Gen 1:1,2 Creation ex nihilo ... NOT

writer · Sep 9, 2006

unformed and void The Hebrew for this phrase (tohu va-vohu) means "desert waste." The point of the narrative is the idea of order that results from divine intent. There is no suggestion here that God made the world out of nothing, which is a much later conception.
To contrary: Moses' Genesis 1:2 duzn't precede 1:1. It follows. And 1:1's the same, ancient conception as, for instance, Isaiah 45:18 "For thus says Jehovah, who created the heavens---He's the God who formed the earth and made it; He established it; He didn't create it a waste, He formed it to be inhabited..."

When God began to create The conventional English translation reads: "In the begining God created the heaven and the earth." The translation presented here looks to verse 3 for the completion of the sentence and takes verse 2 to be parenthetical, describing the state of things at the time when God first spoke.
Frum my reading, 1:1's its own sentence. Verse 2 is also its own sentence. And chronological. Not parenthetical. And more properly translated (given the context): "But the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep..." Ultimately, then, verse 3's neither precedent, nor simultaneous, to either 1 or 2. Rather refers to God's creative restoration of His original (1:1); judged, damaged (1:2a); creation

Support for understanding the text in this way...
S'pport for understanding the text mine iz: a) the natural sequencing of these sentences; b) Isaiah 45:18 and few other uses of tohu va-vohu in the Scriptures; c) the fact that God indeed is above nature and doesn't need preexisting materials to have accomplished His original, Gen 1:1 creation; d) the purpose of Gen 1 and 2 in general which (via events which are literal, historical, and factual) is allegorical for God's purpose for, and relationship with, man; e) the parallel with the creation, fall, then recovery of man, and the repeated cycle of fall and restoration throughtout the entirety of the Bible (OT and NT); f) the 3 different Hebrew verbs for making (create, made, form) employed in Gen 1-2; and g) the markers of "heavens [1] and earth [2] in 1:1 set off against "earth" only in verse 2; repeated in 2:4 "heavens [1] and earth [2] created...Jehovah God made earth [1] and heaven [2] (even the light and darkness in 1:3 being directed toward and related to the earth in 1:2)

59 The only verse in the Bible that actually describes God creating something other than just saying he did it is Genesis 2:7 and he didn't create out of nothing but used the existing dust of the ground.
I'd have to include s'more. @ least Gen 2:22 and Matthew 16:18; John 19:34; Ephesians 2:15 also; among others. If u follow my thought.
Thanks for initiating this discussion. Take care

FerventGodSeeker · Sep 10, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
There is, therefore, an impressive body of highly authoritative translation that sees Genesis 1:1 as the creation of order our of chaos, and not creation ex nihilo. The distinction is not unimportant.

Sorry if this has already been said (I haven't read the whole thread), but it is my understanding that the Hebrew word for "created" in Genesis 1:1 is bara, which means a creation out of nothing, as opposed to yatsar, used of God forming Adam out of already existing compontents (i.e. dirt), and asah, used of God when He "made" things in the creation account. There seems to be a clear distinction between the two words, since they're both mentioned as separate actions of God in the same verse:
"Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made." Genesis 2:3
I was always taught that one of these words meant creation out of nothing, and the other meant making something out of pre-existing parts.

FGS

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 10, 2006

FerventGodSeeker said:
Sorry if this has already been said (I haven't read the whole thread), but it is my understanding that the Hebrew word for "created" in Genesis 1:1 is bara, which means a creation out of nothing, ...

So, on the one hand we have your understanding, and, on the other, we have the understanding of the premier Hebraicists responsible for all major Jewish translations of the Torah. :shrug:

doppelganger · Sep 10, 2006

FerventGodSeeker said:
"Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made." Genesis 2:3
I was always taught that one of these words meant creation out of nothing, and the other meant making something out of pre-existing parts.

According to Strong's "made" in the KJV is translated from the Hebrew asah, which is translated variously as "accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth" etc.

"Created" in the same verse is bara, which has as its list of translations "to create", "select", "choose", "dispatch", "do" and "make."

So this paralell word usage doesn't clear things up, since it could also be translated "selected and brought forth" which would be consistent with the understanding of the Hebrew scholars regarding "creation of order out of chaos."

joeboonda · Sep 10, 2006

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(King James Bible, Genesis)

Can't be more clear than that.

1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(King James Bible, Colossians)

Again, we see Jesus, who is God, created all things, and by Him all things consist, AND, by His blood we have redemption.

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Again, we see, the Word, which is Jesus, was with God, and WAS GOD, and by HIM ALL things were made, and in HIM is life for HE is the light of men. My friends, when God said let us make man in our image, He was speaking of himself in plural, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and these three are one. Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are three persons, in one, one God. Like in marriage, two persons become one. Jesus is God, He created the Heavens and the earth, He then suffered, died, was buried, and rose again, and there can be no doubt about His ressurection, it is a fact, and when we repent, that is turn from the sin of unbelief to belief in Jesus to save us, we are born again, and have passed from death to life, never to go back into condemnation again, (see Jn 5:24). This is the true gospel, this is what the Bible clearly teaches, and what all men everywhere must do, Jesus said, "Ye MUST be born again". You can do all kinds of things in this life, but if you have never accepted Christ as Saviour, you are lost, bound for Hell, and this life you have lived and everything you have done is but dung, it is vanity, and you will perish in your sins and be forever lost. Or, be born again, trust in Christ, that His death was sufficient to pay for your sins, and you will have eternal life with Him who loves you and died for you, to pay a debt you could never pay. This is our sole choice in life, this is what it is all about, "Ye must be born again."

writer · Sep 10, 2006

So, on the one hand we have your understanding, and, on the other, we have the understanding of the premier Hebraicists responsible for all major Jewish translations of the Torah.
I guess we also got your, and maybe their, arrogance. If that's what 'tis. As if "Jewish" translations somehow guarantees impartiality, agendalessness, or accuracy in all respex

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 10, 2006

writer said:
I guess we also have your, and maybe their, arrogance.

Your petty personal attack was both unwarranted and underwhelming.

FerventGodSeeker · Sep 10, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
So, on the one hand we have your understanding, and, on the other, we have the understanding of the premier Hebraicists responsible for all major Jewish translations of the Torah.

It's not really my understanding, I'm not nearly smart or educated enough for that, lol. It's the understanding that I have been taught, and have read from theologians and Hebrew/Greek scholars. :shrug:

FerventGodSeeker · Sep 10, 2006

doppleganger said:
So this paralell word usage doesn't clear things up, since it could also be translated "selected and brought forth" which would be consistent with the understanding of the Hebrew scholars regarding "creation of order out of chaos."

Has any translation into English ever rendered the passage that way?

MaddLlama · Sep 10, 2006

joeboonda said:
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(King James Bible, Genesis)

Can't be more clear than that.

I think you missed the point. You're looking at the english transation. However the assertion in this thread is that is not what the original Hebrew word translates into properly. If you want to know what the text says, then the original language it was written in gives you the best understanding. The KJV is a useless argument here.

Pay attention.

doppelganger · Sep 11, 2006

FerventGodSeeker said:
Has any translation into English ever rendered the passage that way?

That's not really the point. It could be translated that way and be consistent with the "order out of chaos" sense of 1:1.

The translations are all over the place, with ESV and NIV only translating it as one word rather than two "creating". And YLT does someting interesting: "And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making."

The YLT is interesting because it seems consistent with the lack of a past, present and future tense in Ancient Hebrew, which instead uses a perfective and imperfective aspect.

This Jewish translation has "for it was on this day that God ceased from all the work that He had been creating [so that it would continue] to function."

Yona Newman has "in it He rested from all His work which G-d in creating had made," which eliminates the overlapping meaning and eliminates one of the words seeming superfluous (a problem for the NIV and ESV translators who simply dropped a word).

writer · Sep 11, 2006

67 Your petty personal attack was both unwarranted and underwhelming.
Thanks sir. I don't find it either petty or unjustifiably 'personal.' What i felt unwarranted (and underwhelmin) wuz your attempted offer of titles or names rather than any textual or semantic evidence (63). In fact, you've yet to address or attempt to address here, even with the help of your heroes or Hebraicists, the substance of post 62 on the at least 3 various different Hebrews words for creating or making used by Moses in Gen 1-2

1 There is, therefore, an impressive body of highly authoritative translation that sees Genesis 1:1 as the creation of order our of chaos, and not creation ex nihilo. The distinction is not unimportant.
If you're impressed by it, that's your prerogative. My question's WHY's the distinction important to u? Isn't the same essence of creation involved in both a creative restoration (Gen 1:3, 11, 14, 20) as there is in creation from zero? Cf Isa 45:18; Gen 1:1?

28, 45 At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, the earth was astonishing with emptiness, and darkness...and God said, 'Let there be light.' But Scripture did not come to teach the sequence of the creation.
To the contrary: Genesis 1:1, 2, 3 appears just as sequential as the 7 explicitly sequential days, Gen 1:3-2:3. To my simple reading, Mr Rashi appears mistaken becuz Genesis 1:1 comes before 1:2a. Not after 1:2a

14 Out of a confused heap who didst create this ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass of matter didst the universe adorn.
Then the question arises: Why or how'd earth becum waste and void?

8 The text can be read as saying, and a significant wealth of scholarship has rendered it as saying, that God created order out of chaos, i.e., out of pre-existing disorder.
Thas how i read Gen 1:2b-2:14. But, given that 1:1 precedes 1:2a:
not how i read 1:1. Thanks

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 11, 2006

writer said:
What i felt unwarranted (and underwhelmin) was your attempted offer of titles or names rather than any textual or semantic evidence (63).

Semantic evidence was suggested in the Etz Hayim commentary. You inability to recognize or understand it is your responsibility.

Along the same lins as Etz Hayim we read in the JPS Commentary on Genesis:

1. When God began to create This rendering of the Hebrew looks to verse 3 for the completion of the sentence. It takes verse 2 to be parenthetical, describing the state of things at the time when God first spoke. Support for understanding the text in this way comes from 2:4 and 5:1, both of which refer to creation and begin with "When." The Mesopotamian creation epic known as Enuma Elish also commences the same way. In fact, enuma means "when". Apparently, this was a conventional opening styly for cosmological narratives. As to the peculiar syntax of the Hebrew sentence - a noun in the construct state (be-re'****) with a finite verb (bara') - analogies may be found in Leviticus 14:46, Isaiah 29:1, and Hosea 1:2. This seems to be the way Rashi understood the text.

That Rashi and ibn Ezra concurred with this rendition is noteworthy, though perhaps not to you.

joeboonda · Sep 12, 2006

MaddLlama said:
I think you missed the point. You're looking at the english transation. However the assertion in this thread is that is not what the original Hebrew word translates into properly. If you want to know what the text says, then the original language it was written in gives you the best understanding. The KJV is a useless argument here.

Pay attention.

I have read books on the Hebrew meanings, (and Greek in the NT), I understand that. I am simply stating my understanding and that is that bara is to create from nothing. "God said". That is just my belief, God spoke the world and then everything else into existence, like the sun moon and stars on the fourth, literal 24hr day, etc. I don't believe there was chaos before then. I do believe the Bible, I believe around 6,000 years ago, God created the Heavens and the Earth, and about 4,400 years ago there was a Great Flood, and about 2,000 years ago, Christ died for all our sins, and that He is coming back soon.

writer · Sep 12, 2006

73 Semantic evidence was suggested in the Etz Hayim commentary.
Posts 62 (and 72's related comment) did not concern semantic lack of evidence or evidence that a "when" belongs in Genesis 1:1. Rather they explicitly and specifically dealt with 3 different Hebrew verbs in Genesis 1-2 for the thought of making or creating. Which you now mention only indirectly and in passing: "...a finite verb 'bara'

You inability to recognize or understand it is your responsibility.
Based on that, i guess it'd be fair to say that your inability, dear sir, to recognize or understand or read what post 62 was talkin about is your responsibility. Thanks for tellin me, though, about my responsibility

When God began to create This rendering of the Hebrew looks to verse 3 for the completion of the sentence. It takes verse 2 to be parenthetical, describing the state of things at the time when God first spoke. Support for understanding the text in this way comes from 2:4 and 5:1, both of which refer to creation and begin with "When."
I follow that. But in rebuttal: unlike 2:4 and 5:1, 1:1 does not literally contain the word "when." Nor do they require that 1:1 imply it. Additionally, as mentioned before: 2:4 itself contains 2 different Hebrew verbs for the thought of making. These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were CREATED. When Jehovah God MADE earth and heaven. As pointed out in post 62. This to me implies 2 distinct creations if you will: Gen 1:1 followed sequentially in the text by a calamity (1:2a). Followed by the restoration, albeit creative restoration, Gen 1:2b-2:25. The first, original creation: ex nihilio, out of nothing. The 2nd: corresponding to another Hebrew verb "made": effectively restoring what had been damaged of the original (1:2a). This seems to me further emphasized in 2:4 by "heavens [1] and earth [2]" corresponding to 1:1's identical order; followed in 2:4 by "earth [1] and heaven [2]" corresponding to 1:2's mention of the earth only, followed by 1:3's implied reference to the heavens (light)

The Mesopotamian creation epic known as Enuma Elish also commences the same way.
In point of fact, regardless that Gen 2:4 and 5:1contain the word "when;" 1:1 does not explicitly commence the same way

enuma means "when". Apparently, this was a conventional opening styly for cosmological narratives.
Regardless how that may be claimed 'apparently;' Gen 1:1 in point of fact contains no such opening expressly

As to the peculiar syntax of the Hebrew sentence - a noun in the construct state (be-re'****) with a finite verb (bara') - analogies may be found in Leviticus 14:46, Isaiah 29:1, and Hosea 1:2.
Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David camped! Add year to year; let the feasts run their course, Isa 29:1.
Moreover, whoever goes into the house all the while that it's shut up shall be unclean until the evening, Lev 14:46.
At the beginning of Jehovah's speaking to Hosea, Jehovah said to Hosea, G, take to yourself a wife of harlotries and children of harlotries, for the land's entirely given over to harlotry, and thus departs from Jehovah, Hosea 1:2

This seems to be the way Rashi understood the text. That Rashi and ibn Ezra concurred with this rendition is noteworthy, though perhaps not to you.
Then that'd make Rashi and ibn Ezra's thought on Gen 1:1-3 identical with the vast majority of readers: Christians, Jews, and others; that I know. Although the opposite understanding's held by me and a sizable minority whom i know. In any case, my question to Rashi, ibn Ezra, and you remains (i'll understand if you'd rather not answer it): What so-important meaning do they find in their understanding?
Thanks

FerventGodSeeker · Sep 12, 2006

doppleganger said:
doppleganger said:

That's not really the point. It could be translated that way and be consistent with the "order out of chaos" sense of 1:1.

Click to expand...

But that really is exactly the point. If no Biblical or linguistic scholar in all the history of the English language has ever found that translation to be credible enough to actually record it in an English Bible, that certainly should tell us something.

FGS

joeboonda · Sep 12, 2006

From Got questions.org:

Question: “What does Creation 'ex nihilo' mean?”
Answer: "Ex nihilo" is Latin for "from nothing." The term "creation ex nihilo" refers to God creating everything from nothing. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Prior to that moment there was nothing. God didn’t make the universe from preexisting building blocks. He started from scratch.
The Bible never expressly states that God made everything from nothing, but it is implied. In Hebrews 11:3 we read, “By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible” (Hebrews 11:3). Scholars take this to mean that the Bible teaches that the universe came into existence by divine command and was not assembled from preexisting building blocks.

Humans can be very creative but we require materials from which to build something. God is not so constrained. This is difficult for us to comprehend. That is because of a fundamental law of physics which we are all familiar with. Whether or not we know what it’s called we’re all familiar with a very basic principle. The “first law of science” states that matter (the stuff the universe is made of) cannot be created or destroyed. Matter can converted from solid to liquid to gas to plasma and back again; atoms can be combined into molecules and split into their component parts; but matter cannot be created from nothing or completely destroyed. And so this idea that God created everything from nothing is not natural to us. It’s not natural at all. It’s supernatural.

The term “creation ex nihilo” refers to the supernatural event which was the beginning of the universe. It was the moment that God created something from nothing. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…” (Genesis 1:1).

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 13, 2006

joeboonda said:
From Got questions.org: ...
The term creation ex nihilo refers to the supernatural event which was the beginning of the universe. It was the moment that God created something from nothing. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).

Well, that certainly cleared up the matter. Thanks, joeboonda.

joeboonda · Sep 13, 2006

Lol, sarcasm noted and accepted. Was late, and I know that was to simplistic, but its what I and many Christians believe. I will try if I find time to delve deeper into the matter. I have some books that address it indirectly, but its been a while...I do believe God can do the supernatural, and the Bible seems to infer that He spoke everything into existence out of nothing, that's all.

, “By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible” (Hebrews 11:3).

In Christianity we have two sides, unfortunately, one that believes in a 'gap theory' that there was a long period of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I have books on that, and as far as myself, I believe not in the gap theory, nor in evolution. I believe God made the world from nothing, it was 'very good', and not built on 'billions of years" of death, decay, and survival of the fittest. I believe that in the beginning, as Christ said, and Genesis said that in the beginning God made them male and female, that the beginning was the beginning, God spoke, created the world in 6 24hr days, and rested the 7th, but could have taken a split second, or a longer time IF he wanted to, but He did it as a guide for us, to have that day of rest on the last day. I won't go into the bara and asah and tohu and bohu today, I believe the earth is young from the evidence I have been presented with, and that God created it out of nothing, an interesting topic, but one which I have come to rest.

writer · Sep 14, 2006

most xians i know of interpret Gen 1:2 to mean that God out of nothin created the earth: waste and emptiness.
W/ which i disagree

Makes Rashi's and ibn Ezra's thot on Gen 1:1 diff from the majority of readers: Jews, Christians, others, i know.

10 I don't believe that matter can be created from nothing
Why not?

where did the matter that was organized come from?
Didn't God create it? Thanx

Gen 1:1,2 Creation ex nihilo ... NOT

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