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If there is the devil, why did God create him?

gnostic

The Lost One
The beginning of the Book of Job is the most obvious one, Genna. The 1st two chapters.

1 Chronicles 21:1-8 and Zechariah 3:1-2. But these two are clearly written in the time of Exile and return from Babylon. Any post-Exile works are clearly influenced by Zoroastrianism.

There is allusion to Satan as Lucifer in Isaiah 14, but I think this is only a metaphor for the fall of the king of Babylon. Of course, Christians will also linked Satan to the king of Babylon too.
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
Real Sorceror said:
As I've said before, the option of evil has always been available;
And, as I've said before, how? If nobody had committed evil before, how would evil be an option? How would anybody know about evil, to be able to choose it? You can't chose something you don't know exists.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
PetShopBoy88 said:
And, as I've said before, how? If nobody had committed evil before, how would evil be an option? How would anybody know about evil, to be able to choose it? You can't chose something you don't know exists.
Absolutely. I'm curious (and I hope this isn't too far off topic) whether you believe, in the context of your comment here, that Adam and Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit. As you know, they only came to know good and evil by eating it. And yet they disobeyed God. I guess what I'm asking is... do you see their disobedience as sinful or not?
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
Katzpur said:
Absolutely. I'm curious (and I hope this isn't too far off topic) whether you believe, in the context of your comment here, that Adam and Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit.
As Paul said, without the law, there is no sin. Sometimes I take the inverse as true, that with the law there is sin, and therefore Eve sinned when she went against God's Law (his commandment to not eat of the fruit).

At other times, I go sort of with this statement you make:

As you know, they only came to know good and evil by eating it.
If they didn't know evil, how was their choice a sin?

And yet they disobeyed God. I guess what I'm asking is... do you see their disobedience as sinful or not?
I guess what I'm saying is, I don't know. ;)
 

Genna

Member
Here is what I found on the internet,

original sin
n.
In Christian theology, the condition of sin that marks all humans as a result of Adam's first act of disobedience.

http://www.answers.com/topic/original-sin

So this belief of "original sin" is that Adam's disobedience was an act of sin. Sin is evil, as PetShopBoy88 said, how did Adam choose to do evil before he knew what evil was? Did not the tree give him understanding of good and evil?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Genna said:
So this belief of "original sin" is that Adam's disobedience was an act of sin. Sin is evil, as PetShopBoy88 said, how did Adam choose to do evil before he knew what evil was? Did not the tree give him understanding of good and evil?
I don't believe what Adam and Eve did was "evil." Let's say you have a three-year-old child and you tell him not to reach up and touch the hot stove because it will burn him. He's curious so, despite your warning, he reaches up, touches the stove and is burned. Was he "evil" or even "bad" for disobeying? Not in my opinion. The worst that could be said of him was that he was "disobedient." Now, let's say that same kid is 16 and you tell him he is not allowed to take the car without permission. Well, when nobody's looking, he finds the extra set of car keys and takes the car anyway. "Evil" might still be too strong a word to use to describe his actions, but "bad" would probably be a pretty good fit. By the time he's old enough to drive, he is old enough to know that disobedience is wrong. Before he is able to distinguish good from evil, disobedience doesn't fit into either category.
 

Genna

Member
Yes, but don't you think it is different in Adam's case since God Himself specifically told him not to eat of the tree? And is not God's standard perfection? I mean, don't you think Adam knew it was wrong not to eat of the tree when God Himself told him not to? With children, unlike adults, they don't know any better.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Genna said:
Yes, but don't you think it is different in Adam's case since God Himself specifically told him not to eat of the tree?
No. I believe he knew he was being disobedient, but I don't believe he fully understood that disobedience to God was sinful.
 

Real Sorceror

Pirate Hunter
PetShopBoy88 said:
And, as I've said before, how? If nobody had committed evil before, how would evil be an option? How would anybody know about evil, to be able to choose it? You can't chose something you don't know exists.
Right. Satan chose to be selfish and pridefull. He was thinking in terms of "right" and "wrong". He wanted to further his own goals and self-interests. At no point was he thinking about evil.
 

Tagra

New Member
Real Sorceror said:
God* values choice and free-will. He does not like to control anyone's thoughts or actions. Evil is a side affect of free-will. God does not directly create evil, but He also does not limit our choices. If there is a Satan, I don't believe that God intended for him to be evil. Thats just how things turned out.

*not the Biblical God

I agree with you here, (exept for the 'not the Biblical God' part) . Satan started out as an Angel, and he decided to rebel.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
nutshell said:
Then that person's knowledge of hot and cold will be limited to their own experience. There will be certain ends of the spectrum they will not know. Further, their knowledge of hot/cold will be relative. I just moved and everyone around me thinks it's warm, but I think it's hot.

So how can we compare on to the other when they are subjective in the first place? Anyway, this is getting off topic....

He was created with the same potential as all of us - to be like God. He progressed and learned God's plan and choose not to follow it. I don't know if he was created good, but he choose evil. I don't believe we were necessarily created good or evil. In fact, I don't believe God created us from nothing. We already existed as "intelligences" and, IMO, already had some characteristics that set us apart from each other. God organized those intelligences into spirits and began teaching us.

I'm still confused. Did Satan not know that he could never win against God? Or did he know that he could never win and yet still chose to do it anyway?

Eden was a paradise in that there was no death...but there was also no learning. Our goal is to become like God, but how could we do that without progression. Adam and Ever were "punished" because they did something they were told not to do by God. However, they were also told to have children, and we believe they could not do that until after they ate from the tree. You see, God set up contradicting commandments knowing that, eventually, they would break one or the other. It was his "switch" to get His plan in motion. And just because Adam and Eve were punished does not mean they will forever be separated from God. They repented and found grace with God.

And pray tell, how could we progress without learning? And were we meant to exist stagnantly? And God set up the whole fall thing? He set it up - in fact created the Earth to depend on this happening - , and then WE were punished? How is this fair? Why should we worship a god who creates a world that relies on such things, and then punishes us for doing exactly what he intended!

Perhaps God is waiting for all the Spirits he organized to come down and receive a body. Perhaps he's waiting for you...who knows.

perhaps he's waiting for the king of the Potato People to do a dance around a bent mushroom on Midsummer's eve under the full moon. make up any excuse you want, it all still boils down to, "I don't have a clue, but I'm right anyway." I don't buy it for a second.

Well, the scriptures themselves say it is not for man to know the mysteries of God. How do you expect us to argue against our own canon?

Ah, you now claim that "I don't have a clue, but I'm right anyway" is a good excuse because the Bible tells us? of course it would say that, it's the best way to cover itself. But it's no more legit than saying, "I swear I'm telling you the truth."

God has punished Satan. Satan will never receive a physical body and his progression has ended. All of us, by being on earth, surpass Satan in power and progression. What more punishment do you want? He will be shoved away in a quiet corner eventually, but while we live in an imperfect world, he is free to reign.

So now, not only is God able to defeat Satan but hasn't, now all humans are able to defeat Satan and we haven't? And you confuse the issue more. We can defeat Satan, except we can't because we live in an imperfect world? You are saying one thing and then immediately contradicting yourself.

The death of the OT was under a different law than we have today. Part of the His plan is having perfect Justice and perfect Mercy. The OT was under the law of Justice and the NT ushered in the law of Mercy. And, as stated, Satan has already been punished and will be punished further. I expect his fate is worse than death.

Jesus himself said that he did not come to overturn the laws of the Old testament.

Those names are written as we do good or do evil. They may not already be determined and in the book. Besides, I expect God knows exactly how things will turn out.

A God who knows the future raises a lot of problems. namely, how can we have free will if God knows what we are going to do (which I will cover later in this post), and it also means the Earth can't be a test, because God would already know the answer.

See my comments on Justice and Mercy above. As well as my belief Satan has been punished and will be punished again.

God's whipping boy, huh?

The test isn't for God's benefit ---- It's for us (are you passing?). He does know the outcome, IMO. Can you explain what you mean by "And at what point did you go from many devils to one devil?" God requires worship for our own benefit, not his (something about this thing called humility). No, he wasn't lonely.

Firstly, the many devils to one devil comment was towards Peace4all, when he was telling his story about how Satan became Satan. he said, "And god knew this. so when god decided to create humans and asks the spirits to bow down to Adam they were outraged. To them it was an insult to having to bow down to such an inferior creature. Those spirits that did not bow to Adam soon were called satans." He clearly makes reference to many Satans, yret a little while later he is referring to only one. I was asking how the many became one. Did all the others die, or did they merge into one being or what?

Why is the test for our benefit? What do we get from it? Isn't it like saying, "I'm going to do a test that involves a hammer and gravity. I know that when I drop the hammer gravity will make it fall, but the test isn't for me, it's for the hammer."

Real Sorceror said:
You're assuming I believe in any of that.

Again, I can't limit my debate to your beliefs.

No. You chose to cross the street. It was your decision. I simply knew about it ahead of time. Just becuase I know something does not mean I am controlling you.

Okay, I honestly can't understand how you don't see the conflict here.

So let me try to simplify it.

Let's say there are two actions which I can perform. I can only do one of these action; it's impossible for me to do them both at the same time. For example, let's say these two actions are:

  1. perform brain surgery
  2. Fly a hangglider in the thermals over the mountains.

Obviously, I can only do one of these actions at a particular point in time. if I perform brain surgery, I can't also be hanggliding.

But we can represent it as any two actions, which I'll refer to as X and Y, when X and Y are mutually incompatible. If I do X, I can't also be doing Y. if I do Y, I can't also be doing X.

So, the question I am asking is this.....

If God has foreseen that I am going to be doing X at a particular time, am I capable of choosing to do Y instead at that same particular moment in time? it's a simple yes or no question as far as I am concerned.

if God has forseen that I will be performing brain surgery at noon tomorrow, then he must be right, and I must perform brain surgery. but in that case, how am I able to choose to go hanggliding? Simple answer is - I can't, not without causing God's foreknowledge to be wrong. This is impossible, as God (being God) is never wrong.

This is not based on my "interpretation". This is based on scientific evidence. The flood never happened. But as I said before, this for another thread.

And according to the interpretation of biblical literalists, it did happen. As I said, I will not confine my debate to your interpretation, even if it is one I share, and even if it is backed up by evidence. I am here to debate the interpretation of anyone who wants to have a debate with me. In a friendly manner, of course.

And I must disagree. Destroying everything on the planet is an act of extreme immorality and evil. God is incapable of evil.

I agree that it is a terrible act, and that it didn't happen, at least not as presented in the Bible (there is evidence of a large flood in that area, but it wasn't a worldwide flood.

However, I will debate the point with anyone who has a different interpretation.

My point was saying that according to a literal interpretation of the Noah's Flood part of the Bible God is willing to use widespread death as a punishment. Even though you may disagree with that interpretation, I am still allowed to debate that interpretation in regards to people who do take that story literally. As I said before, I will not confine my debate to your interpretation of things.

PetShopBoy88 said:
And, as I've said before, how? If nobody had committed evil before, how would evil be an option? How would anybody know about evil, to be able to choose it? You can't chose something you don't know exists.

I don't see that this is a logical argument. After all, we can ask, "If nobody had ever committed insurance fraud before, how could it even be an option? How would anybody know about insurance fraud, to be able to choose it? You can't chose something you don't know exists."
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Tiberius, I'll respond to you tomorrow. It seems, however, that you are simply choosing to read past my words rather than attempting to grasp there meaning. I'll do my best tomorrow, but I hope we can avoid references to dancing potatos.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Don't assume I am unable to grasp your meaning just becasue I disagree. I know exactly what you mean, I just see your arguments as flawed and I am attempting to point out those flaws.

In any case, were I to actually see dancing potatoes, I wouldn't be on here. I'd be on TV with them, making a fortune.
 

Real Sorceror

Pirate Hunter
Religion: Athiest all the way.
*totally blanking speechless*
Wait.....are you trying to pull a fast one on me?
Okay, I honestly can't understand how you don't see the conflict here.
Look, I don't believe that God can see the future.
You don't believe that God even exists. So what are we talking about?
And according to the interpretation of biblical literalists, it did happen. As I said, I will not confine my debate to your interpretation, even if it is one I share, and even if it is backed up by evidence. I am here to debate the interpretation of anyone who wants to have a debate with me. In a friendly manner, of course.
I don't mean to cut this short, but you completely blindsided me with the whole athiest thing. I had assumed I was talking to a Bible thumper.

ps. that last quote at the bottom of your post is not mine, it belongs to PetShopBoy88
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Tiberius said:
What if you were one of those people born and raised in a desert? What about the aboriginal people who live in the middle of australia? They don't exactly get cold there. Are they unable to recognise heat?
About a year ago, right after Katrina, about 600 refugees were brought here to Salt Lake City. At the time they arrived, daytime temperatures were probably in the mid- to upper-80s. Nighttime lows would have been in the low- to mid-60's. The extremely low humidity here makes all the difference in the world, though, and a lot of these people said that, while they couldn't have been happier with how they were treated here in Utah, they could hardly stand the cold. This is the point I'm trying to get across. If I haven't done it by now, I'm unlikely to be able to do so in another three or four attempts. (Consider this to be my last one.)

You said, "I believe in a devil (Satan). I don't believe God created him evil, but that he chose to be evil." If Satan wasn't created evil, doesn't that mean he was good?
I believe He was good until he made the decision he did to openly rebel against God and to try to exalt himself. I believe he was actually one of God's most beloved spirit sons.

And wasn't he created as an angel? And aren't Angels meant to be holy, being messengers from God and all?
To begin with, my interpretation of the word "angel" is different from yours in many respects. I believe that angels are exactly the same species as mortals; they are simply in a non-mortal stage of existence. Revelation explains that "...the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." In other words, there is nothing inherently "holy" about angels.

Well, you seemed to be saying, "Satan isn't evil, he's just not Good." I'm sorry, but I really don't fancy searching through 8 pages looking for the exact quote.
Really? Well, neither do I. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. I never said Satan is not evil. He is the epitome of evil, in my opinion. This is because he knowingly chose a path that forever distanced him from God and now seeks to tempt us to do the same.

So why was Eden created as a paradise with no suffering or evil? And why were Adam and Eve PUNISHED for eating from the tree if that's what God had planned all along?
They were punished because they disobeyed. God had given them a commandment and had told them what the consequences for disobediece would be. Agency and accountability are two fundamental principles that go hand-in-hand. It's as simple as that.

I don't actually see the punishment as being in any way unjust, and I believe it was necessary for them to be cast out of the Garden in order to begin to learn, grow and progress. It was a punishment, but not one without ultimate benefits.

Which leads to the question, why isn't it over yet. What's God waiting for?
There are spirits still in God's presence, waiting to come to earth to experience mortality. (This is a uniquely LDS doctrine. Don't expect to find it referred to, except very indirectly, in the Bible.)

Again with the "We can't understand God's plan" which is pulled out whenever there's a question about God which can't be answered.
Oh, I understand His Plan, Tiberius. I never said I didn't understand His Plan. I just don't know His timetable.

yes, dealing with punishments for doing things wrong. America executes some criminals. God executed most stuff in the Flood. This was directed at the claim that death is not a good punishment, because the punishment requires awareness. I was merely pointing out how that logic is flawed because death is being used as a punishment today, and God's done it himself, so we can't suddenly change the rules when it comes to making excuses for God not punishing Satan by saying, "God doesn't kill Satan because punishments require awareness of the punishment."
God has punished different people in different ways throughout history. Death is not the only possible punishment. Ultimately, Satan's punishment will be far worse than anything any of us can imagine.

Oh, sorry, i thought you were claiming that Death wasn't a good punishment, even though God has found it fit to use death as a punishment before. Didn't you say, "How is [death] punishment? Doesn't there need to be awareness in order for punishment to be effective?" Apparently God doesn't think so. he has used death as a punishment before!!!!! And if it's good enough for God, it should be good enough for you!
I'm going to have to get back to you on this one after I read a few posts again. I don't recall making the statement you attributed to me.
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
It takes both heat and pressure to turn a lump of coal into a diamond.

In this way, God uses 'Satan', to condition our spirit to be something greater than it was before.


Aside from that, the story of Satan was mis translated, and suggests that God was having trouble controlling his kingdom. To suggest that God has trouble controlling his kingdom is blasphemous.
 

may

Well-Known Member
Genna said:
If there is the devil, why did God create him? I am not sure which religions believe in a personal devil but know that Islam and Christianity do. Also the bible says that God creates evil, why would he allow for such wickedness to present in this world if he loves mankind? Why not destroy this devil? Is he not powerful enough to rid the world of this devil on his own?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things isaiah 45;7
Remember that this prophecy of Isaiah was recorded some 200 years before the event. Upon hearing it some may have wondered, ‘Does Jehovah truly have the power to fulfill it?’ As history testifies, the answer is yes. Jehovah explains why it is reasonable to believe that he can accomplish what he says: "Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) Everything in creation—from light to darkness—and everything in history—from peace to calamity—is subject to Jehovah’s control. Just as he creates the light of day and the darkness of night, so he will make peace for Israel and calamity for Babylon. Jehovah has the power to create the universe, and he also has the power to fulfill his prophecies. That is reassuring to Christians today, who closely study his prophetic word.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Real Sorceror said:
*totally blanking speechless*
Wait.....are you trying to pull a fast one on me?

Not at all.

Look, I don't believe that God can see the future.
You don't believe that God even exists. So what are we talking about?

I'm not going to stop debating that God can't see the future just because you don't think he can and I don't believe he exists.

Sorry, but you threw me for a loop when you said, "No. You chose to cross the street. It was your decision. I simply knew about it ahead of time. Just becuase I know something does not mean I am controlling you." I was assuming you meant that as a way opf explaining how God could know ahead of time what would happen.

I don't mean to cut this short, but you completely blindsided me with the whole athiest thing. I had assumed I was talking to a Bible thumper.

I am, in a way. They thump the Bible to show that it's true. I thump the Bible (and thump their arguments) to show that it's NOT true. :p

ps. that last quote at the bottom of your post is not mine, it belongs to PetShopBoy88

Fixed. :)

Katz said:
About a year ago, right after Katrina, about 600 refugees were brought here to Salt Lake City. At the time they arrived, daytime temperatures were probably in the mid- to upper-80s. Nighttime lows would have been in the low- to mid-60's. The extremely low humidity here makes all the difference in the world, though, and a lot of these people said that, while they couldn't have been happier with how they were treated here in Utah, they could hardly stand the cold. This is the point I'm trying to get across. If I haven't done it by now, I'm unlikely to be able to do so in another three or four attempts. (Consider this to be my last one.)

Wow, your one single example has prived to me that there aren't any places in the world that don't experience cold! Even in the humid tropical rainforests of Northern Australia, people still regularly shiver and require thick woolen coats.

There are places in the world where the temperature remains warm all the time. A person who has lived their whole lives in a place like this will not have the concept of cold.

I believe He was good until he made the decision he did to openly rebel against God and to try to exalt himself. I believe he was actually one of God's most beloved spirit sons.

if he was made good, then why was he able to do something bad? Couldn't been that good after all, huh?

To begin with, my interpretation of the word "angel" is different from yours in many respects. I believe that angels are exactly the same species as mortals; they are simply in a non-mortal stage of existence. Revelation explains that "...the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." In other words, there is nothing inherently "holy" about angels.

A mortal in a non mortal stage? :areyoucra Do you have anything at all to support this claim? (hates self for asking)

And let me clarify then. GOD'S angels were holy?

Really? Well, neither do I. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. I never said Satan is not evil. He is the epitome of evil, in my opinion. This is because he knowingly chose a path that forever distanced him from God and now seeks to tempt us to do the same.

Really? Can't we do that ourselves?

They were punished because they disobeyed. God had given them a commandment and had told them what the consequences for disobediece would be. Agency and accountability are two fundamental principles that go hand-in-hand. It's as simple as that.

So let me get this straight....

God plans for us to do something he doesn't want us to do. He DOESN'T want us to do it, yet it is VITAL for his plan that we do it anyway? And he makes sure that we DO this thing that he DOESN'T want us to do?

And then when we DO this thing that he PLANNED for us to do, he punishes us?

God punishes US for doing exactly what he PLANNED for us?

What a *******!

I don't actually see the punishment as being in any way unjust, and I believe it was necessary for them to be cast out of the Garden in order to begin to learn, grow and progress. It was a punishment, but not one without ultimate benefits.

And you don't see it as unfair?

And was God really unable to allow us to learn, grow and progress in any other way?

There are spirits still in God's presence, waiting to come to earth to experience mortality. (This is a uniquely LDS doctrine. Don't expect to find it referred to, except very indirectly, in the Bible.)

Right, this is easily fixed.

God send those souls down to earth, so they get to experience mortality. Then all is good, he doesn't have to wait for anything, and he can then procede to wipe the floor with Satan's sorry arse.

Should be easy enough for God - remember, he can do anything.

Oh, I understand His Plan, Tiberius. I never said I didn't understand His Plan. I just don't know His timetable.

Sorry, I thought that his timetable would be a part of that plan. How stupid of me.

And if you understand his plan, what's god's plan for me? (let me guess - if you choose to respond to this, it will be something vague and could apply to just about anyone.)

God has punished different people in different ways throughout history. Death is not the only possible punishment. Ultimately, Satan's punishment will be far worse than anything any of us can imagine.

So what? You still can't argue that God has KILLED people for a lot less than what Satan has done. he killed Lot's Wife just because she wanted one last look at her home!

I'm going to have to get back to you on this one after I read a few posts again. I don't recall making the statement you attributed to me.

Post 51 of this thread, at the very top of Page 6. I would link to the actual post, but I don't know how to get the address of a single post.
 
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