Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

Kelly of the Phoenix · Jul 26, 2018

Danny1988 said:
I don't believe how deceived the 1.6 billion Muslims are, to say that Islam is a religion of peace. Just look at the history of the Muslim nations, they have always been soaked in blood. They have been at war with each other and the Christian world.

The fact they can be at war with the Christian world means the Christians were warring too, though.

Danny1988 said:
ISIS claim to be proper Muslims

And the KKK say they are Christians.

Danny1988 said:
you couldn't use the Bible to justify killing anybody unless it is in self defense.

Sure you can. Hebrews wanted to take land from people who actually lived there. When there was resistance, like many people today, they scream "self-defense" and kill them all.

Danny1988 said:
Jesus taught us to love our enemy

He assaulted people. With more than fists. He encouraged the bringing of swords. He desired to split up families and entire populations. He felt people who didn't follow him should burn in hell and you tend to get there by dying.

Jesus is real bad about tailoring his whining to his audience:

With the poor: Woe to the rich!
With the rich: I need a place to stay.

With Jews: Jews are much better than any other people. Screw those other people. They are dogs.
With gentiles: Hey, we should all get along.

Epic Beard Man said:
How do Baha'i's reconcile with the fact that Muhammad stated that6 he is the final prophet and messenger of God and that none will come after him considering that you may consider him a messenger of God?

The same way Muslims acted when Jesus said similar things?

Danny1988 said:
I did say that Christians are only allowed to kill in self defense, so all the above mentioned countries and cities such as Sodom and Gomorrah are actually at war with Gods people so war against them is justified.

Gomorrah never participates in the story. Why kill them off if all the drama is happening in Sodom?

Danny1988 said:
it will be the biggest and final battle in human history

Until the next one.

Danny1988 said:
Christ never taught anyone to conquer the world by the sword, to do that is to kill people and steal their possessions. He taught conquest by sharing the Gospel, so people would be saved from their sins.

Luke 22
36And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'and he was numbered with transgressors'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." 38They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

Matthew 10
34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Revelation 19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

I mean, Revelation is just one big "and I'm about to kill EVERYONE" kind of story.

Danny1988 said:
Time is running short, He could return at any moment so we should all prepare to meet Him by repenting and believing in Him for the forgiveness of our sins so we can inherit eternal life in paradise.

Why should we fear Jesus if he is nonviolent?

Jesus likens himself to a thief in the night. Thieves are bad guys, not good guys.

Danny1988 said:
You can't use the teaching of Christ to declare war or use violence against anyone, unless they are literally attacking you.

Sure you can. You just call the cops on black kids selling water and start crying to the cops that you were being attacked.

Remember: you don't HAVE to be attacked, only convinced that you are.

adrian009 said:
To argue that Christians have never used the bible to justify violence is indefensible.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...to-jesus-tomb-site-in-jerusalem-idUSKBN1DU17Q

Christians can't even handle their own stuff so that Muslims have to be in charge of some things.

AntonyBS said:
I know of no teaching of Jesus the Christ about war.

Take the rose-colored glasses off before reading.

Danny1988 said:
The Prince of peace, must destroy the enemies of peace (unbelievers = enemies of peace) to bring about lasting peace.

Sailor Moon can restore enemies to goodness. Maybe she should consult with Jesus.

Danny1988 said:
There are many Christian Churches, All those who believe and preach that the Holy Bible is the final authority in all matters are Christian churches.

I consider that attitude blasphemous and idolatrous. It makes a book the deity, not the deity.

Danny1988 said:
Only those who have the gift of the Holy Spirit are able to.

Who do you think told me you were wrong?

Danny1988 said:
He is the only One who proved that He was God.

How? Name one thing he did someone else didn't do or did better.

Jesus: Walks on water briefly.
Moses: Splits a sea with a stick.
Jesus: Resurrects a guy and wakes up a comatose girl.
Lots of others in the bible alone: Can do the same thing.
Jesus: Says the tiniest faith can move mountains. Can't move a mountain.
Krishna: Wields a mountain like an umbrella before puberty even hit.
Jesus: Makes some magic wine for a party.
Elijah and Elisha: FAR more useful if you're hungry.
Jesus: Comes back to life.
Everyone who ever did so: Same.
Jesus: Claims to be righteous.
Lots of biblical people: Same.
Jesus: Claims to be killed while innocent.
Soooooo many people: LOL.

Danny1988 said:
He didn't come and suffer untold pain for you to look to false prophets and judge Him by their actions.

You're right. I should judge him by his own, for as we judge are we judged. He said people who call others fools will burn in hell. He called people fools. Jesus isn't coming back because he's getting a really long tanning session.

Danny1988 said:
Christ has made it possible for you to have a relationship with Him, all you need to do is turn from your sin, repent and believe in Him.

Or I could treat Him like an adult and not a whiny child.

Danny1988 said:
Judaism, has been superseded by Christianity.

And Islam superseded Christianity. And Bahaii superseded Islam. And other religions superceded that one. It's like there's a new kid in town every week.

oldbadger · Jul 26, 2018

Danny1988 said:
Christ and Paul and Paul preached the same message, so you need to go back and educate yourself.

I'm not sure where you get your information about the history of the RCC, but I would suggest you broaden your search to include independent sources and stop swallowing RCC propaganda.

Paul never stood for what Jesus wanted, so your telling me to get educated is ironic.

And since I live in Protestant England I can assure you that Catholics and Protestants were being burned at the same time in Differing English cities.

I only asked a question, bit didn't seem to get a very Christian answer imo

siti · Jul 26, 2018

Danny1988 said:
You can't just pluck verses out of their intended context and abuse them to propagate you agenda.

Yes I can - I just did.

Danny1988 said:
It's painfully obvious that Jesus taught that it was OK to defend yourself from evil and wicked men.

What is painfully obvious is that you are unable to pluck any verses (in or out of context) to support this argument. Where did Jesus teach this.

TransmutingSoul · Jul 26, 2018

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
Take the rose-colored glasses off before reading.

I prefer those glasses, they lead to peace.

Jesus the Christ came for peace, rejection results in the sword.

This is the promised day of God, when the reign of the sword will cease. It will go out with a big bang, peace will result.

Peace be upon you and all.

Prestor John · Jul 26, 2018

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
The fact they can be at war with the Christian world means the Christians were warring too, though.

And the KKK say they are Christians.

Sure you can. Hebrews wanted to take land from people who actually lived there. When there was resistance, like many people today, they scream "self-defense" and kill them all.

He assaulted people. With more than fists. He encouraged the bringing of swords. He desired to split up families and entire populations. He felt people who didn't follow him should burn in hell and you tend to get there by dying.

Jesus is real bad about tailoring his whining to his audience:

With the poor: Woe to the rich!
With the rich: I need a place to stay.

With Jews: Jews are much better than any other people. Screw those other people. They are dogs.
With gentiles: Hey, we should all get along.

The same way Muslims acted when Jesus said similar things?

Gomorrah never participates in the story. Why kill them off if all the drama is happening in Sodom?

Until the next one.

Luke 22
36And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'and he was numbered with transgressors'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." 38They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

Matthew 10
34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Revelation 19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

I mean, Revelation is just one big "and I'm about to kill EVERYONE" kind of story.

Why should we fear Jesus if he is nonviolent?

Jesus likens himself to a thief in the night. Thieves are bad guys, not good guys.

Sure you can. You just call the cops on black kids selling water and start crying to the cops that you were being attacked.

Remember: you don't HAVE to be attacked, only convinced that you are.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...to-jesus-tomb-site-in-jerusalem-idUSKBN1DU17Q

Christians can't even handle their own stuff so that Muslims have to be in charge of some things.

Take the rose-colored glasses off before reading.

Sailor Moon can restore enemies to goodness. Maybe she should consult with Jesus.

I consider that attitude blasphemous and idolatrous. It makes a book the deity, not the deity.

Who do you think told me you were wrong?

How? Name one thing he did someone else didn't do or did better.

Jesus: Walks on water briefly.
Moses: Splits a sea with a stick.
Jesus: Resurrects a guy and wakes up a comatose girl.
Lots of others in the bible alone: Can do the same thing.
Jesus: Says the tiniest faith can move mountains. Can't move a mountain.
Krishna: Wields a mountain like an umbrella before puberty even hit.
Jesus: Makes some magic wine for a party.
Elijah and Elisha: FAR more useful if you're hungry.
Jesus: Comes back to life.
Everyone who ever did so: Same.
Jesus: Claims to be righteous.
Lots of biblical people: Same.
Jesus: Claims to be killed while innocent.
Soooooo many people: LOL.

You're right. I should judge him by his own, for as we judge are we judged. He said people who call others fools will burn in hell. He called people fools. Jesus isn't coming back because he's getting a really long tanning session.

Or I could treat Him like an adult and not a whiny child.

And Islam superseded Christianity. And Bahaii superseded Islam. And other religions superceded that one. It's like there's a new kid in town every week.

You just love showing off how belligerent you are.

CG Didymus · Jul 26, 2018

Danny1988 said:
You can't just pluck verses out of their intended context and abuse them to propagate you agenda.

It's painfully obvious that Jesus taught that it was OK to defend yourself from evil and wicked men. We don't lie down and wait to be slaughtered by the enemy, so of' course we must take up our weapons ad fight.

Are Christians that are pacifists the ones that are wrong? In the early years of Christianity, should the Christians have fought rather than be martyred?

Then about Catholics... prior to the Protestant Reformation, who was "saved"? All Catholics had false beliefs and false practices dealings with salvation, so none of them? Jews too, they had wrong beliefs and practices, so none of them? So who was saved? The very few that read the Bible on their own and rejected the Catholic Church? But then, what about Protestants that say they believe but don't obey Christ's commandments? Are they truly saved? And then, who truly obeys all of Christ's commandments, like turn the other cheek and don't lust in your heart. Oh, and if a Christian does lust, should they pluck their eye out? Or, should we not take Jesus too literally sometimes?

siti · Jul 26, 2018

adrian009 said:
You can complain about the gaps and accuracy ad nauseam but they have proved incredibly effective as a focal point for their followers.

Yes - especially the bits where people's heads were chopped off.

adrian009 said:
Good to know you acknowledge their existence so the question becomes who were they? I’m not intending to be difficult.

But that IS the question and it IS a very difficult one. We have almost zero reliable information about the actual lives and characters of either of them. What we have are the idealized accounts emerging from the religious traditions of those who venerated them. And very similar accounts could be given about Sun Myung Moon or Sai Baba - but we take such accounts with a large pinch of salt because we have other information - For Jesus and Muhammad we really don't have any other information aside from a few independent historical references that mention them but give no details. Yes we know they existed - but who they really were is almost completely unknown...and...

adrian009 said:
It’s hugely important for many of us who are comfortable with our Christian backgrounds to know when we embark on our study of Muhammad that the sources of verifiable information are at least as good if not better than Christianity. It has everything to do with the topic at hand because for many of us, Christ, Moses and the OT prophets are our point of reference for considering who is a Messenger of God and who is not. If you don’t sincerely believe that any of the biblical figures were Messengers of God, then of course you won’t see Muhammad as one either.

...of course the lack of reliable information is even more pronounced in the case of the OT prophets - we have no idea about any of them outside of religious tradition and it certainly seems like even more ancient tales of even more ancient sages and prophets and warriors were conflated with accounts of Moses, David etc...you need only read the Bible itself to figure that out - almost identical narratives but for two different central figures - there are a number of instances of this in the OT. We have no idea who Moses was and it is highly unlikely that any one person even closely resembling the person supposedly described in the OT ever actually existed.

adrian009 said:
The authenticity of the Quran as opposed to a criticism of what it teaches looks solid to me.

It looks solid because you have been convinced that standardized text has survived - but there is no way of proving that the standardized text really was an accurate record of Muhammad's sayings - and what little evidence we do have from the very earliest decades of the Islamic period seem to suggest that there was a fair bit of interpretation going on in the early years. I'm not saying the Qur'an is not authentic - we can't tell for sure one way or the other - but there is reasonable cause for doubt and healthy skepticism. And there is no sound reason at all to make the unfounded assumption that the Qur'an is God's message to humankind.

adrian009 said:
Your being negative and dismissive again.

You are very perceptive.

adrian009 said:
I suspect that a significant number of the men of the Banu Qurayza tribe were killed, but beyond that I would be wildly speculating as opposed to just speculating. The affect of this action was to send a clear and stern Message to other Arabian tribes to follow both the spirit and law of any pact made with the Muslims. It was a crucial reason why the tribes became united.

Which kind of brings us back to my argument that "there is no question that violence and subjugation were at the root of the spread of Islam" - don't you think?

CG Didymus · Jul 26, 2018

AntonyBS said:
Hello thank you for the question. Google is a friend for me.

I do not see Adam listed, but the way I see it explained is that all Gods Messnegers are the same Holy Spirit.

Thus I see it that a Person is born of that Holy Spirit in each age God gives a Message. That Holy Spirit is the Christ in Jesus, thus Christ, the First and Last.

This is the same Holy Spirit in Muhammad.

Peace be upon you.

Here is a list from a site claiming to be Baha'i:
Those following immediately do have confirmation of being Manifestations of God as far as I could find:

Baha'u'llah
The Bab
Muhammad
Christ
Buddha
Zoroaster
Elijah (Elias)
Jonah (Jonas)
Jethro
Moses
Krishna
Joseph
Ishmael (not necessarily the son of Abraham--Ismael)
Lot (Lut)
Abraham (Ibráhím)
David (not King David)
Sálih
Húd
Noah
Founder of Sabaeanism; same as Seth and/or Idrís?)
Idrís (or Hermes, etc.; same as Enoch?)
Abel (indirect statements for)
Adam

Are they wrong to include Adam? Are they wrong to include a lot of those people?
Here's what I found for a definition of a "Manifestation of God"

The Manifestation of God is a concept in the Bahá'í Faith that refers to what are commonly called prophets. The Manifestations of God are appearances of the Divine Spirit or Holy Spirit in a series of personages, and as such, they perfectly reflect the attributes of the divine into the human world for the progress and advancement of human morals and civilization through the agency of that same Spirit. In the Baha'i Faith, it is believed that the Manifestations of God are the only channel for humanity to know about God because contact with the Spirit is what transforms the heart and mind, creating a living relationship between the soul and God. They act as perfect mirrors reflecting the attributes of God into the physical world. Bahá'í teachings hold that the motive force in all human development is due to the coming of the Manifestations of God. The Manifestations of God are directly linked with the Bahá'í concept of progressive revelation.

Does Muhammad fit this definition? Was he a "perfectly" polished mirror reflecting the "attributes" of the divine?

Dawnofhope · Jul 26, 2018

CG Didymus said:
Here is a list from a site claiming to be Baha'i:

That is a list from someone who says they are a Baha'i, not an authorised Baha'i website. Its simply someone's opinion.

CG Didymus said:
Are they wrong to include Adam? Are they wrong to include a lot of those people?

Adam. No

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_in_Islam

Some of the others...quite possibly

CG Didymus said:
Does Muhammad fit this definition? Was he a "perfectly" polished mirror reflecting the "attributes" of the divine?

Yes

CG Didymus · Jul 26, 2018

stvdv said:
22 jul 2018 stvdv 019 33 info
I try to explain why "My religion is better than Atheism" equals to "belittling" Atheism [Of course I know the Atheist won't feel belittled, being smart. But still it is "belittling"]

When you tell someone: "My religion is better than your religion" you imply to him "Your religion is less good than my religion", this is called "belittling".
When you tell someone: "My preference is Christian religion" then you imply NOTHING about HIS religion. Just your preference. No comparison. Hence no "belittling"

That was my guess also. That is why I kept it to 3 lines in my previous reply.

Good example. Because it will show exactly the same, but maybe you see it when using "sex" as example.

No that is so totally NOT my logic. Here you misunderstand me completely, meaning 180 degrees wrong.

You are hetero (as am I). So our preference is towards women. No problem so far. Now using your analogy:

So we have A: Preference "man/woman" +Preference "Jesus"
So we have B: Preference "man/man" +Preference "Jesus"
So we have C: Preference "man/woman" +Preference "Buddha"
So we have D: Preference "man/man" +Preference "Buddha"

How I would argue:
I choose option "C" today. So I say "I prefer as a man to have sex with a woman" + "I prefer as a man to pray to Buddha"

I do not think any further than this [no better than in my mind]:
In my mind does not exist the phrase "straight sex is better than gay sex" ==> do you think "straight sex is better than gay sex"
In my mind does not exist the phrase "gay sex is better than straight sex"

In my mind does not exist the phrase "Buddha is better than Jesus"
In my mind does not exist the phrase "Jesus is better than Buddha" ==> do you think "Jesus is better than Buddha"
Hence:
In my mind does not exist the phrase "My religion is better than Your religion" ==> do you think "Your religion is better than My religion"

Those Ideas [better than] did exist only in your mind, not in my mind:
Hence your remark "I suppose we disagree on a fundamental level"
On my simple statement "My religion is better than your religion" then as per English language you "belittle" the other religion

You are not the first Christian who really could not see this.
I think I know how this happened
When from young age you were always told "Jesus is the only way", "My religion, Christianity, is better than other religions"
Then after a few years for you it has become a fact "My religion is better than your religion"
And you don't even see it as "belittling" anymore, because it is a fact for you
Fact meaning "That what is true for you MUST be true for all humans"

But I can assure you that on RF if we are going to do a poll, that I am not the only one in this
At least @PopeADope will support me on this [to be sure of this, I did not use Muhammad in my example]

And if I extend it to "My religion is better than Atheism" then as per English language you "belittle" Atheism
At least @ChristineM will support me on this [Of course she will not feel belittled, that is a totally different issue. But as per definition it is "belittling"]

Is your religion better than what most Christians and Muslims are practicing as their religion? What do they say about your religion and your spiritual teacher?

Danny1988 · Jul 26, 2018

siti said:
Yes I can - I just did.

What is painfully obvious is that you are unable to pluck any verses (in or out of context) to support this argument. Where did Jesus teach this.

He didn't need to spell out the obvious, He wasn't dealing with a bunch of moronic imbeciles like we have today, who need everything spelled out in black and white because they are too dumb to use their God given intelligence.

It's up to you to show me that Jesus said it was OK to sit there like a duck while your enemy runs at you with a sword to decapitate you. We go to war against evil dictatorships to liberate people.

Preemptive war is also good, we may need to teach Iran a lesson very soon that the Christian West will not tolerate rouge evil dictatorships. It's perfectly OK to defend peace with lethal force, it just saves extra blood down the track. Christians are not ignorant morons, we are smart and we rule the world. We will conquer the whole world very soon.

TransmutingSoul · Jul 26, 2018

CG Didymus said:
Here is a list from a site claiming to be Baha'i:

I see this has been answered by a Baha'i above, so I will not further respond with a list.

I have learnt to go to the source in all these matters. In my search for God, there has been too many man motivated deviations from what I see God has expected of us.

The issue I now see with all Faiths to date, is that they are full of man made ideas with no firm authority as to be able to verify the authority of those thoughts. What I see has happened in the Baha'i Faith, for the first time in religious history, is a unchallengeable link of authority to what is the meaning of scripture.

What I like about this age is that there is very little that is not available on the net. The trick is what is in your heart when you start a search for it. With the Baha'i Faith I have found so many sites that wish to misrepresent the Faith, that I soon only used bahai.org and read from there. For quite some time I was using a deception .net site and I knew something did not smell right.

I guess my journey has accepted the Oneness of God, I feel I am part of all Faiths under One God and as such a name is not needed at this time.

The way I see it, if the Person has given prophecy and it has come true, if they are the fruit of the age they live in and inspire these great virtues from their followers, then God is behind all that.

Also to be considered is the difference between a Minor and Major prophet. My understanding is that a Major prophet gives a Message from the source (Via Holy Spirit) and a minor Prophet give a message as a reflection of the Major Prophets Message.

Peace be upon you and all.

Dawnofhope · Jul 26, 2018

Danny1988 said:
He didn't need to spell out the obvious, He wasn't dealing with a bunch of moronic imbeciles like we have today, who need everything spelled out in black and white because they are too dumb to use their God given intelligence.

It's up to you to show me that Jesus said it was OK to sit there like a duck while your enemy runs at you with a sword to decapitate you. We go to war against evil dictatorships to liberate people.

Preemptive war is also good, we may need to teach Iran a lesson very soon that the Christian West will not tolerate rouge evil dictatorships. It's perfectly OK to defend peace with lethal force, it just saves extra blood down the track. Christians are not ignorant morons, we are smart and we rule the world. We will conquer the whole world very soon.

This sounds similar to Muslim extremists:

"You to show me where Muhammad (PBUH) taught restraint while the Western infidels runs at us with weapons to destroy us. We go to war against the Amnerican infidels to liberate people.

Allah taught preemptive war is good, so we teach America a lesson very soon that the Muslims will not tolerate the arrogant Western infidels. It's perfectly OK to defend peace with lethal force, it just saves extra blood down the track. Mulsims are not ignorant morons as you portray us. We are smart and we will conquer the whole world very soon."

Your words as if spoken by a Muslim...

Epic Beard Man · Jul 26, 2018

CG Didymus said:
Are they wrong to include Adam? Are they wrong to include a lot of those people?
Here's what I found for a definition of a "Manifestation of God"

The Manifestation of God is a concept in the Bahá'í Faith that refers to what are commonly called prophets. The Manifestations of God are appearances of the Divine Spirit or Holy Spirit in a series of personages, and as such, they perfectly reflect the attributes of the divine into the human world for the progress and advancement of human morals and civilization through the agency of that same Spirit. Does Muhammad fit this definition? Was he a "perfectly" polished mirror reflecting the "attributes" of the divine?

"Say, O [Muhammad], "I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness." And woe to those who associate others with Allah -"

Surah 41:6

Muhammad's prophethood is a representation of divine providence which in itself can be seen as a manifestation of God. But one must be careful with the term [manifestation of God] which can see as some sort of anthromorphism. Muhammad belongs to a specific dispensation of individuals who were tasked to lead their respective communities.

Danny1988 · Jul 27, 2018

adrian009 said:
This sounds similar to Muslim extremists:

"You to show me where Muhammad (PBUH) taught restraint while the Western infidels runs at us with weapons to destroy us. We go to war against the Amnerican infidels to liberate people.

Allah taught preemptive war is good, so we teach America a lesson very soon that the Muslims will not tolerate the arrogant Western infidels. It's perfectly OK to defend peace with lethal force, it just saves extra blood down the track. Mulsims are not ignorant morons as you portray us. We are smart and we will conquer the whole world very soon."

Your words as if spoken by a Muslim...

The big difference is Christians don't go around killing and raping anyone who refuses to convert to Christianity as Islamic state does. We don't force our family members to stay in the Christian Church or be killed, we don't use terrorism to force people to listen to us, we don't push our beliefs down anyone throat.

Can you see a few small differences, yeah I though so. Your apology is accepted in advance.

Dawnofhope · Jul 27, 2018

Danny1988 said:
The big difference is Christians don't go around killing and raping anyone who refuses to convert to Christianity as Islamic state does. We don't force our family members to stay in the Christian Church or be killed, we don't use terrorism to force people to listen to us, we don't push our beliefs down anyone throat.

Can you see a few small differences, yeah I though so. Your apology is accepted in advance.

True Muslims don’t do any of that, just as true Christians didn’t involve themselves in a well known history of forced conversions to Christianity, brutal behaviour to their enemies, and killing heretics.

stvdv · Jul 27, 2018

CG Didymus said:
Is your religion better than what most Christians and Muslims are practicing as their religion? What do they say about your religion and your spiritual teacher?

My religion and my Master are NOT better than Christian's/Muslim's religion. I believe that all religions and all Masters can be used to achieve one's goal

Dawnofhope · Jul 27, 2018

Prestor John said:
A true prophet, when likened to this parable, would be able to see the part of the elephant before him and recognize that it is indeed an elephant’s tail or leg.

He would not be able to see the entire elephant. Just like no man can know everything about God. However, he will be able to see what the Lord decides to show him.

That is true in regards a prophet. The history of prophets is that they have often been misunderstood, ridiculed, and even put to death. So while Prophets may have special insight as far as the Lord has provided, we may repeat the errors of history where many have imagined their prophet to be false, whereas He just didn't meet their expectation.

Prestor John said:
I believe the Lord has revealed many truths through His prophets, both ancient and modern, and these truths can be found today in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It is the Kingdom of God upon the Earth.

While I believe Jesus to have been the Jewish Messiah, 'Son of God' John 3:3, and to have brought a New Covenant, I am skeptical as to merits of your Church beyond any other Christian denomination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

I'm willing to learn more though.

Prestor John said:
Just as the parable teaches, “blind men” cannot lead anyone to truth. It will take a true prophet.

Agreed.

Prestor John said:
I disagree and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God the Father’s literal son, both spiritually and physically.

There is a wealth of sacred writings to refute this belief:

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate. It would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Prestor John said:
Before His birth in mortality the Lord Jesus Christ was a spirit child of God known as Jehovah (Yahweh) and He, under the direction of Our Heavenly Father, was the God of Israel who created the physical universe.

That is a tenuous belief based on scripture, not on any fact in the phenomenal world. John 1:1 is the most commonly cited verse to support the idea but it can be easily proven the verse as a more logical meaning based on the way the word 'logos' was used by Philos a Hellenized Jew. The word meant mediator between God and man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo's_view_of_God#The_Logos

Prestor John said:
When the time came for Jehovah to dwell with Man, according to the covenant He made with Abraham, Mary was chosen to be His mortal mother, and with some process involving the Holy Spirit, God the Father implanted His genetic material into Mary thus making the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, both spiritually and physically.

He was as much Man as He was God.

The verses above account for the Divinity of Christ in regards to His being an image of the Divine attributes of God we all have. They were present in Christ to the highest degree of perfection.

Prestor John said:
That’s right. I think they also claim that Mary was only a little girl at the time.

I don't think so

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq narrates that when Maryam was grown, she would go into the mihrab and put a covering so no one saw her. Zechariah went into the mihrab and found that she had summer fruit in the winter and winter fruit in the summer. He asked "From whence is this?" She said, "It is from Allah. Indeed, Allah provides for whom He wills without account"[3:37]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_in_Islam

Prestor John said:
That is interesting, yet something I can never wholly agree with.

Moses and Muhammad were just men. I believe that Moses was a true prophet while Muhammad was not.

My opinion about Muhammad as a man is a mixed bag, and ultimately unimportant. I’ve heard good and bad about him.

That is the problem. We rely on hearsay without investigating the truth for ourselves. People prejudge Islam as they do your Church.

Prestor John said:
I cannot accept him as a true prophet because he denies the divinity of Christ, His role as the Savior, Redeemer and Mediator for all Creation and Mankind’s reliance on Him for existence, salvation, exaltation or any good thing.

Islam certainly exalts Christ as an important prophet alongside Muhammad Himself. Recognition of all the prophets is necessay for salvation, Christ included and not just Muhammad.

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."
Surah 3:84

Prestor John said:
Of course! I did not say that “everything we believe in is either right or wrong” I said, “Either what we believe in is right or it is wrong”.

I know that there are some things I believe in that are not true. I know that to be fact because I am not yet perfect.

However, that does not change the fact that whatever is true is true and everything else is false.

Believing that an elephant’s leg is a tree is false. It will never be true. It does not matter how much you want it to be a tree. It is not and will never become a tree.

Agreed.

Prestor John said:
True and completely irrelevant. Our perception does not affect what is truth.

It is completely relevant because we confuse what we perceive to be true for what IS true.

Prestor John said:
Believing Muhammad is a prophet does not make him so, just as believing that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God does not make Him so.

That's not saying much though!

Believing that Muhammad is not a prophet does not take away from the reality He is a prophet.
Believing Jesus is physically God incarnate does not take away from he fact He isn't.

See the problem. They are just statements of believe that take us no further ahead.

Prestor John said:
According to my perception (which I believe to be the truth) Jesus Christ is divine, therefore Muhammad cannot be a true prophet.

Same problem as above. I've provided proof above that Jesus is NOT God incarnate. You need to provide proof that He is. That's how discussions and debates work.

Prestor John said:
Correct. The Book of Mormon is a clear example of that and actually mentions how God gives to His children only what they can handle.

Some can handle more than others. Those who take and accept what has been revealed can eventually come to receive more.

That’s another reason I cannot believe that Muhammad was a true prophet because he claimed that he was the last.

God’s work is not finished as long as mortal Man is upon the Earth. Therefore, He would not stop calling prophets to guide His children.

Except the book of Mormon is anything but a clear example of God revealing Himself elsewhere. That is your belief but other than statements like "I believe it to be true", where is the proof and foundation for that belief?

Muhammad has proven Himself in that we have the Qur'an, we have a sizeable worldwide community whose lives are positively transformed by His message when compared to Christianity. The civilising power of the Qur'an is evident with the advent of the Islamic Golden Age.

Prestor John said:
Correct. The Book of Mormon is a clear example of that and actually mentions how God gives to His children only what they can handle.

Some can handle more than others. Those who take and accept what has been revealed can eventually come to receive more.

That’s another reason I cannot believe that Muhammad was a true prophet because he claimed that he was the last.

God’s work is not finished as long as mortal Man is upon the Earth. Therefore, He would not stop calling prophets to guide His children.

So what is clear about it and how does your Christian denomination prove Muhammad to be a false prophet?

Prestor John said:
It is because of my LDS beliefs that I cannot believe that Muhammad is a true prophet.

So, if you're talking to me, they are going to come up.

So lets hear your LDS proof that Muhammad isn't a prophet.

Prestor John said:
I have only talked with a handful of those of the Baha’i faith and they seem to try to be “good” with everyone, which reminds me of the saying, “If you stand for everything, you stand for nothing.”

What an ignorant thing to say. You clearly know next to nothing about either Islam or the Baha'i Faith. Why don't you do some research and stop making baseless statements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'í_Faith

http://www.bahai.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

Prestor John said:
I honestly do not think there is anything more to say.

I’m willing to discuss these things and learn, but there are some things he denies that I have come to believe are absolute truths.

And I cannot be swayed.

You don't have anything more to say because you have avoided learning about Islam and the Baha'i Faith. You probably live in an LDS bubble. I'm prepared to learn about the LDS and have taken the time to invite missionaries into my home. That courtesy works both ways.

stvdv · Jul 27, 2018

Prestor John said:
I have only talked with a handful of those of the Baha’i faith and they seem to try to be “good” with everyone, which reminds me of the saying, “If you stand for everything, you stand for nothing.”

adrian009 said:
What an ignorant thing to say. You clearly know next to nothing about either Islam or the Baha'i Faith. Why don't you do some research and stop making baseless statements.

Interesting thing to say. People who start judging others are already in their graves. So easy to prove them wrong. Because arrogance is known to blind humans

God is the Creator of everyone. God calls humans "His Children". If God is not the perfect Father who is? I am 100% sure God will stand for all His Children !!!

@Prestor John: Seems like calling God stupid when claiming: "If you stand for everything, you stand for nothing.”

Before you start arguing this one, remember also this one: "God created Human in His Image"

Dawnofhope · Jul 27, 2018

Danny1988 said:
With all due respect, that link doesn't say anything about the Christian view of war or violence.

It does actually. If you had taken the time to read and consider the link provided it introduced four broad Christian perspectives in regards violence from pacificism to just or Holy war.

Christians have held diverse views towards violence and non-violence through time. Currently and historically there have been four views and practices within Christianity toward violence and war: non-resistance, Christian pacifism, Just war theory, and the Crusade (Holy or preventive war).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

We therefore have differing theological or bible based perspectives to enable us to consider conflict:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence

Its become clear from your response in this thread that you support both a just war AND a holy war based on your understanding of a future apocalypse where Christ returns to defeat His enemies (those who don't believe in Him) and throw them into a fiery pit for eternity. There are certainly similarities to your theology and Muslim extremists.

Danny1988 said:
Lets get the basic facts right before we run off with all kinds of false ideas.

I was initially reluctant to respond as I'm not sure if you are willing or able to have a reasoned discussion about either Islam or Christianity.

Danny1988 said:
Fact 1. A Christian is a follower of Christ.

Agreed.

Danny1988 said:
Fact 2. If you follow Christ you will obey Him.

Agreed. The problem is that Christians, like Muslims have differing understandings as to what Jesus or Muhammad taught.

Danny1988 said:
Fact 3. Christ never used violence and He never advised His followers to use violence to achieve anything.

We need to be clear that Christ was a pragmatist, not a pacifist.

The Bible doesn't teach pacifism. There is clearly a time for peace and a time for war.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

God's wisdom expressed through Christ indicated that taking on the Romans was a bad idea.

Matthew 5:39-44

In fact He predicted the Romans would destroy Jerusalem and the temple and provided advice as to what the Christians should do to escape the impending apocalypse:

Matthew 24:1-2
Matthew 24:15-20

Many gentle natured Christians struggle with the God of the Old Testament being the same God as in the New Testament. However they are One and the same, the God we both worship. The God of the Old Testament (Yahweh) clearly commanded violence towards the Canaanites as reading the book of Joshua will tells us. There were complex reasons for this as there were for the conflict Muhammad and His followers engaged in.

Danny1988 said:
Fact 4. No follower of Christ has ever used violence to achieve a political or personal goal.

That's not true of course and there are countless examples throughout history to refute this.

Danny1988 said:
Fact 5. It's impossible to justify using violence as a follower of Christ.

Clearly Christians have and do use the bible to justify violence and I've heard you tells us how the Christians (presumably Christian America) are going to take on Iran and conquer the world.

Danny1988 said:
Fact 6. The crusades were commissioned by the Roman Catholic Church, which is not Christian.

Not true. The RCC is an inseparable denomination of Christianity. Its not just Islam you want to denounce, it is your fellow Christians too. I've met many wonderful Catholics, Protestants and Muslims.

Danny1988 said:
fact 7. The Roman Catholic Church executed over 50 million Christian Saints

You have no evidence to support this statement.

Danny1988 said:
Nobody has ever or will ever be able to charge Christians with acts of terror or violence, we love our enemies and we do good to everyone. That's what our Savior teaches us to do, and all true Christians obey Him.

What Christ taught and what Christians have done are two very different things. Many of the wars listed involve Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

Danny1988 said:
Please don't accuse Christians of committing evil, I know there are many who use the name of Christ to commit evil but they are obviously not Christians. They are importers, who come as wolves in sheep's clothing.

The fundamental problem here is judging who is a Christain and who isn't.

Only God can judge:

Matthew 7:1-4

He judges by our actions, not that we say we are Christians.

Matthew 25:31-46

Regardless it is for God to judge souls, not ourselves.

The same argument about true and false Christians can be applied to true and false Muslims. Muhammad taught His followers to act with fairness and justice and to live in peace, just as Christ did.

Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

Yes

No

Possibly

I don't know

Well-Known Member

Skanky Old Mongrel!

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Bearded Philosopher

Member

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i