Why Are Atheists Less Likely To Become Criminals?

gnostic · Sep 9, 2006

SpiritualSon said:
The lack of repentance and good works of charity is the reason some Christians commit crimes. That's because of no religious up bringing.

I don't think it is as easy as that.

There are many Christians who believed that they can be saved through belief or faith alone, without the need of good deeds, simply because many believe that the Christian doctrine of repetence will solve all their problems.

Instead of learning right from wrong, avoiding committing crime, and being accountable for one's own action, these Christians relying on God's forgiveness for any sin or crime committed simply through repetence. To me, these repetence seemed somewhat hollow, and don't seem to have any substance. They seemed to think can get away from crime/sin by repenting and still going to heaven, instead of avoiding any criminal acts.

This core doctrine on repentence is actually Christian's worse enemy.

Poverty and lack of education are indeed factors that result on some religious people committing crime and ending up in prison, which Sparc had already touched upon.

doppelganger · Sep 9, 2006

gnostic said:
Instead of learning right from wrong, avoiding committing crime, and being accountable for one's own action, these Christians relying on God's forgiveness for any sin or crime committed simply through repetence. To me, these repetence seemed somewhat hollow, and don't seem to have any substance. They seemed to think can get away from crime/sin by repenting and still going to heaven, instead of avoiding any criminal acts.

Reminds me of a joke by Emo Phillips:

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.

gnostic · Sep 9, 2006

LOL:biglaugh:

Yes, that sounds logical, in the most perverse fashion, doppleganger.

Radar · Sep 9, 2006

Sunstone said:
It's suprising how many people say to me, "You're an Atheist? You must have no conscience about committing crime then." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we see a very different picture:

In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about 1/10 of 1%. W. T. Root, professor of psychology at the Univ. of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said "Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are absent from penitentiariers or nearly so.

During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics, 26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious. Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics, 435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and 1 Unitarian.

Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked 22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates. In "Who's Who" 91% were college graduates, and he commented that "intelligence and knowledge produce right living" and that "crime is the offspring of superstition and ignorance."

Surveyed Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate religious, carefully herded by chaplains.

In Joliet, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists and 0 non-religious.

Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in their state population. But in the prisons, there were 22 times as many Baptists as Jews, and 18 times as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing, there were 1,553 total inmates with 855 of them Catholics (over half), 518 Protestants, 177 Jews and 8 non-religious. There's a very interesting qualified statistic.

Read the rest of the article at:

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/09/godlessness-rare-behind-bars.html

Do these statistics and the statistics in the full article surprise you?

How do you account for the fact that so few atheists are in prison if you believe that atheism leads to immorality?

Why are atheists, as a group, less likely to become criminals?

Conversely, why are religious people, as a group, more likely to become criminals?

Why do you suppose the 52% of Americans who belong to no church only represent 1% of the prison population?

If the Religious Right takes over, will the crime rate go up?

If a country becomes a theocracy, can we expect crime to soar?

Last, is it true that Mike182 read the entire Encyclopedia Britannica when he was only 15 because someone told him there were outstanding sex scenes in it, or is this just another silly RF rumor no one knows how it got started?

Good post and I am a non believer. But I would have to ask what is the percentage for the whole American society religious to non? I would think that it would be close to the same as the prisons. We seem to be studying the part without including the whole. Institutions and corporations tend to be a sampling of society. So if Less than 1 percent of the population is non-religious that would reflect in the rest of society.

I could be wrong but we should look at the whole.

MaddLlama · Sep 10, 2006

Radar said:
Good post and I am a non believer. But I would have to ask what is the percentage for the whole American society religious to non? I would think that it would be close to the same as the prisons. We seem to be studying the part without including the whole. Institutions and corporations tend to be a sampling of society. So if Less than 1 percent of the population is non-religious that would reflect in the rest of society.

I could be wrong but we should look at the whole.

I was pretty sure that the article stated the statistics were calculated per capita.

nutshell · Sep 10, 2006

Sunstone said:
It's suprising how many people say to me, "You're an Atheist? You must have no conscience about committing crime then." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we see a very different picture:

In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about 1/10 of 1%. W. T. Root, professor of psychology at the Univ. of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said "Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are absent from penitentiariers or nearly so.

During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics, 26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious. Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics, 435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and 1 Unitarian.

Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked 22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates. In "Who's Who" 91% were college graduates, and he commented that "intelligence and knowledge produce right living" and that "crime is the offspring of superstition and ignorance."

Surveyed Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate religious, carefully herded by chaplains.

In Joliet, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists and 0 non-religious.

Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in their state population. But in the prisons, there were 22 times as many Baptists as Jews, and 18 times as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing, there were 1,553 total inmates with 855 of them Catholics (over half), 518 Protestants, 177 Jews and 8 non-religious. There's a very interesting qualified statistic.

Read the rest of the article at:

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/09/godlessness-rare-behind-bars.html

Do these statistics and the statistics in the full article surprise you?

How do you account for the fact that so few atheists are in prison if you believe that atheism leads to immorality?

Why are atheists, as a group, less likely to become criminals?

Conversely, why are religious people, as a group, more likely to become criminals?

Why do you suppose the 52% of Americans who belong to no church only represent 1% of the prison population?

If the Religious Right takes over, will the crime rate go up?

If a country becomes a theocracy, can we expect crime to soar?

Last, is it true that Mike182 read the entire Encyclopedia Britannica when he was only 15 because someone told him there were outstanding sex scenes in it, or is this just another silly RF rumor no one knows how it got started?

Your sources are sorely lacking in credibility. They are obviously slanted and people can do anything with statistics.

MaddLlama · Sep 10, 2006

nutshell said:
Your sources are sorely lacking in credibility. They are obviously slanted and people can do anything with statistics.

Obviously slanted? Howso?

Sunstone · Sep 10, 2006

nutshell said:
Your sources are sorely lacking in credibility. They are obviously slanted and people can do anything with statistics.

What's the evidence for your allegations?

nutshell · Sep 10, 2006

Number one: Look at the name of the organizations producing and reporting the statistics. They hardly come from a credible peer-reviewed journal or other respectable academic source.

MaddLlama · Sep 10, 2006

You're confusing the people blogging about the subject, and the people coming up with the statistics. The website "debunking christianity" did not write the article posted. The article posted came from a different site, which was based on the book "The New Criminology", and the statistics also came from:

Denise Golumbaski
Research Analyst
Federal Bureau of Prisons

The only problem I can see with the statistics is that the book they came from is out of print, and the study that this originated from is more than 5 years old.
I did read, however, that the book does not seem to take into account people who convert after incarceration, as previously questioned in the thread. I have no idea how acurate that is, since I can't read the book for myself. However, I do still think that my education and income level argument is the best one for this subject.

MaddLlama · Sep 10, 2006

So, the bureau of justice site that has all the statistics doesn't seem to think that this is an issue worth studying. In poking around the 'net for a while, apparently this article in question is of dubious origin and has been circulating the 'net for a while, and is actually a 1925 document of "doubtful validity" written by Dale Clark.
However the statistics given by Denise are real. However, she has not worked at the federal bureau of prisons since 1999, so as I said, the stats we're working with are really old (from March of 1997).

I worry that my poking around for some other souces doesn't give me much of ANYTHING to work with except copies of this article, and angry responses to it. Except this, which usually has good stats. His statistics presented come also from the bureau of of federal prisons, but are more up to date and present much different numbers: app 62% Christian to app 19% atheist/no religious affiliation/no answer.

We are aware of two non-academic web pages, featuring commentary by self-described atheists, which attempt to present statistics in such a way as to indicate that religion leads to crime and incarceration. Some of these statements are addressed here, but that is not the focus of this page. Such a notion hardly requires refutation: available statistics, academic studies (as opposed to positional essays by atheists), and common experience attest otherwise.
Religious proponents, on the other hand, often use statistics relating to religiosity to show that religious participation prevents crime and incarceration.
The statistically verifiable reality should come as no surprise to those who have first hand experience with criminal and religious sociology:

1. The majority of Americans (85%) have a stated religious preference. 2. The majority of American prisoners (between 80 and 100%, depending on the study consulted) also have a stated religious preference.
3. A disproportionately high number of prisoners were not in any way practicing religionists prior to incarceration. That is, they exhibited none of the standard sociological measures of religiosity, such as regular prayer, scripture study, and attendance at worship services.

Thus, some commentators on one side have claimed that being religious is associated with incarceration. This is based only on religious preference statistics. American sociologists are well aware that nearly all Americans profess a religious preference. But there is a major difference between those who are actually religious affiliated, that is, members of a congregation (approx. 45 to 65% of the population, varying by region), and those who merely profess a preference, likely the name of the denomination that their parents of grandparents were a part of. (One of the best discussions of this phenomenon can be found in The Churching of America, 1776-1990, by Roger Finke and Rodney Stark; New Brunswick, New Jersey: Rutgers University Press, 1992.)

There is no sociologically valid basis for comparing "theists to nontheists" with regards to incarceration rates (or any other sociological measure) because "theists" do not constitute an identifiable social group. The fact that non-practicing (functionally nonreligious) people are highly over-represented among prisoners is a separate issue, apart from questions relating to belief and philosophical position.

Personally I don't think the numbers mean anything, and this is precisely why. I think that this is all relative to education, location and poverty level, as I said before. Actually, there is a pdf file on the bureau of justice website with those statistics if anyone is interested in reading them.

Now, you will all bow to my superior reseacrching power

Mercy Not Sacrifice · Sep 10, 2006

sparkyluv said:
How many of those Catholics and Protestants are born again? How many are born again, but don't walk with the Lord?

The day there are more atheists in prison than Christians is the day I'll be truly terrified cause that means there are more atheists in this country than there are Christians. For there to be more "Christians" in jail than atheists makes sense seeing as how there's a WHOLE LOT more Christians in this country than atheists. That doesn't mean atheists are better people or that Christians are worse or vice versa.

I hate to break this to you, but the math that you're using to draw this conclusion is WAY off.

Mercy Not Sacrifice · Sep 10, 2006

Faint said:
I agree. It's like, which child is going to be more well-behaved...the child who sees the importance in behaving well, or the child who is afraid of getting caught by his/her supernatural parent?

Very interesting.

Or it may be that the level of intelligence and reasoning skills that lead one away from organized religion ALSO contributes to making one a smarter criminal (the dumber ones tend to get caught more often).

Honestly, I don't think that is the case. Barring the occasional psychopathic genius (Dr. Hannibal Lecter, etc.), genuine intelligence and criminal smarts tend to be mutually exclusive within individuals.

Sunstone, it's obvious that the government is persecuting Christians again. I actually read that in order to save money, death row has done away with electric chairs and lethal injections in favor of feeding prisoners to lions. This also saves local zoos the cost of feeding, which can be very expensive for a pride of adult lions.

Ssshhh...don't tell 'em that, they'll find out about the modern Inquisition....

I must say, "Dr. Christian" sounds like the name some cheesy 1950's superhero...or villian, or maybe a Night Ranger b-side.

Or the newest Saturday Night Live line.

"Herded"? I wonder if the sheep pun was intended? Better than being carefully flocked by chaplains I suppose.

Angelina Joliet is such a whore to let so many people inside her. I wonder what Brad Pittt thinks about thatt.

Poor Brad Pitt.

In all seriousness, yes. It's very interesting.

I never thought atheism led to immorality myself.

It's a common belief that Christian fundamentalism not only steadfastly believes in but intently advocates. It isn't pretty.

Smarter. Harder to catch. I'm not entirely sure that atheists are less likely to become criminals.

Racial profiling.

Yes, that's possible too.

Yes, because my friends and I will be throwing molotov cocktails at various government buildings, and I doubt we would be alone in that.

One can only hope. (see above) I would like the revolution to be televised.

That wasn't Mike182, it was Jayhawker Soule. Please double check your facts.

Tagra · Sep 10, 2006

The reason for the stats might be because there are less Athiest or Agnostic then Religious people (far, far less). Although it is a fact that Religion is behind most if not all wars.

Peace4all · Sep 10, 2006

Sunstone said:
Last, is it true that Mike182 read the entire Encyclopedia Britannica when he was only 15 because someone told him there were outstanding sex scenes in it, or is this just another silly RF rumor no one knows how it got started?

Realy i did not know that, looks like im gonna have to read Britannica for myself.
Im Just kidding

Inky · Sep 13, 2006

Another thing that may skew the numbers is the cultural tendency to put the religion you were raised into on forms. Most people whose parents were Protestant and went to church with them will check the little box next to Protestant even if they rarely ponder the meaning of their religion and haven't been to church in years. On the other hand, people who were raised non-religious and later found a faith will identify as religious on the form.

spacemonkey · Sep 13, 2006

I don't believe that the belief or non belief in god determines if someone will engage in criminal behavior or not. Economic factors and education (as already stated by several) is the primary (not the only) cause of one turning to crime. Many incarcerated people also convert while inprisoned, because the promise of forgivness and a better afterlife is tempting for someone who is oppressed (ask the Romans).

Just what exactly is a criminal though? In the United States, a guy smoking a marijuana cigarette by himself in his home is considered a criminal, even though he is affecting no one in a detrimental way. The legislative branches of our various local, state, and federal governments aren't happy unless they are overloading us with laws that take away our personal freedoms and make everyone into a criminal of some kind so that they can levy fines and "court costs" against them or protect their fat cat coporate intrests. Do you think seatbelt laws are enacted to protect you? HA! They are their to protect insurance companies from paying out if someone is injured in a car accident and wasn't wearing one.

Toblerone2 · Sep 13, 2006

13 said:
Among the developed democracies absolute belief in God, attendance of religious services and Bible literalism vary over a dozenfold, atheists and agnostics five fold, prayer rates fourfold, and acceptance of evolution almost twofold. Japan, Scandinavia, and France are the most secular nations in the west, the United States is the only prosperous first world nation to retain rates of religiosity otherwise limited to the second and third worlds (Bishop; PEW). Prosperous democracies where religiosity is low (which excludes the U.S.) are referred to below as secular developed democracies.

Thanks Dopple, I was looking for good places to retire, and France has the wine and the cheese...and the unemployment :run:ah well, c'est la vie...

Toblerone2 · Sep 13, 2006

spacemonkey said:
Just what exactly is a criminal though? In the United States, a guy smoking a marijuana cigarette by himself in his home is considered a criminal, even though he is affecting no one in a detrimental way. The legislative branches of our various local, state, and federal governments aren't happy unless they are overloading us with laws that take away our personal freedoms and make everyone into a criminal of some kind so that they can levy fines and "court costs" against them ...

If I do something that is against the prevailing social mores, I am still a criminal. Even if I grew up in another country, and don't consider a specific behavior to be wrong / bad / illegal, I still have to obey the laws of the place I am in. So, where does it say that I have to be religious or not to choose to break the law? I think that my motives then are other than religious.

Perhaps I just needed the money...but back to the question at hand, has it been answered by the "% of atheists in the population" is equal to the "% of atheists in prison"? Has anyone checked the report to see if it mentions this?

spacemonkey · Sep 13, 2006

Toblerone2 said:
If I do something that is against the prevailing social mores, I am still a criminal. Even if I grew up in another country, and don't consider a specific behavior to be wrong / bad / illegal, I still have to obey the laws of the place I am in. So, where does it say that I have to be religious or not to choose to break the law? I think that my motives then are other than religious.

Perhaps I just needed the money...but back to the question at hand, has it been answered by the "% of atheists in the population" is equal to the "% of atheists in prison"? Has anyone checked the report to see if it mentions this?

The point I was trying to make is that there are many people incarcerated for reasons they do not believe to be criminal, leaving them feeling oppressed and therefore more likely to turn to a religion that promises a better afterlife.

Why Are Atheists Less Likely To Become Criminals?

The Lost One

Through the Looking Glass

The Lost One

Active Member

Obstructor of justice

Well-Known Member

Obstructor of justice

De Diablo Del Fora

Well-Known Member

Obstructor of justice

Obstructor of justice

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Active Member

Active Member

Pneumatic Spiritualist

New Member

New Member

Pneumatic Spiritualist