Wow, that is so true!
Respect on many levels. Your mate, yourself, and Jehovah God, imo.
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Should I Become A Jehovah's Witness?
- Thread starter Earthling
- Start date
Wow, that is so true!
Respect on many levels. Your mate, yourself, and Jehovah God, imo.
Earthling
David Henson
"She wore a raspberry parfait, the kind you find in a second hand store. If it was warmer she wouldn't wear much more."
I suppose it would melt.
BSM1
What? Me worry?
Well...there ya go...
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Yet again, I'm baffled at how theists can apparently decide to pick what religion they choose to believe in. They can weight the 'pros and cons' and based on that decide if they are going to believe or not. As an atheist the only criteria I have for whether or not I believe something is the verifiable evidence available that indicates the truth of the belief. IF you have verifiable evidence that Jehovah's Witness religion is true, then you would have to believe it. IF you don't have verifiable evidence that this religion is true, what possible reason would you have for accepting it as true?
Earthling
David Henson
Think of it like this. You believe in science because the verifiable evidence, but now you have to choose a university to study, or teach or do science things in.
I believe the Bible. That isn't an issue. 99% of Christianity doesn't teach the Bible, they teach life lessons, and Greek philosophy. Those aren't an option for me. The Jehovah's Witnesses, aside from a few minor eccentricities and imperfections, teach the Bible.
And there is your answer. You clearly don't belong with us because all you see are the flaws in everyone but yourself.
What you accuse us of doing is what you do yourself. How perfect are you? How much does God have to forgive you when you are not willing to forgive those who might be your spiritual family?
Look at the history of God's people down through the centuries....how many of them were perfect? How many of them never had flaws in their personality? How did God handle things? He corrected them and if they would not be corrected, he dispatched them.
God had his standards and he supplied his spirit to assist imperfect people to try their best individually to uphold those standards. Some did better than others, but God did not allow the imperfections of the few to color his whole family. Even when he punished many who displayed a lack of faith in his nation, he supported the faithful through it all. (e.g. the faithful Hebrews carried off as captives to Babylon) Their example inspires us even today.
When you were doing the vile things of your (former?) lifestyle, practicing all the things that Jehovah hates, did you know that what you were doing was wrong in his eyes? If you did, why did you do them? Does Jehovah see repentance....or does he see an indecisive individual who just wants the truth to be his version of it?
You like the idea of the truth, but you are only interested in doing things your way. It won't happen. You will have to create your own religion instead of stealing your beliefs from people you hate.
I remember you saying that you want to go out preaching because you think you'd be good at it? And you can't see the problem in that statement? It's all about you. There is no room for "you" or "me" or any other individual in Jehovah's family. There is no place for those who see no one but themselves and their own version of what God and his people should be.
Who asks the world if they should they should become a JW? Seriously?
Aren't you only looking for reasons not to? I see lots.
Who should you have asked? Was it not Jehovah himself?
You bite the hand that fed you and expect that denigrating Christ's brothers is something that God will somehow forgive.....sorry, it doesn't work that way. Whatever we do to Christ's brothers, we do to him.
I'm sorry, but with your present attitude, you clearly do not belong with us.
Your constant flip-flopping is wearing thin. I am putting you on ignore from today. I've had enough.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Any religious organization that requires men to wear a suit just isn't my cup of tea.
You think John the Baptist, Elijah, Elisha, and various other homeless wilderness men of God would attend such a service, or even be welcomed in such a place?
But whatever floats your boat!
You think John the Baptist, Elijah, Elisha, and various other homeless wilderness men of God would attend such a service, or even be welcomed in such a place?
But whatever floats your boat!
nPeace
Veteran Member
@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha
I'm reminded of a gentleman, who said to me years ago. Out of all the Christian religion, he believed there were only two he would consider being a part of. One was Jehovah's Witnesses.
Like you, though he had issues with a few of their teachings - as he did with the other.
However, where did that leave him? Just attending meetings at both. For many years he just did that.
The important question, I think though is, was he obeying Jesus?
I think that's the better question to ask, than should I join this group, or that.
Once we can answer that question, "Am I obeying Jesus?" I think we would know the answer to the next - should I join this group?
So of course, we want to learn what obeying Jesus involved, then we would be comfortable with our choice.
@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha, it's good if you are doing all you can to learn what obeying Jesus involves.
Personally, I think you have the key at your fingertips, but seem a bit hesitant, or perhaps fumbly.
What I think is needed?
I think, humility.
For example, think of someone who likes to wear minis... a female of course.
She starts learning of God's ways, and think it's good, but insist on wearing her minis. Has she made up her mind... seriously? No. Her pride hinders her.
It's the same with other lifestyles and habits.
A person may decide they want to serve God, but they want to do so on their terms. For example, they may like to cuss, and so since they know they can't ask God for five minutes to cuss out with someone, they prefer to not take that step - which I think is fair, but does it not indicate that they are not really ready to serve God?
Thankfully, there is no sitting on the fence. We are either in, or we are out.
@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha, I believe you know what the scriptures say about the heart. Jeremiah 17:9
If we let it decieve us, we will continue to make excuses not to follow, or to find fault with what we can see is good - not perfect - but good.
I believe you know within yourself who is obeying Jesus, but there is a fierce fight going on there.
I truly hope you win. To lose would be disastrous for you.
I'm reminded of a gentleman, who said to me years ago. Out of all the Christian religion, he believed there were only two he would consider being a part of. One was Jehovah's Witnesses.
Like you, though he had issues with a few of their teachings - as he did with the other.
However, where did that leave him? Just attending meetings at both. For many years he just did that.
The important question, I think though is, was he obeying Jesus?
I think that's the better question to ask, than should I join this group, or that.
Once we can answer that question, "Am I obeying Jesus?" I think we would know the answer to the next - should I join this group?
So of course, we want to learn what obeying Jesus involved, then we would be comfortable with our choice.
@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha, it's good if you are doing all you can to learn what obeying Jesus involves.
Personally, I think you have the key at your fingertips, but seem a bit hesitant, or perhaps fumbly.
What I think is needed?
I think, humility.
For example, think of someone who likes to wear minis... a female of course.
She starts learning of God's ways, and think it's good, but insist on wearing her minis. Has she made up her mind... seriously? No. Her pride hinders her.
It's the same with other lifestyles and habits.
A person may decide they want to serve God, but they want to do so on their terms. For example, they may like to cuss, and so since they know they can't ask God for five minutes to cuss out with someone, they prefer to not take that step - which I think is fair, but does it not indicate that they are not really ready to serve God?
Thankfully, there is no sitting on the fence. We are either in, or we are out.
@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha, I believe you know what the scriptures say about the heart. Jeremiah 17:9
If we let it decieve us, we will continue to make excuses not to follow, or to find fault with what we can see is good - not perfect - but good.
I believe you know within yourself who is obeying Jesus, but there is a fierce fight going on there.
I truly hope you win. To lose would be disastrous for you.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
I've seen you bite the hand that gave you the Bible, and condemn virtually every Christian Church on earth for over a thousand years, as being Pagan, wicked, Satanic, whore of Babylon. You continue to label the majority of Christendom as such. Perhaps you should take your own advice?
Matthew 7:5 Context
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
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Cougarbear
Member
Cougarbear: I know many JW's and they are great people. But, their understanding of the Godhead is just not correct. We have a Father in Heaven, His Son or the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost. For some reason, JWs believe Michael the arc angel came down and became Jesus Christ. And, that Jehovah is the Father. Yet, in Exodus 3:14, Jesus called himself the great "I AM." "I AM that I AM. Pretty direct. Then, in John 8 verse 58, Jesus Christ said, "58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Thus, Jehovah came down and became Jesus Christ.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believes similarly that the Godhead is made up of 3 separate and distinct individual which is different from mainstream Christianity who believe in the 3-in-1 concept. Known as either the Mormons or LDS, they believe The Father's name is Elohim. They believe as other Christians that Jehovah came down off his thrown as the Son of God and became Jesus Christ to be our Savior. He performed the Atonement which includes taking upon the sins of the world and to pave the pathway of the atonement for all of Father's children on earth. That matches up with Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58. The Holy Ghost is a separate personage able to dwell within our hearts and minds testifying truth and comforting us in our needs.
Jesus Christ also established a Church with Apostles and Prophets. He also established other minister groups like the "seventy" he also called. And, as it came out in Paul's writings, he organized a priesthood with two orders, Melchizedek and Aaron. The higher priesthood (Inward ordinances like laying on of hands giving the gift of the Holy Ghost) and the lesser priesthood (Outward ordinances like baptism) Hebrews 5:4 - 6.
I see only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that has this established organization that Jesus established before a great apostasy took place. These are the days of restitution of all things. Acts 3:21
I also see only one Church that teaches that those who did not have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life will have another opportunity in the spirit world. 1Peter 3:18 - 21. Which also indicates they need to still have baptism by water to be saved. So, it's the only Church I know that baptizes vicariously for those who have died without the Gospel or baptism.
So, there is more study for you. However, one of the attributes we all need is to be more humble and not so judgmental about how we dress in Church. I believe we should be prepared to meet the Savior and if he comes to his people, we should not look slothful. So, we don't need to run out and buy $3,000 suits and costly clothes and jewelry. But, we should wear nice clean clothing that we can afford without trying to look better than others. A nice white shirt and slacks with a tie. You can get cheap white shirts and ties at Walmarts or Burlingtons. And, cheep suits too that look nice. Hope you look further than you have...
Cougarbear
Member
The important question, I think though is, was he obeying Jesus? I think that's the better question to ask, than should I join this group, or that. Once we can answer that question, "Am I obeying Jesus?" I think we would know the answer to the next - should I join this group?
Cougarbear: On the other hand, how do we know if we are obeying all that Jesus requires? Perhaps there is one group Jesus prefers over others because they have all the saving ordinances and knowledge required at this time. For the living and the dead ;-)
So of course, we want to learn what obeying Jesus involved, then we would be comfortable with our choice.
it's good if you are doing all you can to learn what obeying Jesus involves. Personally, I think you have the key at your fingertips, but seem a bit hesitant, or perhaps fumbly.
Cougarbear: I don't thing "comfort" is important. If we look at all that Jesus requires, we may never feel comfortable and I don't think that's important. What is important is that the Holy Ghost bears testimony which Church to belong to for each individual. His Church may not be for everyone. Just those who are ready. But, some of the others may still move a person closer to God.
What I think is needed? I think, humility. For example, think of someone who likes to wear minis... a female of course. She starts learning of God's ways, and think it's good, but insist on wearing her minis. Has she made up her mind... seriously? No. Her pride hinders her.
Cougarbear: Not sure if that's a good example but I understand what you are saying. Perhaps a woman who wears a mini is signaling to an unmarried young man looking for a wife. No problem with that, is there?
It's the same with other lifestyles and habits. A person may decide they want to serve God, but they want to do so on their terms. For example, they may like to cuss, and so since they know they can't ask God for five minutes to cuss out with someone, they prefer to not take that step - which I think is fair, but does it not indicate that they are not really ready to serve God?
Cougarbear: And, this is a good example. If we are seeking Christ, we need to find him on his terms, not ours. We may not like every change we have to make, but that's what being humble is all about. Good point.
Cougarbear: On the other hand, how do we know if we are obeying all that Jesus requires? Perhaps there is one group Jesus prefers over others because they have all the saving ordinances and knowledge required at this time. For the living and the dead ;-)
So of course, we want to learn what obeying Jesus involved, then we would be comfortable with our choice.
it's good if you are doing all you can to learn what obeying Jesus involves. Personally, I think you have the key at your fingertips, but seem a bit hesitant, or perhaps fumbly.
Cougarbear: I don't thing "comfort" is important. If we look at all that Jesus requires, we may never feel comfortable and I don't think that's important. What is important is that the Holy Ghost bears testimony which Church to belong to for each individual. His Church may not be for everyone. Just those who are ready. But, some of the others may still move a person closer to God.
What I think is needed? I think, humility. For example, think of someone who likes to wear minis... a female of course.
She starts learning of God's ways, and think it's good, but insist on wearing her minis. Has she made up her mind... seriously? No. Her pride hinders her.Cougarbear: Not sure if that's a good example but I understand what you are saying. Perhaps a woman who wears a mini is signaling to an unmarried young man looking for a wife. No problem with that, is there?
It's the same with other lifestyles and habits. A person may decide they want to serve God, but they want to do so on their terms. For example, they may like to cuss, and so since they know they can't ask God for five minutes to cuss out with someone, they prefer to not take that step - which I think is fair, but does it not indicate that they are not really ready to serve God?
Cougarbear: And, this is a good example. If we are seeking Christ, we need to find him on his terms, not ours. We may not like every change we have to make, but that's what being humble is all about. Good point.
Earthling
David Henson
What? You mean the smoking, the alcohol, the drugs, the obscene language, the homosexuality? I gave an accurate and fair criticism of myself as well as the Watchtower. Your problem is that you can't take criticism. Your organization has a long history of criticizing other denominations but can't stand to be criticized themselves.
I have foretold events that haven't come true in Jehovah's name? I have banned organ transplants that caused the deaths of thousands and then changed the unscriptural policy? I have swept under the rug the molestation of thousands of innocent children which is against the law of the governments whose law I am supposed to adhere to? Not me, that was Jehovah's organization, the Watchtower.
The same as you would be if your eyes were opened and you had integrity, honesty and a sense of fairness.
I forgive everyone who would do me harm, intentionally or unintentionally. Forgiveness, however, does not require one be blind to ones own imperfections, sweep them under the rug and protest fair criticism.
You keep denying and reacting angrily and haughtily to any mention of your organization's flaws while pointing out the flaws in the people of the Bible as if they justified the Watchtower's abhorrent behavior.
Just because I'm not sure I wan't to join in your debauchery? You criticize me and think my sins can be absolved by joining a worldly organization of arrogant false prophets, murderers and child molesters? You're buried up to the neck in your own filth. No, on second thought up to the nose, it's much quieter.
I can assure you PaD, that not a word of scripture was written by a Catholic. Every Bible writer was Jewish.
It is the church as an institution that strayed and became corrupt because of the power that it wielded over the kings and their subjects in many nations, many of whom were converted at the point of a sword. But it was the only "Christianity" in existence for centuries, just like there was a corrupt form of Judaism for centuries that God did not correct until Jesus came the first time.
The fact that God used the church to choose which books belonged in the canon, (which in its original form, with the Apocrypha is only officially used by the Catholic church anyway) in no way sanctions the path they took and the political meddling that took place over many centuries. She has much blood on her hands and because she continues to support the wars of the nations, (as do most of Christendom's churches) the bloodguilt has continued to this day. (Isaiah 1:15)
Jesus will separate those who claim to be his disciples when he comes again at the judgment. (Matthew 7:21-23) But for "many" it will mean complete rejection. When he says "I never knew you", he means that he has "never" recognized them as his own. We all need to examine what we believe and why we believe it.
Our future is in the hands of people we trust....but what if they have already proven that they cannot obey Jesus?
What if they are still not doing it after many centuries of opportunity to change their ways? Didn't God give Judaism the same opportunity? They failed, and it is my belief that Christendom is on the same path.
It's a shame that the church that shaped most people's faith today, did not do that originally. The beam was huge. Anyone who judged that form of worship as "Christian" did not know what Christ taught....and if they did, they are doubly accountable for what they taught.
You can have your church and what it stands for if it makes you feel better......that is your choice.
It will never be mine. And isn't it good that we have choices...?
Spiderman
Veteran Member
My respect for you grew from reading that post!
Not that my respect for you should matter to you, but im giving due props.
You sympathise with the organization, while at the same time point out its errors so well!
Most people are unable to have such a balanced view.
I don't like to get involved in disputes but I'm not feeling the JW love here.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
It is good that we have choices, but I read the Bible and become more confused.
I also don't agree with the Church's teachings. I think contraceptives can prevent a greater evil.
I think babies with HIV or other defects should be aborted. I think Quadrapalegics and those in chronic agony and dying, should have euthanasia services available to them.
The Church is against all that, which can relieve so much suffering in our world.
At the same time, im open to the possibility that I am wrong and the Church or Bible is right.
My point is, myself and many Catholics don't swallow what the Church teaches hook, line, and sinker.
However, i live at a Catholic charities apartment. The Catholic Church has given myself and many others free housing.
I enjoy a beautiful Cathedral in walking distance, and have received care at a nearby Catholic hospital.
Catholic charities also offers everyone who shows up, three free meals a day.
I see the Church is providing vital care and needs to Jesus in the poorest of the poor, the homeless, the sick, and the hungry.
Matthew 25 declares Christ will say "I was hungry and you gave me to eat...what you did for the least of my people, you did for me, come have your eternal reward."
Scripture says the whole law is summed up in love, and doing good deeds for others. We will be judged on account of it. Countless Catholics are doing just that.
Since I don't know the Bible is true. It contains contradictions. I don't know the correct interpretation, and much of it goes against my conscience, i have to simply follow the law of love.
I don't know how to interpret the text and God never told me what is true. Therefore, I and many others are not at fault for being confused.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
This!
Cougarbear
Member
Cougarbear: So, the vast majority are damned because of the actions of a few? Every organization has its bad people. Jesus had 12 apostles and one was really bad. Another a doubter without empirical evidence. Most never heard from again.