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Many Religions Make for a Better World than One (or None)

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think people use religion to stay ignorant most of the time. They don't know if what's in the book is true and are afraid to find out. That type of religion is useless because you understand nothing more than what the book has outlined for you and cannot peek at any of the machinery without offending some guru.

It can become an indirect force of good even in that case if you get enough apes together eventually they figure something out and come up with tools regardless of what they believe. But, it's not the belief system that should be given credit as it is merely incidental in this case.

One true way and monopoly of religion is also rather amusing because if anything is the case is that through time religions die off. People aren't married to the old thing for long and even religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have been reinvented several times over history they are the same in name only.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Except God has given a message and told us what is best for all of us in this age.

We are in a time of transition, finding our unity.

Peace be with you.

Unequivocal evidence or only your belief in such? Why so many different religions if there is indisputable proof of this? Your belief is just one of many, and all essentially without any proof behind them. Which of course fuels the divisions, debates, and hostility. We certainly are in a time of transition - and always have been - hopefully to a better place, but religions can't guarantee that and never will. All we can hope for - and with which I suspect many atheists would agree - is that religions just play less of a role in society and less of a role in personal lives, such that people get on better without having such fabricated barriers between them. Few I imagine will expect religions to die off altogether - not me at least. I am in general quite realistic in what I see about me.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Unequivocal evidence or only your belief in such? Why so many different religions if there is indisputable proof of this? Your belief is just one of many, and all essentially without any proof behind them. Which of course fuels the divisions, debates, and hostility. We certainly are in a time of transition - and always have been - hopefully to a better place, but religions can't guarantee that and never will. All we can hope for - and with which I suspect many atheists would agree - is that religions just play less of a role in society and less of a role in personal lives, such that people get on better without having such fabricated barriers between them. Few I imagine will expect religions to die off altogether - not me at least.

A mountain of evidence for me, but each must decide for themselves.

No debate from me, I just offer the good I find in all Faiths.

Peace be with you
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think people use religion to stay ignorant most of the time. They don't know if what's in the book is true and are afraid to find out.

A person of Faith has no fear or ignorance of what they believe.

Those that choose not to see the Truth enshrined in the Holy Books, may stand accused as you have so kindly noted.

Peace be with you.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A person of Faith has no fear or ignorance of what they believe.

Those that choose not to see the Truth enshrined in the Holy Books, may stand accused as you have so kindly noted.

Peace be with you.

They have no fear or ignorance simply because they have no awareness. The dog is completely unaware of impending peril in most cases, but is happy up and to that point.

I don't believe there is a Holy Book or an absolute Truth, and certainly none of you Bible thumpers have it. :D If you did you wouldn't need those books or a faith you'd just directly know. Those books are of course more important to you than Jehovah or Jesus to you now because they are the known quantity. It's like saying, "I've been running around in the dark all this time, but we found this book! Ok, this book must be important!" You're still in the dark, holding a book. The book is the God effectively, you are more worried about offending anything in there than Jehovah himself and that book was written by men. :D

Not worried about damnation, being accused, or judged or any of that nonsense because none of you would be able to prove any of that happens or even exists.

Infernally yours,

Mind. :D
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
All religions might have something beautiful to offer, but do we go by aesthetics? Religions might tell us about a mountain (an internal one), but if one tells us to stay at stay base camp or takes away all the tools needed to climb I'd not say that they are making a better world. Of course the ones who say that the mountain doesn't exist will stay at base camp with them arguing over some details...
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They have no fear or ignorance simply because they have no awareness. The dog is completely unaware of impending peril in most cases, but is happy up and to that point.

I don't believe there is a Holy Book or an absolute Truth, and certainly none of you Bible thumpers have it. :D If you did you wouldn't need those books or a faith you'd just directly know. Those books are of course more important to you than Jehovah or Jesus to you now because they are the known quantity. It's like saying, "I've been running around in the dark all this time, but we found this book! Ok, this book must be important!" You're still in the dark, holding a book. The book is the God effectively, you are more worried about offending anything in there than Jehovah himself and that book was written by men. :D

Not worried about damnation, being accused, or judged or any of that nonsense because none of you would be able to prove any of that happens or even exists.

Infernally yours,

Mind. :D

I see you have absolutely no idea of what I said and impute many things based on that lack of understanding.

Its ok, I do not mind.

Peace be with you
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I see you have absolutely no idea of what I said and impute many things based on that lack of understanding.

Its ok, I do not mind.

Peace be with you

You speak in the language of a zealot, so you were addressed as one. Who exactly do you think you're fooling?

I have no lack of understanding but rather a lack of information on why else you would make such statements. Rather than address any of my points or refute them you decided to take the easy way out and make it about me. That's OK, I've been around forums for awhile and know when people are just avoiding directly answering the previous post because they have nothing to "work with". If anything I said was disagreeable you certainly could have refuted that, instead of coping out.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have no lack of understanding but rather a lack of information on why else you would make such statements.

If you were interested, you would have asked. I can see your not interested by your replies and I am happy not to push what I beleive on to you.

Peace be with you always.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If you were interested, you would have asked. I can see your not interested by your replies and I am happy not to push what I beleive on to you.

Peace be with you always.

Yes, I'm not interested in preaching or blocks of wood. You can't push your beliefs on me by merely discussing them, since they undoubtedly not change my beliefs which are based on my experiences. I doubt that my conversation would change yours either, but that wasn't the point -- it was to understand those beliefs which is the raison d'etre of the entire forum.

If I wasn't interested in replies why would I even post? The whole thread is just becoming one big, tu quo que.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Thoughts?

I think the world and mankind is far better off with diversity, rather than without it. But I would place a condition on it, and that would be religions that adhere to this basic principle of live and let live, be tolerant, and all that, are the ones that make the world a better place. Those religious adherents who believe their particular way is the right way for all of humanity, we could do without those. That very basic learning disability to think your tastes, your ideas are somehow superiour to all others is just missing so much. When you have the option to interpret your scripture with the idea that your duty is to convince others your way is right, even to the point of using violence against other humans ... well sorry, the rest of us don't really want you around.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Every so often, someone will voice the opinion that the world would be better off if everybody followed some particular religion. The reasons why someone supposes this vary somewhat, but essentially boil down to the belief that this religion is the best way or even the only true way. Similar opinions are voiced in the name of irreligion when we hear someone state the world would be better off if nobody followed any religions at all. That opinion also holds the assumption that their way is the best way or perhaps the only true way. In both cases, accepting these opinions as true would mean discarding any potential value that religious diversity has for humanity. That's quite the tall order indeed, as it doesn't take much to recognize that many religions - religious diversity - makes for a better world than one religion or none at all.

There are various ways one could argue the case for this, but I'm going to borrow from an author I read regularly who is the inspiration for this thread. The list below is inspired by that work, but also different from it, but to give credit where credit is due, that article is here (A World With Many Religions is Better Than a World With Only One).

  • All religions have something beautiful to offer. Further, the ways in which these religions are beautiful are different. That is, if you remove any one of them, you loose something amazing. This isn't to say all these religions don't also have their ugly sides, but is it really worth loosing that beauty to remove some blemishes? Talk about throwing out the seeds with the soil.
  • One religion (or none at all) is not a sustainable condition. History shows us what happens when humans lack choices, as our nature begs for options. Attempts at monopolies fail - the authoritarian structure become corrupt over time, and people beg for something different when the monopoly inevitably fails to meet someone's particular needs. One way cannot last and will fragment into many. So why try and force a monopoly of religion (or irreligion) in the first place?
  • There's no way to know if something is the "One True Way". Many hearken to the notion of one religion for all (or no religions for anyone) because they want certainty. There is no such certainty to be had. If there is a "best" or "right" way, we'll never agree on what that is or know if we've found it. We can only know what is "best" or "right" for us and our communities right now... and that answer can chance over time. A monopoly doesn't give you options when your needs change.
Thoughts?

If the one way-ers would stop to think about their implicit belief that they know the will of God fully enough to judge others (even against what Jesus teaches) they would realize the dark path they are treading. We should expect many amazingly beautiful and diverse understandings of a God whose power and nature is beyond the understanding of humanity...even humans who are Christian.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
That's a point the author of the article which inspired this thread didn't really touch upon, but its an important one. They were responding to an unusual influx of preachers and proselytizers, and I think for those folks they are under the impression that if they say the right words, those of us following the "wrong" religion will see the light and convert. That is to say, to them it is not a forceful process. It's "opening their eyes to the truth" or whatnot.

If only such people would learn from their failures and listen to the God that speaks back to them through those failures...
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I think the world and mankind is far better off with diversity, rather than without it. But I would place a condition on it, and that would be religions that adhere to this basic principle of live and let live, be tolerant, and all that, are the ones that make the world a better place. Those religious adherents who believe their particular way is the right way for all of humanity, we could do without those. That very basic learning disability to think your tastes, your ideas are somehow superiour to all others is just missing so much. When you have the option to interpret your scripture with the idea that your duty is to convince others your way is right, even to the point of using violence against other humans ... well sorry, the rest of us don't really want you around.

In this day and age we must understand what you have just said as a primary article of not just a good democracy, but of a humble stance before God.

When it was said that the rain falls on the just and unjust alike, it doesnt just mean that God does not seem to care, it means you don't know the mind of God. He who judges another risks the judgement of God.
 

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
I'd give lip service, pledge fealty, what's ever needed to to survive. While cursing them all when they aren't looking. I suspect I wouldn't be alone and they'd soon have a rebellion.

In that you are correct.
I see other sheep I have, that are not of this fold, being the key to our unity.

Nonsense. Jesus was speaking to the Disciples (His current flock) about the people who would believe on Him because of their preaching and writing... which would teach the nations what Jesus had taught to them.

The Kingdom Gospel is not at all about unity. Jesus says He came with a sword which would separate a faithful man... from the members of his own family, if they would not believe Jesus and actively follow Him. The action of that sword has not ended. And at the two reapings, we will see the results of the dividing sword of the Lord and His Son. Because only those who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus will ever be called sheep.

And the Commandment of God has always been about having no other gods in front of His face. When Jesus is asked which commandments we must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus quotes the 10 Commandments. While it is true that Jesus doesn' mention anything but the five which relate to man's duty to man, Jesus tells us that our duty to God is to love Him with everything that we are, heart mind soul body. That cannot be done if a man has other gods/idols.

Jesus calls the unity of all other gods the harlot of Babylon.

Unity requires humility.

Matthew 11:28-30 "Come unto Me, all that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke easy, and My burden is light."

Or this yoke (translated as balances):

Revelation 6:5-6 "And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine."

These will be the only two choices... the last one is all about unity.
 
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Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
I think people use religion to stay ignorant most of the time. They don't know if what's in the book is true and are afraid to find out. That type of religion is useless because you understand nothing more than what the book has outlined for you and cannot peek at any of the machinery without offending some guru.

You aren't suggesting that ignorant people are useless, are you? Just a joke. :p

That aside, I'm not exactly disagreeing with the sentiment here. Religion has often been used to foster ignorance for the express purpose of controlling information and the people who receive it. I believe wholeheartedly in the exposition of people who exploit religion in this way.

But, as it has been said already many times this is certainly not an exclusively religious trait. People prey on ignorance to sell cars on the daily, for example. That's a human trait. The strong prey on the weak. In this case, the strong minded prey on the weak minded. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying its going to keep happening forever, because it works. Religion is just being used to mask basic human greed. It would be nice if we could get rid of that, but I don't think that's possible without murdering ambition at the same time. That sort of cuts us off at the knees as a species.

Of course, there is also the sort of ignorance that people impose on themselves. The thing about this is that they are literally deciding to consider the question answered and moving on. This demonstrates that they are not interested in thinking about the answer. This sort of behavior doesn't exist in a vacuum, though. In truth, many people who accept religious direction in this way are not really accepting it all. They are just paying lip-service to check a box. That's sort of shortcut isn't going to go away with religion either. Its a psychological defense mechanism. People use totally true scientific facts for the same exact reason. People will have little if any study let alone experiential, or empirical information regarding this scientific principle or that one, but they will answer question after question with principles nomenclature as if that says it all! With just basic questioning its easy to tell when someone really doesn't have the first clue what the Big Bang or Evolution is. They just know how and when to say those terms to 'win' an argument. They profess to strict empirical scientific worldview but could never be bothered to research or study a scrap of it. I would admit this is much less common than the religious version, but its not rare.

All I'm saying is humans be humans and we'll keep being humans with or without religion. Some of us just don't give so much attention to any of the topics we discuss here. That's not really their fault in many cases, and it certainly doesn't make them useless or even less than myself or anyone else. They just don't give as much of a crap as I or you might. I have a core group of friends that I see and speak to daily. Do you know what they think about religion? Neither do I, because they groan and change the subject anytime I bring it up. It just doesn't matter to them that much. But I know two are self-proclaimed Christians, though I've never seen them with a Bible, at Church or ever thinking, speaking or acting like they have an idea what 'being Christian' means (to themselves I mean, not in the general sense, I don't know what that means, either). Its not even a box they make let alone check. Removing religion wouldn't change a thing about them.

As you say, religion from this perspective of ignorance is mostly useless. Ignorance is a terrible plan no matter what side of it you're on or what is being ignored.

It can become an indirect force of good even in that case if you get enough apes together eventually they figure something out and come up with tools regardless of what they believe. But, it's not the belief system that should be given credit as it is merely incidental in this case.

Fair enough. I suppose I don't always expose the exploiters so long as they bend the sheep towards something positive. But as you say, that's incidental and shouldn't be considered a 'benefit' of religion, or at least I won't consider it a benefit. Its a pretty thin silver lining at best.

One true way and monopoly of religion is also rather amusing because if anything is the case is that through time religions die off. People aren't married to the old thing for long and even religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have been reinvented several times over history they are the same in name only.

I would agree with this, also. This is why I view religion as expression on a cultural level. The 'artist' in this case is society (or more appropriately a society). The artist's works change with time. Religion has a way of resisting change, but it does change all the same. The artist grows and its work grows with it. And since it is from a societal level, societies merge. Big changes then, yeah? The Roman adoption of Christianity comes to mind. We're even now discussing the topic on a forum that is meant to consider every angle. Simply by allowing the consumption of other ideas inspires and modifies the thinking of everyone who participates. We're changing it all right now, essentially. Without many views and many religions we are deprived of that.

I wanted to be sure about this, but I'm pretty sure that 'many religions' includes atheism despite atheism not being a religion. I'm not sure if the OP intended that, but I certainly consider the atheist perspective to be as important to the 'diversity of religion' as any religious perspective.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I wanted to be sure about this, but I'm pretty sure that 'many religions' includes atheism despite atheism not being a religion. I'm not sure if the OP intended that, but I certainly consider the atheist perspective to be as important to the 'diversity of religion' as any religious perspective.

Atheism is a religion, but only in the sense that they are unable to obtain proof of X so X doesn't exist. (X is whatever god here) That doesn't mean it doesn't or they actually know it, but that they won't accept it based on their conditions for proof. They could be completely wrong, ultimately, and some atheists are honest with this possibly. Thus, the religion in Atheism is their dogma in relation to what proofs are acceptable. If information falls outside of these acceptable proofs, then the average Atheist is just as a vehement faither as the average Christian. :D
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Atheism is a religion, but only in the sense that they are unable to obtain proof of X so X doesn't exist. (X is whatever god here) That doesn't mean it doesn't or they actually know it, but that they won't accept it based on their conditions for proof. They could be completely wrong, ultimately, and some atheists are honest with this possibly. Thus, the religion in Atheism is their dogma in relation to what proofs are acceptable. If information falls outside of these acceptable proofs, then the average Atheist is just as a vehement faither as the average Christian. :D

It makes little difference to me honestly. Strict adherence to terminology is secondary to successful communication, so as it is that many atheists seem to reject the notion I'm more than happy to group both under the heading of philosophy and draw the same uncomfortable parallels for them. In this case, their inclusion into freedom of expression right along with 'many religions'. Hopefully, that doesn't freak them out.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
I believe that a person should independently investigate all of the religions, choose a religion or none, then tolerate what other people have chosen, or even appreciate what they have chosen. Then we will have a better world.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think people use religion to stay ignorant most of the time.

A person of Faith has no fear or ignorance of what they believe.

They have no fear or ignorance simply because they have no awareness

I don't believe there is a Holy Book or an absolute Truth, and certainly none of you Bible thumpers have it.

I see you have absolutely no idea of what I said and impute many things based on that lack of understanding.

You speak in the language of a zealot, so you were addressed as

If you were interested, you would have asked. I can see your not interested by your replies and I am happy not to push what I beleive on to you.

If I wasn't interested in replies why would I even post?

I have no idea why you posted, but to say Faith has nothing to offer you.

You definitly have not worded you replies with an intent on discovering more.

Peace be with you.
 
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