If there is the devil, why did God create him?

Tiberius, I have no problem whatsoever with atheists. There are several here on RF that I quite enjoy talking to and actually have a lot of respect for. Others, however, just seem to like to play word games. Find a word, pick it apart, turn it inside out and back again. Repeat ad nauseum and see if, by then, the person you're having a dialogue with is so frustrated that he's ready to scream. You get a few laughs out of the fact that the conversation goes round and round in circles, but never moves forward. And at the end, you proclaim yourself the winner, while the other person feels as if he's wasted a bunch of his time.

I've played these games long enough to be able to tell who's looking for answers, who's looking for a fight, and who's looking for an evening's entertainment at someone else's expense. I have better things to do than sit around talking about who's hot, who's cold, who's good and who's evil, and why the hell don't I have all the answers if I'm supposed to be a Christian. You don't want answers. Some people do. I'm off to find them.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I'm here for a resolution. One side says one thing, the other side says the other thing. The first side disagrees with the second, and then explains why they disagree. That's all I am doing here. of course the debate is going to go in circles when the challenges the second side presents aren't answered. people have told me that God is the truth, but I have never seen a satisfactory reason to accept that. I'll keep asking until I get a satisfactory answer. I'm sorry if that bothers you.

Show me an Abrahamic religion or any religious scripture that I can trust, then perhaps I would as you put it, I won't "find a word, pick it apart, turn it inside out and back again."

I believed that religion should be examined and questioned with critical eyes. I am certainly not going to accept it through blind faith alone. You may be satisfied with the answers that can be found in old books, but I need more than that. Don't get me wrong, the bible and other scriptures are interesting, but until someone answer my question, then I will keep questioning and roll it around a few time.

Katzpur said:

And at the end, you proclaim yourself the winner, while the other person feels as if he's wasted a bunch of his time.

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No winner.

Just more confusion, and then even more questions need to be asked. You must understand that the answers sometime is either unsatifactory or unanswerable.

gnostic said:

You must understand that the answers sometime is either unsatifactory or unanswerable.

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To you - not to others.

It may be that way to you, but not to Katz or to another.

One would think the word of God would be satisfactory for everyone...

I'm not going to stop debating that God can't see the future just because you don't think he can and I don't believe he exists.

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If thats what floats your boat, go for it. I don't like to play the Devil's advocate.

I am, in a way. They thump the Bible to show that it's true. I thump the Bible (and thump their arguments) to show that it's NOT true.

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I think you're too good at playing a sheep in wolf's clothing (and no, thats not backwards). You certianly had me fooled.

Tiberius said:

I don't see that this is a logical argument. After all, we can ask, "If nobody had ever committed insurance fraud before, how could it even be an option? How would anybody know about insurance fraud, to be able to choose it? You can't chose something you don't know exists."

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Which is something I find to be equally logical if you know that insurance companies are perfect, and you have always lived under the benevolent care of an insurance company, never needing to commit fraud because they're never cheating you or anything.

Genna said:

If there is the devil, why did God create him? I am not sure which religions believe in a personal devil but know that Islam and Christianity do. Also the bible says that God creates evil, why would he allow for such wickedness to present in this world if he loves mankind? Why not destroy this devil? Is he not powerful enough to rid the world of this devil on his own?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

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Why did God create the devil? The same reason He created Hitler, and Mother Theresa, the pope, Charles Manson, John F Kennedy...

Don't blame God for what a sentient being chooses to do with their existence.

We all have the same choice, some get angry for simply having choice instead of regimented and structured goodness.

Super Universe said:

Why did God create the devil? The same reason He created Hitler, and Mother Theresa, the pope, Charles Manson, John F Kennedy...

Don't blame God for what a sentient being chooses to do with their existence.

We all have the same choice, some get angry for simply having choice instead of regimented and structured goodness.

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Not to butt in or make assumptions, but do you believe God personally made any of those people you listed? God personally made Satan.

Super Universe said:

Why did God create the devil? The same reason He created Hitler, and Mother Theresa, the pope, Charles Manson, John F Kennedy...

Don't blame God for what a sentient being chooses to do with their existence.

We all have the same choice, some get angry for simply having choice instead of regimented and structured goodness.

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I am not sure if this has been asked before, but God obviously knew the devil was going to be the epitome of evil, so why did he create him? And doesn't the bible say somewhere that the devil is intrinsically evil? God consciously created the devil whilst knowing full well that he was going to pave a path of destrucion, why? seems odd..

Genna said:

If there is the devil, why did God create him? I am not sure which religions believe in a personal devil but know that Islam and Christianity do. Also the bible says that God creates evil, why would he allow for such wickedness to present in this world if he loves mankind? Why not destroy this devil? Is he not powerful enough to rid the world of this devil on his own?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

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Great questions. Certainly, my answers may not be accepted by all given that I am not particularly a Christian (at least most of the other Christians don't believe so). Nevertheless, if God created the living entity that is "Lucifer", and Lucifer is doomed to be forever condemned, then we have a real big problem. Why did a perfect, all-knowing God create a being he knew was to become forever corrupt? There is no answer that is reconcilable with God's nature. A perfect God simply doesn't do such a thing. So either, God didn't create Lucifer (both are eternal; although one is supreme and the other is subordinate) and therefore this alleviates God from creating a being that was doomed to evil, or Lucifer isn't doomed for all time absolute. In other words, perhaps the living entity that is Lucifer has the opportunity to be rectified. Although, this opportunity may not be taken for upwards of trillions of years, for example. Simply put, the idea that any living entity is doomed to spend eternity suffering in hell contradicts a loving God.

As far as God "creating evil" goes, we have to consider what exactly is "evil". And we also have to consider why this universe exists. Unfortunately, in depth knowledge regarding the existence of the universe is not given in the Bible. Christians generally reason that the universe was created because God was lonely or needed to be entertained. This is incorrect. God, by nature, is complete in Himself. He doesn't require anything created, nor does an eternal and infallible being take pleasure in anything created. That is beneath God. He has His eternal pleasure potency in which He enjoys eternally. So why does God create this universe? Obviously since He cannot be doing it for His own benefit (since He is the conclusion of "benefit"), therefore He creates with others in mind. Specifically, God creates to fulfill the desires of the conditioned souls. At some point in our inconceivable history, we desired that which constituted taking shelter of these temporal material forms. In doing so, we became forgetful of our eternal nature and eternal relationship with the eternal Supreme Lord. This constitutes what is "evil". Evil simply means being ignorant of God. Therefore, God created evil in the sense that he gives the conditioned souls the facility to fulfill their desires, even if those desires constitute a perversion of their nature (i.e. evil). This is the mercy of the Lord. He doesn't force us. Actually, force contradicts love, which is the goal. It is our eternal dharma (work or duty) to be engaged in loving devotional service unto the Lord. God wants us to realize this for ourselves and turn to Him. Therefore although the material universe is created, first of all, for the purpose of giving us facility for attempting to enjoy separately from God, the other reason it is created is to give us a chance at returning to our spiritual constitution. This is practically realized in the human form of life. That is why the human form is particularly a blessing. Other species generally cannot understand God, but simply seek to fulfill bodily needs.

It is true that we are all spiritual offspring of God, including Lucifer and his followers, but He does not control our destinies.

We have our free agencies and have had so from the beginning. Lucifer chose of his own accord to follow the path that landed him where he is as did his followers.

God did not create evil. When goodness and righteousness are defined it is a natural consequence of the laws of all creation that the opposites of those principles are also defined by default.

It is our ultimate goal to become like God and that means learning to be like Him. To do that we must act of our own accord and learn, grow and choose life eternal in the presence of God or some other path. Either way it must be of our own accord or the whole plan of salvation would be a grand exersize in futility. What would be the point of anything if God were the only one with the ability to think and choose for Himself?

I am quite sure it grieved our Heavenly Father to be forced to cast out Lucifer and his followers but it was their choice not God's. Mercy cannot rob justice and it was justice that Lucifer be shown the proverbial door into outer darkness.

Vandr

Evandr2 said:

God did not create evil.

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Not according to the Bible. Actually, everything that is created is "evil" (or constitutes evil) in comparison to that which is eternal.

Evandr2 said:

It is true that we are all spiritual offspring of God, including Lucifer and his followers, but He does not control our destinies.

We have our free agencies and have had so from the beginning. Lucifer chose of his own accord to follow the path that landed him where he is as did his followers.

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You're right. God doesn't force us to do anything. That minute independence is there. I say "minute" because although God isn't moving us around like chess pieces, we are still acting under controlled conditions. Though if God creates a being who will be doomed to endless suffering in hell, then there becomes a contradiction in the nature of God. God knew that this particular being would suffer endlessly in hell. Therefore by creating him, God reveals that He enjoys the perpetual suffering of others. Maybe you do not believe in endless suffering though. In that case, there is no contradiction.

Paraprakrti said:

Though if God creates a being who will be doomed to endless suffering in hell, then there becomes a contradiction in the nature of God. God knew that this particular being would suffer endlessly in hell. Therefore by creating him, God reveals that He enjoys the perpetual suffering of others.

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I'm confused as to why so many people think God created an evil being and called him Lucifer and get him up to suffer forever. What's so hard about believing that God created a "being" who was neither inately good or evil, but who consciously made some significantly "evil" choices, thereby shaping his own destiny?

Katzpur said:

I'm confused as to why so many people think God created an evil being and called him Lucifer and get him up to suffer forever. What's so hard about believing that God created a "being" who was neither inately good or evil, but who consciously made some significantly "evil" choices, thereby shaping his own destiny?

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Because an omniscient God knows this being's destiny before He created him. Therefore God is basically saying, "Here, I will create a reject; one who will suffer endlessly". Our level of choice is relative. God has absolute knowledge of all choices that have been made, are being made and will be made. Therefore, if God creates a being who He knows will make the choice to suffer endlessly in hell, then that is to say that God must desire the suffering of this individual. Otherwise, if God doesn't desire the suffering of others, then dwelling endlessly in hell cannot be an option.

Paraprakrti said:

Because an omniscient God knows this being's destiny before He created him. Therefore God is basically saying, "Here, I will create a reject; one who will suffer endlessly". Our level of choice is relative. God has absolute knowledge of all choices that have been made, are being made and will be made. Therefore, if God creates a being who He knows will make the choice to suffer endlessly in hell, then that is to say that God must desire the suffering of this individual. Otherwise, if God doesn't desire the suffering of others, then dwelling endlessly in hell cannot be an option.

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I see. Well, I understand his "omniscience" (for those who insist on using that particular word) a little differently than you do. I definitely don't think God gets any pleasure over anyone's suffering. But I do believe that where there is agency, there is accountability. Maybe that's where we differ.

Super Universe said:

The devil (Satan) is a created being (angels create angels) who worked for the universe and decided to follow Lucifer and rebel against a God that he never saw.

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Wait, since when do angels create more angels? I thought they couldn't reproduce? And in any event, wasn't Satan one of the first angels?

Real Sorceror said:

Wait, since when do angels create more angels? I thought they couldn't reproduce? And in any event, wasn't Satan one of the first angels?

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Since when do angels create angels? Since just after the creation of the universe.

Angels keep the universe working. There are likely trillions of them from end to end and through all of the dimensions. They follow the Creator Son's direction which is to abide by His Father's original intent for the universe which is free will for all.

The universe is much, much, larger than our scientists can now see and it is constantly expanding. It needs more workers.

Satan one of the first angels? Satan, Lucifer, Caligastia, and Beelzebub are not all the same being. They are all individual beings involved in the Lucifer led rebellion.

Lucifer is a being created by other powerful angels. He is of the early type when they were more powerful than those who came after. Lucifer did not know God, he did not meet Him in any way just as no being, angel or otherwise, meets God (Creator Son's excepted) until they have earned their way into heaven.

Lucifer was placed over the earth but he decided that it is not worth it to work for the universe to earn a place in heaven for a God he never knew so he began a rebellion. His first assistant, Satan followed him along with many other angels.

This rebellion lasted maybe a day (a day to them is equal to 1,000 earth years) before they were put into confinement by the direction of Christ. They were given the chance to repent, many angels did, but Lucifer and Satan refused. And so they will be judged by the high angels, The Ancients of Days.

They will be judged by their own kind and if found guilty of denial of deity, they will cease to exist.

Super Universe said:

Since when do angels create angels? Since just after the creation of the universe.

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How do they create eachother? Do they reproduce physically or is it some supernatural process? or both?

Angels keep the universe working. There are likely trillions of them from end to end and through all of the dimensions. They follow the Creator Son's direction which is to abide by His Father's original intent for the universe which is free will for all.

The universe is much, much, larger than our scientists can now see and it is constantly expanding. It needs more workers.

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Why would the universe need "workers"? The laws of physics and such that God created are what keeps everything running smoothly. The universe is a self oiled machine.

Satan one of the first angels? Satan, Lucifer, Caligastia, and Beelzebub are not all the same being. They are all individual beings involved in the Lucifer led rebellion.

Lucifer is a being created by other powerful angels. He is of the early type when they were more powerful than those who came after. Lucifer did not know God, he did not meet Him in any way just as no being, angel or otherwise, meets God (Creator Son's excepted) until they have earned their way into heaven.

Lucifer was placed over the earth but he decided that it is not worth it to work for the universe to earn a place in heaven for a God he never knew so he began a rebellion. His first assistant, Satan followed him along with many other angels.

This rebellion lasted maybe a day (a day to them is equal to 1,000 earth years) before they were put into confinement by the direction of Christ. They were given the chance to repent, many angels did, but Lucifer and Satan refused. And so they will be judged by the high angels, The Ancients of Days.

They will be judged by their own kind and if found guilty of denial of deity, they will cease to exist.

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Thanks, I've never really heard the full story.