way to disregard its truth.

Fortunately, it’s not the only Bible book that discusses the subject and agrees with Solomon’s Ecclesiastes....you’d probably call it satire, also.

The Anointed · Aug 18, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
Wow! Calling part of Jehovah God’s Word “satire”, is just another way to disregard its truth.

Fortunately, it’s not the only Bible book that discusses the subject and agrees with Solomon’s Ecclesiastes....you’d probably call it satire, also.

The bible itself calls Ecclesiastes the satirical work of Solomon. The book of Sirach states that Solomon wrote four books His songs, which is the book of Solomon's songs, his parrables, which is his book of proverbs, his dark speeches which is the wisdom of Solomon and his fourth book of satires, which is the book of Ecclesiastes

Stephens words in Acts seven is also in God's word, but only one who is totally ignorant to the truth as revealed in the scriptures would believe the words of Stephen.

Deeje · Aug 18, 2018

Faithofchristian said:
If I may ask, When Jesus calls the dead from the grave. John 5:28-29.

Jesus showed us when he walked this earth that he could raise the dead to life. It was just a brief demonstration of what will take place when Jesus rules as King of God's Kingdom. He taught us to pray for the Kingdom to "come". He did not tell us that we go to the Kingdom, but rather that it comes to us....only then will God's will "be done on earth as it is in heaven". This is when Jesus will raise the dead.

John 5:28-29 is speaking about the 'second' or 'general' resurrection of the dead back to paradise conditions...the same ones he promised the evil doer hung alongside him.

There are two resurrections.....a "first"one to heaven for those chosen to rule with Christ (Revelation 20:6) and one for those over whom they will rule. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)

Faithofchristian said:
Who is the dead in reference to ?

"All in their tombs" according to Jesus. He cannot call a person from their grave unless they are still in it.

Faithofchristian said:
What is the grave in reference to?

It is the place where the dead "sleep" awaiting Jesus call to "come forth". (1 Thessalonians 4:13)

Faithofchristian said:
In speaking about the lake of fire, What is the lake of fire?
Have any idea who the lake of fire is ?

"The lake of fire" is the same as "gehenna"...it is a place of eternal death. As for "who" the lake of fire is...there is no "who" it is a "what".....called "the second death" because those who fall victim to the first death will come out of their graves to a resurrection, but those in gehenna will not. (Matthew 23:33)

Faithofchristian said:
You made mention, that there no teaching of an immortal soul. Are you sure about this ?

Yep...positive.

Faithofchristian said:
Let's go to the book of Matthew 10:28 -----
-----"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

Do you understand what Christ Jesus is saying here ?
Jesus said ( fear not them which kill the body) here we find the body is not immortal, seeing the body can be killed.

Jesus also said ( but are not able to kill the soul) here we find the soul can not be killed by man, So that means the soul is immortal.that can not be killed by man.

You do understand that the word "immortal" means "deathless"? An immortal cannot die....even by the hand of God. It is "the power of an indestructible life". God can only destroy mortals. So the ones "destroyed" by God were never granted immortality in the first place. Those who go to heaven to rule with Jesus are the only ones granted this power because they have proven faithful to God under test, proving worthy of their choosing. (1 Corinthians 15:50-57)

Faithofchristian said:
Jesus also said ( but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell)
Here we find only God can kill both soul and body.
So that means, that the soul is immortal, only up to the time God decides to destroy the soul. Other than that, the soul is immortal. That can not die Nor be killed by man, only God has the power to destroy the soul.

No, it means that the ones in gehenna have had all prospects for future life eliminated. These have proven unworthy to retain the gift of life. The lake of fire lets no one out because whatever goes in there is "destroyed" forever. Fire is a symbol of complete destruction.

Faithofchristian said:
So there's penty of teachings by Christ Jesus in and about a immortal soul. If you know what to look for.

No there's not. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in any part of the Bible. If you'd like to explore any passage I can show you from other scripture why an immortal soul is not part of anything recorded in the scriptures.

If we have an immortal soul, then it means that God put us on this earth to die. There is nothing in Genesis to even suggest such a thing. Everlasting life was given to mortal humans at the start with the prospect that if they obeyed their Creator, they could live forever here on earth. (Genesis 3:22-24)

I cannot see where God changed that arrangement. (Isaiah 55:11)

Does Ecclesiastes 9:5 support the Jehovah's Witness view of the afterlife?

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