That's not how I understand the Trinity.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Could Jesus have been wrong?
- Thread starter Windwalker
- Start date
RESOLUTION
Active Member
The trinity was a concept which developed some time after Christ. You see the disciples knew what would happen and how teachings not in keeping with Christ would actually change the way the believer received the truth.
NOTE: The different beliefs of each sect calling themselves the true Christian.
John and Peter were very clear about the teachings creeping in which were not the correct teachings.
2 John 1.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Who came in the flesh?
1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Peter makes it very clear in Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
We have learned that God was with Christ and in the stoning of Stephen we see something very clear in the teachings of Acts of the Apostles.
Acts 7
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
God was with Jesus Christ according to the disciples and the Prophets. Moses was told by God that God would raise them up a Prophet like unto himself, whom God would put his words into his mouth.
Deuteronomy 18. God speaking to Moses.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
When Jesus said that his words were Spirit and they were life, and that God himself did his own work through him.
Thomas knew that Christ had God with him and the words he spoke were from God directly. God with him speaking through him. God has always spoken to man through the Holy Spirit.
The teachings of the OT confirm the NT teachings of the disciples that God was with Jesus and that Jesus is now at the right hand of God.
Christians are made one as Jesus and God are one by the power of Gods Spirit within them.
Jesus said to God... Make them one as we are one. So if believers all one as God and Jesus are one then being one with God and Jesus does not make us God or Jesus. The disciples and Peter. as well as the Prophets show God with Jesus and so Thomas proclaims my Lord and My God. He is does not say My Lord God. That is what the word teaches me. What does the word teach you?
Oh, you're some sort of restorationist. I'm Catholic, so I'm not into that.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
For me it is about truth ONLY.
Good for you.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Why are you called Saint Frankenstein?
Ekleipsis
Member
The entire premise of Jesus being " sinless " is faulty if you believe that the " Joshua " ( The branch ) in scripture is Jesus
Guess it just depends on what you believe
Personally, I like the idea that God could come down here and experience the worst of what life has to offer
It's endearing
Guess it just depends on what you believe
Personally, I like the idea that God could come down here and experience the worst of what life has to offer
It's endearing
RESOLUTION
Active Member
I believe the answer comes from Jesus saying , " It not I who does the work but my Father does his own works through me"
"My words are Spirit and they are life! His teachings could not have been wrong but the way man has perceived those teachings later who are not born of the Spirit and Truth can get it wrong.
If you feel a particular teaching was wrong then you have to ask yourself why?
If you know both God and Jesus then you are on the right track. As each is accountable for the use of their gifts and the living in fruit of the Spirit, then each needs to ensure they have used both and not lost it.
God has a plan for every person and it is for that person to seek and live within that plan and walk with God.
Jesus dId not make mistakes because God was with him. He wasn't Peter or like Paul he knew where he came from and he knew where he was going. Not many humans can claim that though they can claim they know where they are going.
If Jesus acknowledges that it is not himself who does the work, but the Spirit, then what is the problem in understanding that Jesus the human was fallible? He says it right here that it's not himself that is perfect, but God. There is a dual nature here he is distinguishing between the fallible flesh, and the eternal Spirit within.
There's a few things here. I wasn't per se talking about the recorded teachings in my original question. I was talking about how he as a human being on this earth learned and grew like the rest of us. Like any of us, we make errors and mistakes. We grow and learn through those.
Are we to understand instead he grew up as some sort of celestial human who just glided up from infancy to adulthood never having to figure out how to get along with others or understand or know himself through struggle? If so, how is that something anyone of us could relate to?
But as far as the teachings go, everyone of us constantly as we mature in life have different perspectives on them. What they meant at one stage in our life, may mean something entirely different at another stage in our life. That's just simply a matter of maturity, not sin.
Well... God is with all of us. Yet because we are human, despite God being closer to us than our very own breath, we do stumble and fall. That's just the way of life on this planet. Jesus was like us in every respect this way. If he wasn't, then how could anyone hope to be like him? The scripture tells us to be like him. How could we if he was an extraterrestrial?
Anyone who knows God truly knows where they came from and where they are going.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Christ was not born of fallible flesh...
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You need to study further into the word.
Being fully human does not necessarily mean having a human father and Mother. Adam was fully human but did not have a human Father and Mother. Christ like Adam was not born from two human parents. There Father was God.
Who are we? And why don't you understand who Christ is, or how he grew into the man he was?
God can do anything are you trying to say that Christ was left alone and did not know God all his life.
King David what kind of man was he? Are you really questioning Christ and whom he was in his person?
Teach a child the RIGHT way he should go when he is young and he will never depart from it.
Anyone who knows God truly knows where they came from and where they are going.[/QUOTE]
Jesus was a virgin birth and second Adam all by the power of God.
Christ did all he did by the power of God and the teachings of John especially the part where he baptises with water but Christ baptised with the Holy Spirit should be the first main clue.
We become like Christ by doing as he did and following in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Read the bible it is all there.
After I got my degree in theology, I have continued my exploration of the Biblical texts to quite some depth and degree. That's led me to an understanding you don't quite see at this point. But thank you for encouraging me to "study further". You as well, my friend. Study further.
As for the above, you will note that the born not of blood nor the will of the flesh is in the context of verse 12 referring to those who receive God, us in other words. Yet, we are fallible in our humanness. If we are not born of blood or the will of the flesh, it must be referring to that Spirit within us, as distinctly not finite and fallible. The same is true of Jesus. If he is the Spirit in flesh, you have a dual nature, as do we. It's the "flesh" part that I'm talking about being flawed. If Jesus was also flesh, which he clearly was since he was put to death on a cross, then that flesh was just like ours. You can't crucify Spirit.
And God is our Father too, as Jesus instructed us how to pray saying "Our Father". Yet we have human parents. We are not just the flesh however, as we also acknowledge our spiritual Source. I don't need to believe Jesus had no human father to recognize that he was "from the Father". We don't need a magic sperm story in order to believe in Jesus.
I believe I do know who Christ is, and how Jesus the man grew into who he was. He walked his own path of spiritual awakening, the same as we do. That's what makes him, "Not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are." If he never struggled to discover God, just like us, then he would in fact be "unable to empathize with our weaknesses." To empathize, you have to have experienced it yourself. Otherwise it's just be pitying us, not actually identifying with us. That's my whole point of this thread.
I am saying the human behind the later myths, in order to empathize with us, would have to have shared the same struggles to overcome the weakness of the flesh, exactly like us. If he did not, then he could not empathize with us, nor could we look at him and take courage to "overcome the world" as he did.
I don't question the Christ. I question the stories that mythologize him, like the baby Buddha stories that have lotus blossoms growing in his footsteps as an infant.
There is a real human behind those later myths that inspired them.Another point of distinction here. I see a difference between "the Christ" and "Jesus" the human. The Christ is eternal Spirit. Jesus of Nazareth was a human who had to learn and fail, grow and struggle, weep, eat, sleep, love, and die, just like all of us. Christ is in all of us, like Christ was Jesus. Jesus the man, knew with "eyes wide opened" that Christ who he was eternally; that which lived in Jesus of Nazareth. The Christ is born of God, born of Spirit eternally. Jesus was born of Mary and Joseph, his human parents, just like you and I and everyone else are.
Amen. Now you're starting to understand. Now apply this to Jesus the human. He was just like us. He grew. He came to "truly know where [he] came from and where he was going", as you said about us.
I don't believe the virgin birth story as factual history. It's a great and inspiring story, like baby Buddha and the lotus blossoms in his footsteps, but if taken literally, it removes Jesus from being anyone we has humans could possibly hope to relate to. Again, my point of this thread.
Sure. We need to learn to do as he did. But he learned how to do this, and that is the point. He had to learn. If he could, we can! See the point yet?
Sure, all this is there. I've read it quite a lot over the past 30 some years.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
The word of God does require a degree in theology because the word of God is about truth not the texts.
I was an official of one of the Bishops in England and a member of the Church Council and Synod.
Does that make me more educated than most in the word of God?
I believe in Christ what makes people all the same is that they are born of the Spirit and the Truth. The high priest
and members of the Sanhedrin were better taught that the disciples simple fishermen. But it wasn't those God chose was it?
I think my posts explain everything by Spirit and Truth you were merely repeating what I said. The understanding is that
In your study you will have come across... 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
So when Christ died he was not spiritually dead and his body was dead from sin.
His flesh and spirit pure. He died for us in flesh and rose because he could not be held.
We see that we are made whole by his sacrifice and we are one Spirit made alive to God through the Holy Spirit.
"If you have no the Spirit then you are none of his."
No one said you did... It was as it said about being fully human does not require having a human Father and Mother.
More about the WORD of God and his power. You are not the only person on the forum and sometimes not the only one
who will read these posts. It helps for others to understand our own thoughts and beliefs.
Well done! for taking out of context what I actually said.
Who are we? And why don't you understand who Christ is, or how he grew into the man he was?
God can do anything are you trying to say that Christ was left alone and did not know God all his life.
King David what kind of man was he? Are you really questioning Christ and whom he was in his person?
this was in answer to your original post.
It should have been clear if you studied Gods word that Jews are taught the word of God off by heart from childhood.
40 And the child grew,
and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem;
and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey;
and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors,
both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us?
behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
As you can see the bible has dealt with this matter. We are to believe what was written about Christ
from the OT and be able to see the truth of the NT.
What I said was to help others reading my posts to understand the way of the bible truth being followed.
Thank you for making us aware of your studying history and qualifications.
God has clearly taught us in the OT and the NT...
The truth God has given can be understood by the unlearned and the learned who seek truth.
This says it all... In not believing in the virgin birth you are calling God a liar.
You see Luke 1 clearly tells us...
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore
also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
It is taught that Christ was born of a virgin and it tells us it was by the Holy Ghost
and the power of the Highest.
The authority of the name he came into the world by is the final and only authority.
If nothing impossible for God why do you believe such a thing to be false?
Eternal life is about believing what God has said about his only Son.
I remember a clergy man once saying the same thing...
David Jemkins claimed not to believe in the virgin birth. He was made bishop at York Minster
after his consecration the Minster struck by lightening and a fire broke out.
A man who claimed not to believe in the truth of God.
You have your choice as we all do. I believe with God nothing is impossible.
I believe the truth about Jesus saves.
I am not here to validate what the four gospels relate. I believe what the OT says
about the Messiah and I know Jesus put God at the centre of his love and loving others.
There is little point in carrying on with a conversation where you have no belief in what
is written or in the actual ability and power of God. Thank you.
The only reason I brought up my degree is in response to your thinking I've never read or studied the Bible. You assumed I haven't because I understand things about it differently than you.
In reality however, now that you bring this up, if you are talking about people who are actually educated versus not educated and picking up the Bible and just running off with whatever idea they may come up with through their ignorance, I think having some education is probably a far better idea than not. Otherwise you end up with these snake-handling churches and people getting bit, or any number of these other "restored church" end of times nonsense churches based on ignorant and even outright stupid readings of scripture.
I'll bet the Bishop knew more than you about scripture since he had formal education and training. One would, and should expect that to be the case. Do you think your knowledge and depth was equal to his?
That has absolutely nothing to do with an education and being a qualified leader of others. This a something separate from that. Yes, all have the Spirit of Truth, but that has nothing to do with depth or maturity or academic knowledge.
This can be very true, but that doesn't mean just because a 5 year old has experienced God that he magically becomes qualified to tell you about theology. Again, those are separate things. You shouldn't conflate them together like this. That is an error.
What is it with you that you assume I don't know the Bible? This verse is actually one I was thinking of to support what I was saying from the outset. Furthermore, what is it with you that assumes I don't know God or have the Spirit of Christ in my heart? Do you know what the Bible says about these? I'll let you pull out those verses for yourself. If you can't think of them, I can help you out with that. I know what the Bible says about putting yourself as the judge of another man's servant.
Well, as I said before, I am not a Biblical-literalist. So when I read what scripture says about Jesus, such as the story of when he was 12 and in the temple, I understand them contextual as part of the stories of the early Christian communities developing stories of their founding figure. I hear a recognition Jesus learned and grew, but if these stories are taken literally in such a way as it "deifies" young Jesus the man, it can have the effect of removing him from anything you or I could relate to! It "kicks Jesus upstairs," as Alan Watts famously put it.
That's my point about seeing Jesus more a human like you and I and relating ourselves to him on his path to Unity with God. Yes, scripture does deify him in places, and in others very much humanizes him. That's the beauty of these stories. They express many points of view of these early Christians trying to find themselves in relation with God in their changing world. In this, we too can find ourselves. But when we don't allow the stories to be more than some imagined strict, radical historical factual accounts of the supernatural, we miss the greater point. We can get stuck in the vividly colored picture-book version of Christian Faith.
According to how you approach it. Others approach it differently.
Absolutely yes. But don't mistake the "Truth of God" with understanding biblical texts. Those are two entirely different things. Everyone, both rich and poor, educated and uneducated can drink from that same Living Water, and it is equally, no more nor less cool and refreshing. But that Taste does not qualify you as a biblical expert anymore than it means you're magically a brain surgeon. Period.
No I am not at all. I am saying your understanding of the Biblical texts is that you can only read it one way, and insist all other Christians read it the same. God is not a liar, and nor are the people who wrote that story in the Bible. They believed it because it was part of how they imagined and thought about God. Thinking in those terms about God, is NOT a requirement of Faith, nor our Knowledge of God being dependent on it. If you make it that for others, you risk destroying their Faith by demanding that they abandon their reason to accept these stories as facts instead of metaphors.
Yes, it's a beautiful story full of rich symbolizism. It's great to embrace the truth of it, while still recognizing that doesn't mean it needs to be understood as a historical fact. I don't need it to be that, because my faith is capable of not needing it to be to find truth in it.
And you interpret this event as a an act of God? Do you imagine God to be like the Greek god Zeus, who sends lightning bolts down from Mount Olympus?
Why didn't God set him on fire and burn him to ash on the spot? Better still, why didn't he just spontaneously combust him, rather than doing something that happens fair regularly to people that could easily been seen as just one more natural occurrence as it is elsewhere. I'm sorry but no. I don't envision God like this:It is only your mind that is attaching divine significance to this, while ignore all the countless others, like me who don't believe in a literal interpretation of scripture having their lives blessed continually in no small measure? This is highly selective reasoning on your part which ignores all conflicting data.
The Truth of God, is God himself. I don't believe the biblical texts are God. Why should I? Are you saved by your ideas about things?
That is your choice. But I don't think it's very Christian of you to judge another man's servant based on the fact they think differently about God than you do.
What I would suggest for you is not to read more, but to listen more to what your heart tells you is Truth. More often than not, our beliefs obscure what the Spirit says. We become too attached to our own thinking to actually hear with our ears, and see with the eyes of the heart. That where Truth is found, not in either yours or my theologies.
Last edited:
DennisTate
Active Member
If... Multiverse Theory and non-linear time were true back in the times of Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus......
then it is no wonder that Rabbi Yeshua prayed:
Matthew 26:39
"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cuppass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
The Philosophical Implications of Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 events...
I have absolutely no idea how any of that relates to my post.
DennisTate
Active Member
Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus knew that in one time line.....
certain disasters could occur... whereas in a later time line... where more of the Holy Spirit is poured out.....
those disasters could be avoided.........
So he prayed in such a way that the answer to that prayer fitted in with all time lines......
This implies that he did not feel nailed down by all the prophecies about what he had to fulfill....
We seem to be living in a time line where one variation of the "mark of the beast" may have been delayed for around twenty years or so.
The Prophecies of Dannion Brinkley
Miracle
Christian
***Please, read the verses, please*** :'( :'(
Thank you for asking this question. Your question should really be: Is Jesus Christ man or God? It borders upon the idea that Jesus Christ is just a philosophical man who simply had transcendental ideas.
As a Christian, I believe Jesus Christ is God in human form (Philippians 2:6-11). He is the Holy Spirit dwelling in the flesh, in the human body. It's very similar to how mankind was made in Eden: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7). Notice man became a different entity although it is still a combination of earth and breathe, so Jesus Christ is a new entity--distinct but still God--made up of blood/flesh/dust and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ knew everything except when it came to his coming (Mark 13:32-35). Other than that, Jesus knew everything. If there is something you believe he didn't know, was ignorant of, or was wrong in any case please feel free to share. I am open to talk about anything relating to the Bible/faith/God. As for those who followed Jesus Christ, they are prone to make mistakes (not sins) because they are not God, although they can surely be like him. God is all knowing, however, we are not. Yes, God can reveal things to us, however, it can be now, tomorrow, or a few years from now or not at all. So we make due with what we have. As a Christian, your view is widened to encompass not just the physical but the spiritual, as well as our past, certain parts of the present, and small portions of the future.
As for flaws, quirks, emotionally-driven actions, judgment, errors; Jesus Christ had no flaws or errors.
Quirks, depending on the audience, most likely. However, everything Jesus did was for a purpose of which most of the time people didn't understand. For one thing, he often spoke in spiritual terms, rather, his responses were well rounded; it encompassed both the physical and spiritual. For example, in his conversation with Nicodemus about being born again (John 3:4-7). Signifying the work of salvation as a regenerative and restorative process (happens instantly) which cleanses the sinner of sin, making them no longer the children of the devil (1 John 3:8, John 8:44) but children of God (1 John 3:9, Romans 8:15, Ephesians 1:5, Galatians 4:7). Completly changing their nature from that of sin to that of righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:25). Emotionally driven actions are seen throughout the Bible, however, he never sinned. Of course, the truth will always hurt people. And let me be clear, there was never a moment Jesus Christ was trying to figure out himself. He knew exactly who he was as the body aged and the Spirit of God remained the same. Even at the age of 12, he went about his "father's business" (Luke 2:49). There were a few times Jesus was angry but anger is not a sin; "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath" (Ephesians 4:26). If you are angry, you should be able to forgive and not hold on to it for longer than a day.
There were no errors that Jesus Christ later corrected. He was perfect in everything. Now, when I say perfect, I am holy. Perfection, as defined by the Bible, is holiness (Matthew 5:48, 1 Peter 1:16). Another word would be sinless. All mean the same thing according to the Bible, of course, it has its distinct qualities, but the same regardless.
As for human struggles, things like a job, food, money, etc were nothing Christ really struggled with. However, he did encounter a lot of resistance from the Pharisees, Sadducees and other Jews. I want to clarify that none of these struggles were sins. As a Christian, you don't struggle with sin, you struggle with events that are in your ability to solve (most, if not all, of the time); things like paying for college, utility bills, getting a job etc. Those things aren't sins but, they shouldn't be our total priority. Our priority is first to God, which is what Jesus Christ established when he was on earth.
Everything Jesus Christ went through is an example of how Christians ought to live. We do not struggle with sin because Jesus Christ has taken away our sins (1 Peter 2:24). However, it doesn't mean we aren't in a battle/war for our souls (2 Corinthians 10:4-5, Ephesians 6:11-13) and it doesn't mean temptation won't come to try us. We have to be prepared at all times for what the enemy may throw at us. Our faith in Jesus Christ does not diminish the distinct qualities and talents we each have, but it makes it more prominent.
Thank you for reading! God bless!
Thief
Rogue Theologian
your question would have to include.....
was calling Judas to follow......a mistake?
and argument with the Pharisees would have no consequence?
and His trial and execution was His plan from the beginning of His ministry?
did He ever sneeze?
and if ever he would say.....I go over there to pray
Leave Me alone
what was He really doing?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
We’re dealing with two Jesuses here: the mythic Jesus, who is God Incarnate, who commands the weather, who drives out demons and does miracles, and the historic Jesus.
We know very little about the historic Jesus. We’re pretty certain a man named Jesus lived, was an itinerant rabbi who had followers, and who was crucified for insurrection. We have a collection of sayings that stand a better than fair chance of being authentic to him. That’s about it.
If you’re talking about the mythic Jesus, the myth is limited to what the stories and accounts say. IOW, the mythic Jesus is a literary character. So if the stories paint the mythic Jesus as perfect, then perfect the mythic Jesus is, because, in literature, the Narrator, or storyteller, is always right.
If you’re talking about the historic Jesus, he probably was not perfect. We will never know.