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Why fire?

L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Epic Beard Man said:
"Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses – We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, God is ever Exalted in Might and Wise." (Quran 4:56)
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Sounds like this is people punishing their enemies. Not God punishing anyone. Any other verses or anything in the Bible?
 
Jumi

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Fire is chemical energy becoming light and heat energy. A fiery hell seems interesting process from that perspective.
 
W

we-live-now

Active Member
Epic Beard Man said:
in Christian and Islamic tradition, fire is symbolic as a form of punishment in the hereafter. In some interpretations sulfur is implied inChristian eschatology, but why fire? Why is the act of burning significant as a form of punishment?

Islam provides the most nightmarish imagery of hell. But why hot boiling water, or fire burning off the epidermis? I figure that in life people suffer simply from memory or from a loved one loss in an early death, but one thing that alludes me is why fire?

Surely one can suffer from being away from God, the source of ecstasy and happiness. I don’t see how fire can trump the sense of loss.
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True (eternal, non-physical side of) fire = life. IMHO it is the very essence of life. What would we be without the sun?
 
G

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
syo said:
God is fire. When we die our souls connect to God(fire). The souls that are in tune with God, merge to the fire(merge with God) and have eternal bliss. The souls that are selfish, evil etc. are annihilated by God/fire and simply cease to exist.
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I'm almost certain annihilationism is not accepted in Orthodoxy.
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
Maybe Orthodoxy is wrong. God says He will destroy the evil persons who refuse to obet Him.
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One scripture that many Christians know well, tells the story...

John 3:16...."For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."

Everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting death. "Destroyed" means an obliteration of life. The Bible does not teach about an immortal soul that survives the death of the body. The soul is mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4) When you are dead, you're actually dead. Death never meant living somewhere else in another form.

Jesus' mention of "Gehenna" for God's enemies is nothing more that saying that worthless humans will be eliminated from existence forever. Their bodies disposed of in the city's garbage dump like so much trash.

If we go back to Eden we find that God mentioned two possible outcomes for humans....obey and live....disobey and die. There was no other option.

Everlasting life is granted only to the righteous....so in order to torment wicked humans after death, God would have to grant them everlasting life.....why would he need to torment them? Isn't taking them out of existence enough? :shrug:
 
Altfish

Altfish

Veteran Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
The fire is not to punish but to destroy. God does not send people to be tortured forever. They are burned up like garbage because they refuse to follow God's way of life.
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Nice bloke this god, isn't he. Not much of a diplomat, I can understand why his followers also like Trump.
 
syo

syo

Well-Known Member
Musing Bassist said:
I'm almost certain annihilationism is not accepted in Orthodoxy.
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''annihilationism'' is it a formal -ism?

Anyway, Orthodox believe the wicked will be destroyed because they won't stand the fire of God. Only virtuous people can connect to the fire of God. The Orthodox believe the essence of God is divine Fire. God is Fire.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
and what if fire really is a spiritual item when used in the bible?

seems then.....we might need to be trained to use it

that old flaming sword trick.....if you know what i mean
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Epic Beard Man said:
"Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses – We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, God is ever Exalted in Might and Wise." (Quran 4:56)
Click to expand...
As a Christian, Jesus did that for us.
 
Truthseeker

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
syo said:
Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It doesn't say torment. Maybe Catholics and Muslims believe torment, ok with me.
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There is another simile besides fire:

8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

This shows hell is unmistakenly not annhilation. You're going to have to interpret that passage another way.
 
Truthseeker

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Sanzbir said:
I don't wholly understand the mechanism behind it yet, but the majority of the world's cultures seem to be of the opinion that suffering is somehow necessary for personal development. Which admittedly seems odd to me, since the end game of spirituality is in ending suffering. Alchemical traditions within Christian and Muslim societies called it the Nigredo, or "the black" in one of their three stages of development.

Why is suffering a necessary stage for personal development?? I don't fully know or understand yet, it's the current thing I'm studying, trying to understand why this idea of suffering as a necessary step has arisen cross-culturally.

But the question of the original post is why fire, specifically, yes?? Why not another form or cause of suffering, but why is the idea of fire used. Well, fire can symbolize transformation, hardships that cause the strengthening of a thing through purification. A symbol that can be seen again in the terminology of alchemical symbolism through the process of calcination or even just generally in a cross-cultural understanding that fire is a symbol of pain that can transform for the better, for example in the lyrics of this excellent Indian folk metal song. Only after enduring the tests of fire iron is forged.

So I'd say if you want to symbolize suffering in a sense where the suffering can help or transform rather than just being nothing but suffering, the symbol of fire works better than suffering through other means, such as cold or cutting or starvation or the like.
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Sanzbir said:
I don't wholly understand the mechanism behind it yet, but the majority of the world's cultures seem to be of the opinion that suffering is somehow necessary for personal development. Which admittedly seems odd to me, since the end game of spirituality is in ending suffering. Alchemical traditions within Christian and Muslim societies called it the Nigredo, or "the black" in one of their three stages of development.

Why is suffering a necessary stage for personal development?? I don't fully know or understand yet, it's the current thing I'm studying, trying to understand why this idea of suffering as a necessary step has arisen cross-culturally.

But the question of the original post is why fire, specifically, yes?? Why not another form or cause of suffering, but why is the idea of fire used. Well, fire can symbolize transformation, hardships that cause the strengthening of a thing through purification. A symbol that can be seen again in the terminology of alchemical symbolism through the process of calcination or even just generally in a cross-cultural understanding that fire is a symbol of pain that can transform for the better, for example in the lyrics of this excellent Indian folk metal song. Only after enduring the tests of fire iron is forged.

So I'd say if you want to symbolize suffering in a sense where the suffering can help or transform rather than just being nothing but suffering, the symbol of fire works better than suffering through other means, such as cold or cutting or starvation or the like.
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Suffering impels you towards spirituality
 
Truthseeker

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Sanzbir said:
Yes, that seems to be the case.

I'm trying to figure out why that is, though.
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It goes to show that the material world is unreliable, it causes suffering, so the person turns to spirituality to be happy.
 
syo

syo

Well-Known Member
Truthseeker9 said:
There is another simile besides fire:

8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

This shows hell is unmistakenly not annhilation. You're going to have to interpret that passage another way.
Click to expand...
So, what is darkness?
 
S

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
Truthseeker9 said:
It goes to show that the material world is unreliable, it causes suffering, so the person turns to spirituality to be happy.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I don't think it's the material world that causes suffering. Two people can feel the same pain, and yet one (who perhaps has never felt pain before) may suffer while another (who perhaps is used to such pain) may not. Hunger may cause suffering in one person but not another. Death may cause suffering in one person, but not another.

Therefore I don't think it's the material world that causes suffering, but individual responses to that physical world.

Though while I don't think the cause of suffering is as you say, you may be on to something... I think perhaps your statement would work if "material world" was replaced with something like "self"...
 
Milton Platt

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Epic Beard Man said:
in Christian and Islamic tradition, fire is symbolic as a form of punishment in the hereafter. In some interpretations sulfur is implied inChristian eschatology, but why fire? Why is the act of burning significant as a form of punishment?

Islam provides the most nightmarish imagery of hell. But why hot boiling water, or fire burning off the epidermis? I figure that in life people suffer simply from memory or from a loved one loss in an early death, but one thing that alludes me is why fire?

Surely one can suffer from being away from God, the source of ecstasy and happiness. I don’t see how fire can trump the sense of loss.
Click to expand...

Probably because ancient people who developed the stories knew that fire was painful, and it was a mysterious thing. It glowed, it radiated heat, it moved as if it was alive, and it consumed things.
 
G

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
syo said:
''annihilationism'' is it a formal -ism?

Anyway, Orthodox believe the wicked will be destroyed because they won't stand the fire of God. Only virtuous people can connect to the fire of God. The Orthodox believe the essence of God is divine Fire. God is Fire.
Click to expand...
Except that they don't. I've just went on numerous Orthodox sites and the overwhelming opinion is that hell is conscious and eternal. They differ to Catholics only in that the Orthodox reject the notion of hell as a distinct place.
 
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