We do? That's news to me.
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God rejection?
- Thread starter DPMartin
- Start date
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
@KenS
I honestly call it syncronicity rather than supernatural predictions. Predictions that get "noticed" would need to be distinct, pass historical, and, cough, scientific (has to be proven that these events broke the laws of nature), beyond philosophical (no more Ifs and what Ifs), and trump psychological views on religious need to find pattern in the universe for mental and spiritual safety.
Also, Nichiren Dishonia predictions came true. Im sure other Buddhist stories came along those lines. But not in the proof-evidence to which christians (christian theology and study by many people not just christians) seem to be obsessed with.
I remember in the early 90s the rapture was predicted. I kid you not, people were buying canned foods (like Armagedden) and the news really did report these events will happen. Nothing happened. It was about the same time Prince did his 1999 song.
But how does fulfilled prophecy sycronized or not make a valid reason to follow christ?
I mean, there are prophecies, beliefs, in many god-religions and event though some are true, that doesnt giev me a reason to follow. Supernatural in nature isnt a reason. Mysteries and gratitude for life in worship is one thing but going further to prove inside is par of the outside world to where those who don ots ee it are rejecting or blind is a bit too much (dont you think)
In other words, I look for truth in religions that are morally sound and their religious despite their history have a humble solitude and holistic aura that defines, in me, spiriutal maturity without the ego.
But anyway, Im shifting the goal post because predictions are personal so trying to research them as if they point to the christian god is going a bit to far.
My question is why do the predictions give you reason to believe in god? Whats in the prophecy makes it stick out compared to something else spiritual though mundain and earthly in nature?
I honestly call it syncronicity rather than supernatural predictions. Predictions that get "noticed" would need to be distinct, pass historical, and, cough, scientific (has to be proven that these events broke the laws of nature), beyond philosophical (no more Ifs and what Ifs), and trump psychological views on religious need to find pattern in the universe for mental and spiritual safety.
Also, Nichiren Dishonia predictions came true. Im sure other Buddhist stories came along those lines. But not in the proof-evidence to which christians (christian theology and study by many people not just christians) seem to be obsessed with.
I remember in the early 90s the rapture was predicted. I kid you not, people were buying canned foods (like Armagedden) and the news really did report these events will happen. Nothing happened. It was about the same time Prince did his 1999 song.
But how does fulfilled prophecy sycronized or not make a valid reason to follow christ?
I mean, there are prophecies, beliefs, in many god-religions and event though some are true, that doesnt giev me a reason to follow. Supernatural in nature isnt a reason. Mysteries and gratitude for life in worship is one thing but going further to prove inside is par of the outside world to where those who don ots ee it are rejecting or blind is a bit too much (dont you think)
In other words, I look for truth in religions that are morally sound and their religious despite their history have a humble solitude and holistic aura that defines, in me, spiriutal maturity without the ego.
But anyway, Im shifting the goal post because predictions are personal so trying to research them as if they point to the christian god is going a bit to far.
My question is why do the predictions give you reason to believe in god? Whats in the prophecy makes it stick out compared to something else spiritual though mundain and earthly in nature?
I wasn't quite sure how far back to start. My purpose was simply to say that the "supernatural" can be historically viewed. But your application was correct.
Yes... many so called "predictions" can be subjective and in many cases is.
When I played basketball, when someone made a three point shot we use to say, "That was just luck" as we threw the ball back to the shooter.
When the made the second shot we would say "You have to make three in a row to convince us that it is skill", to apply pressure. On top of that we would roll the ball so that he would have to move himself from his stationary position. The pressure was on !!
When they made the third one, we shut up.
I got this from a site (information is correct but I don't want to recommend the site as I am not familiar with it)
1. Israel Destroyed and the Land Destroyed.
"The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur-nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger." (Deuteronomy 29:23).
Back in 1867, American writer Mark Twain wrote about the land at the time saying, "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes… the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies… Palestine is desolate and unlovely… It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land."
OK... that was luck
2. Jerusalem's Temple Mount to be Destroyed & Plowed Under
"Therefore because of you, Zion will be plowed like a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of rubble, the temple hill a mound overgrown with thickets." (Micah 3:12 NIV). This plowing of the temple mount literally happened at the second destruction of the temple mound by the Romans in AD 135.
This was predicted in 700BC (Roman empire was just starting) - But hey, two could be chance
3. The Hebrew Language Would Be Resurrected
As the Jews were scattered throughout the world, they gradually stopped speaking their native Hebrew and picked up the languages of the countries where they fled. After many centuries, few Jews could speak Hebrew or even read the Torah (the Law).
But Zephaniah predicted the revival of the Hebrew language. The Living Bible paraphrases that verse this way: “At that time I will change the speech of my returning people to pure Hebrew so that all can worship the Lord together."
God orchestrated this revival of spoken and written Hebrew through a single Orthodox Jew who took the name Eliezer Ben-Yehuda. Almost singlehandedly, despite great opposition from his own people, this man resurrected the Hebrew tongue as he studied the Hebrew language all over the world." This became Eliezer's lifelong mission from God, and he reintroduced Hebrew to Palestine where it eventually became Israel's native tongue. (You can read the amazing story of how God used this man to fulfill this prophecy here: The Revival of the Hebrew Language.)
This is nothing short of a miracle. Never before has ANY group of people been overtaken and dispersed and maintained their language. But... might make me stop talking and think... but holding on to whether it is enough
4. . Israel Would be Reborn in a Day.
"Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children." (Isaiah 66:8 NIV).
Israel, a country that had not really existed as a separate nation for nearly 2,500 years, was declared a new sovereign state by an act of the United Nations on May 14, 1948. The nation was literally born in a single day just as God predicted it would be.
This is four. Now I can start thinking about supernatural IMO. Too many coincidences to be casually thrown to the side
5. A Worldwide Return of Jews to Israel
"I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered -- with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath." (Ezekiel 20:34)
"Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth…" (Isaiah 43:5-6 NIV).
5 and counting and we see it happening right now
6. The Jews Would Return to Jerusalem
"This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God.'" (Zechariah 8:7-8).
Although Israel became a nation in 1948, the Jews did not have control over Jerusalem until 1967 when they recaptured the city during the Six Day War.
6 and many saw miracles happen during the Six Day War to make it happen (or coincidences as some would say?) But the prophecy thousands of years earlier, imo at this point, something supernatural is happening.
7. Trees Will Grow Again in the Wasteland.
"I will put in the desert the cedar and the acacia, the myrtle and the olive. I will set junipers in the wasteland, the fir and the cypress together,
so that people may see and know, may consider and understand,
that the hand of the Lord has done this, that the Holy One of Israel has created it." (Isaiah 41:19-20 NIV).
This passage emphasizes that trees and forests will be established in the wasteland which is what Israel was. During the past century, more than 200 million trees have been planted in Israel. The replanted forests are flourishing in this tiny country because it has built a network of irrigation systems all causing the land to bloom. And truly, the Lord brought it all about as he promised through his prophets.
7 the fact that it was a wasteland, IMV, at this point we can only say that someone other than just man was involved in this
Now, of course, this is my reasoning and thinking. Someone else will probably not agree at all. Ultimately, one has to be convinced for themselves.
I remember when a pastor said to me, "Do you want to accept Jesus?" I replied "No"!
Not "no" forever, but "no" you haven't given me enough answer for me to be convinced. It's a personal journey that only one can take for themselves. Some will say "no" others will say "yes" and each convinced of their position.
All you have said is true and won't argue the points. They are reasonable positions.
Your last question... the prophecies (such as the ones that I just mentioned in my last post) for me validated that there is something there to look at, ponder and consider. As I looked at statistical probabilities for all the prophecies about Jesus to be fulfilled, it is so astronomical that it is listed as "impossible to happen" and yet it did.
I say "for me", because I am not you and most likely at a different position in life at that time than maybe you are today. My questions may not have been yours.
Certainly I would love you to believe in God, but, if all I did was to become a catalyst for you to consider that there is a God and your faith journey started, well... I would be happy with that!
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I wasn't quite sure how far back to start. My purpose was simply to say that the "supernatural" can be historically viewed. But your application was correct.
Yes... many so called "predictions" can be subjective and in many cases is.
When I played basketball, when someone made a three point shot we use to say, "That was just luck" as we threw the ball back to the shooter.
When the made the second shot we would say "You have to make three in a row to convince us that it is skill", to apply pressure. On top of that we would roll the ball so that he would have to move himself from his stationary position. The pressure was on !!
When they made the third one, we shut up.
I got this from a site (information is correct but I don't want to recommend the site as I am not familiar with it)
1. Israel Destroyed and the Land Destroyed.
"The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur-nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger." (Deuteronomy 29:23).
Back in 1867, American writer Mark Twain wrote about the land at the time saying, "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes… the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies… Palestine is desolate and unlovely… It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land."
OK... that was luck
2. Jerusalem's Temple Mount to be Destroyed & Plowed Under
"Therefore because of you, Zion will be plowed like a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of rubble, the temple hill a mound overgrown with thickets." (Micah 3:12 NIV). This plowing of the temple mount literally happened at the second destruction of the temple mound by the Romans in AD 135.
This was predicted in 700BC (Roman empire was just starting) - But hey, two could be chance
3. The Hebrew Language Would Be Resurrected
"For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language, that they all may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one accord." (Zephaniah 3:9 NASB)
As the Jews were scattered throughout the world, they gradually stopped speaking their native Hebrew and picked up the languages of the countries where they fled. After many centuries, few Jews could speak Hebrew or even read the Torah (the Law).
But Zephaniah predicted the revival of the Hebrew language. The Living Bible paraphrases that verse this way: “At that time I will change the speech of my returning people to pure Hebrew so that all can worship the Lord together."
God orchestrated this revival of spoken and written Hebrew through a single Orthodox Jew who took the name Eliezer Ben-Yehuda. Almost singlehandedly, despite great opposition from his own people, this man resurrected the Hebrew tongue as he studied the Hebrew language all over the world." This became Eliezer's lifelong mission from God, and he reintroduced Hebrew to Palestine where it eventually became Israel's native tongue. (You can read the amazing story of how God used this man to fulfill this prophecy here: The Revival of the Hebrew Language.)
This is nothing short of a miracle. Never before has ANY group of people been overtaken and dispersed and maintained their language. But... might make me stop talking and think... but holding on to whether it is enough
4. . Israel Would be Reborn in a Day.
"Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children." (Isaiah 66:8 NIV).
Israel, a country that had not really existed as a separate nation for nearly 2,500 years, was declared a new sovereign state by an act of the United Nations on May 14, 1948. The nation was literally born in a single day just as God predicted it would be.
This is four. Now I can start thinking about supernatural IMO. Too many coincidences to be casually thrown to the side
5. A Worldwide Return of Jews to Israel
"I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered -- with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath." (Ezekiel 20:34)
"Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth…" (Isaiah 43:5-6 NIV).
The Jews had been scattered to virtually every country in the world. But over the years, many have felt compelled to return to their ancestral homeland (especially as they experienced persecution). So it started slowly, but bit by bit they began to come from the east, the west, the north and the south returning to Israel. During the past century, millions of Jews returned, from the Middle East; from the west (Europe and the United States); from the north (in Russia); from the south (Ethiopia); and from the ends of the earth, just as it had all been predicted.
5 and counting and we see it happening right now
6. The Jews Would Return to Jerusalem
"This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God.'" (Zechariah 8:7-8).
Although Israel became a nation in 1948, the Jews did not have control over Jerusalem until 1967 when they recaptured the city during the Six Day War.
6 and many saw miracles happen during the Six Day War to make it happen (or coincidences as some would say?) But the prophecy thousands of years earlier, imo at this point, something supernatural is happening.
7. Trees Will Grow Again in the Wasteland.
"I will put in the desert the cedar and the acacia, the myrtle and the olive. I will set junipers in the wasteland, the fir and the cypress together,
so that people may see and know, may consider and understand,
that the hand of the Lord has done this, that the Holy One of Israel has created it." (Isaiah 41:19-20 NIV).
This passage emphasizes that trees and forests will be established in the wasteland which is what Israel was. During the past century, more than 200 million trees have been planted in Israel. The replanted forests are flourishing in this tiny country because it has built a network of irrigation systems all causing the land to bloom. And truly, the Lord brought it all about as he promised through his prophets.
7 the fact that it was a wasteland, IMV, at this point we can only say that someone other than just man was involved in this
Now, of course, this is my reasoning and thinking. Someone else will probably not agree at all. Ultimately, one has to be convinced for themselves.
I remember when a pastor said to me, "Do you want to accept Jesus?" I replied "No"!
Not "no" forever, but "no" you haven't given me enough answer for me to be convinced. It's a personal journey that only one can take for themselves. Some will say "no" others will say "yes" and each convinced of their position.
I read your blue remarks. For some reason I dont buy it. Heres why...
Supernatural is all throughout history in all different types of religions. I am sure you are bias to christianity (see truth through christian criteria) but just in general, why would there be biblical prophecies but then that excludes other religions that have their prophecies as well?
Prophecies doesnt lead me to believe since....
I remember couple years ago I told about my experience after my grandmother passed away. I usually walk to the store and everywhere else since everything is walking distance. So,I get to a four way intersection I have crossed zillions of times. I wasnt thinking of my grandmother but of the cars.
So, a car ran the light and someone shoved my right shoulder back making me topple backwards. It was so distinct that I said-thank you grandma. I called my former friend who is christian and told her about my comment. I started to be skeptical and anylze it and she says dont analyze it (go with the flow). Was it luck? No.
To me, it was my grandmother. To my friend it was god. To a doctor I was grieving. To an atheist, Im nuts. But I know it wasnt in my head. Call it the force. Call it god. Doesnt matter. I dont need to confirm it by other peoples experiences. It doesnt need a history or anything like that. It is a fact between myself, my grandmother, and how I see and interpret reality.
Another example is at the bus stop (or any time) I can time when the bus comes by Threes. For some reason, and in youre example, things happen in threes. I say to myself I forgot my watch in my apartment. The first time I go, I dont miss the bus. The second time, its a risk. The third time I miss it. So, Im debating to go and if I said -the bus will come- it doesnt. But when I clearn my mind and trick myself by turning towards my apartment without intent to go, the bus comes.
Some call it coinsedence. I did it so many times and when I was young then too, that I just put it in my daily routine. My brother has it stronger. It skipped my sister though (other things we have not jst the three rule.) I think Murphys Law has something to do with it. Then you have religious that have self-fullfiling prophecy. They already believe in god so when someone saves them from being, they dont think of Vishnu, The Buddha, or their fiteeth generation ancestor. They think god.
So, belief in god, prophecies, etc are in the eye of the beholder.
Think about it,though. If those prophecies stood out as christians say it would literally be something stuided and it would be a universal understood fact. Syncronized (not luck) events doesnt hit the high charts unless, as a christian nation (US ideally) we already have self-fulfilling prochecy that any connection is a evidence and revelation from god.
Anyway, I dont buy the prohecies. Unfortunately, I cant talk about the specifics in history and scripture authority; but, I do know if it was something factual, it would not just be a record in history.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, in my car-experience, I say its from my point of view. I went on a genoleology fringe and became interested in religions that revenerate ancestors. If I believed in a god or deity, I would definitely see god through the eyes of my family. Since I know my family more than god, they would be good intermediaries to my understanding of it.
I talked with someone who has this belief and got a reading from him. I think I lost my money but in general he said to look at my ancestors. I looked it up online about false readings and there is an assumption that african americans are looking for their ancestry so if that is a prediction, its almost a hit or miss.
It wouldnt be the christian god since human sacrifice doesnt figure into my line of thinking. But the idea of a creator is so foreign to me its like saying (and Im being honest) a four legged, purple Zamaphefat created just us. Its a foriegn language. I just think christianity is popular but not by far a way I go to know god.
If I practiced christianity again, Id be catholic. One because the jesus is the physical meal that in it christians are born, sacrificed, and revived as a unit or Church. So knowing christ is knowing the Passion (in my view) not christ the person himself.
I just wish it wasnt human sacrifice. That just creeps me out. All the other details-salvaiton, eternal life, and god love people and hating (displaying emotions) is totally totally um totally off.
Anyway, Im rambling. Even on RF reading atheist and non-believer talk, I just dont relate. I can talk christian with the best of them experience, study, and all-got one peron here thought I was--but its more than reading, prophecies, history, etc.
If none of these exist and only god, would you still believe and for what reason beside what he offers and proh* etc?
Do you believe in him for his nature or him for the benefit or gift he provides you and signs he shows you?
At this point... to be honest, yes. Since I have already been convinced, obviously I have that bias. I find that prophecies by other religions have either been wrong, or don't exist.
I don't want to press the point as I'm trying to find where you want to start since I'm still trying to locate where you are at.
However, if what happened to you was in a book written 50 years ago that said it was going to happen, I think that changes the perspective.
So, maybe I should ask you questions. Do you believe there is a God? If so (or not) why?
(Just read your second response... maybe it would be better to start there)
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My faith is a mixture of reasons.
Certainly, as you said, His nature -- that of love that I have experienced (and not just read about)
The instantaneous change that happened in my wife and I. (Which I didn't understand as to why until I learned what was written)
Certainly the veracity of what I have read. (whether prophecies or promises)
The miracles that have happened and continue.
And (for me) it the whole of the narrative just makes logical sense. (This, of course, happened after I learned more about what was written)
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Rats... RF makes me think I wrote small until I press the reply. Edit.
Ha. Ill try to keep it short.
No. No creator or deity. It never ented my mind given medical issues etc. I had no reason to ponder the origin of the universe. No one brought it up.
I sumed the name god, tao, force, energy, or spirit as life. Either origin, sustainer, noun, or verb its pretty much the same. Sometimes I say spirit to refer to life but its not a noun so it. just. is.
Ha. Ill try to keep it short.
No. No creator or deity. It never ented my mind given medical issues etc. I had no reason to ponder the origin of the universe. No one brought it up.
I sumed the name god, tao, force, energy, or spirit as life. Either origin, sustainer, noun, or verb its pretty much the same. Sometimes I say spirit to refer to life but its not a noun so it. just. is.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I had similar feelings with The Dharma (Buddhism). There isnt a spirit-ual component involved but not atheistic by far not. When I read The Dharma (the suttas) rebirth, truths, etc explained life so perfectly that I was drawn to the Practice.
The States are ephatic over whats written is fact and whats said is opinion; so, unlike manyo f my buddhist counterparts, I understand the connection between faith and whats written. I dont idolize the Dharma since The actual Dharma is practice rather than written suttas.
But all in all, since we arent different species, there is some simularities. Because there are, belief in god or jehosephat doesnt seem different externally. What makes a diference is internal experiences.
One big thing about The Dharma is that everything we perceive and experience both supernatural and not are all from the mind. Having seizures and strugging with mental health issues with interest in how the brain and mind works, that pretty much confirmed my experiences in a less medical jargon sense.
I mean, I experience things from the heart but I realize the brain/mind controls the heart not the other way around. So learning and applying The Dharma as a practice influences how I experience things by heart.
Maybe, just maybe, there is more to the heart that what you thought.
7 Scientific Reasons You Should Listen To Your Heart (Not Your Brain)
In Christianese, the heart is the seat of your spirit.
It sounds like you are already on your journey. Loved sharing and would enjoy it if we continued.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Maybe, just maybe, there is more to the heart that what you thought.
7 Scientific Reasons You Should Listen To Your Heart (Not Your Brain)
In Christianese, the heart is the seat of your spirit.
It sounds like you are already on your journey. Loved sharing and would enjoy it if we continued.
Thanks. Pretty much. I figured my heart is fickled in itself. I can jump on every other religion because I am connected to auras and houses of worship. However, when I started looking more into The Dharma and attachments, it kinda put me into place so to speak. So, dont go by heart first; Im too curious a bunny to do that.
I stick with the Dharma and let my art make me go wild. At least I can do it all in my lonesome and get paint on my nose without needing to hold the brush just right or see whether my poetry follows the right syllables and stanzas.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Maybe, just maybe, there is more to the heart that what you thought.
7 Scientific Reasons You Should Listen To Your Heart (Not Your Brain)
In Christianese, the heart is the seat of your spirit.
It sounds like you are already on your journey. Loved sharing and would enjoy it if we continued.
Before I got my heart checked out given my new symptoms, the nurse was doing an ultrasond on me. She was describing the connection betwen brain and heart. Since my illness is brain related and they are checking my heart so two with one stone.
She says many people think the brain controls the heart when its the heart that controls the brain. She explained that the heart sends oxygen (and so forth the details) to where the brain can function. It made common sense from a medical perspective: the physical heart and brain. When a person has an anxiety attack or depressed (or rubs a pet) you can pick it up on the EEG and EKG.
Then you have the heart (emotions and sense of self) and the mind (awareness, thoughts, and perspectives about sense of self). So, in order for the emotions and sense of self, the heart, to have meaning so we wont be flying at each feeling we get, our minds interpret why we believe x and not y.
In scripture, I relate this to dont go off your feelings to understand the word. In that light, there is some reason between knowing its god or the devil masking as an angel of light (revelations somewhere).
I think its a give or take. Thank god! pun intended, my heart is completely healthy. They are checking my balance, but balance does come from the brain respectively. While the heart is the pump, without the brain, what is religious feeling (soul, consciousness, god) other than lots of blood and oxygen if there is no mind to interpert what is X compared to Y? Thinking out loud.
Reading the website now.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
There is no problem in stating how Jesus gave His all for all, then allowed for us to receive or reject Him of our free will. Choosing between X and X is no choice/is not a free will decision.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
If Jesus is God he did not give hisall.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
You are 100% right if faith means "Blind trust" rather than "Trust when one has good, sounds reasons to trust".
I trust Jesus, not blindly/invisibly, but with good reason.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Haha. I dont know why this went over my head. Cute. Did you know that Christianese is a mix of many older languages and not unique to itself?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Nope. God rejects humans who dont follow him for whatever reason-rejection is just one of many reasons why people dont follow.
If god did not reject, our rejection wouldnt be a consequence because ideally god would support us regardless of how we feel about him. (Thats what a parent does; love without strings attached)
LOL... had no idea there was such a thing. I relegate Christianese as the cultural lingo that Christians use... sometimes to the detriment of the hearer who has no idea what it means.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Naw. There isnt such a thing. We sometimes say "thats like chinese" idiom to say we dont know what he heck youre talking about. Dont ask where we got that from. A lot of religious and racial slurs in the States.