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A Scientific Tour of the Shroud of Turin.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
In the Talmud, Yoma 39a,b we read:

Furthermore, during his tenure as High Priest, the strip of crimson wool that was tied to the head of the goat that was sent to Azazel turned white, indicating that the sins of the people had been forgiven, as it is written: “Though your sins be as crimson, they shall be white as snow” (Isaiah 1:18). . . .

The Sages taught: During the tenure of Shimon HaTzaddik, the lot for God always arose in the High Priest’s right hand; after his death, it occurred only occasionally; but during the forty years prior to the destruction of the Second Temple, the lot for God did not arise in the High Priest’s right hand at all. So too, the strip of crimson wool that was tied to the head of the goat that was sent to Azazel did not turn white, and the westernmost lamp of the candelabrum did not burn continually.

And the doors of the Sanctuary opened by themselves as a sign that they would soon be opened by enemies, until Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai scolded them. He said to the Sanctuary: Sanctuary, Sanctuary, why do you frighten yourself with these signs? I know about you that you will ultimately be destroyed, and Zechariah, son of Ido, has already prophesied concerning you: “Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars” (Zechariah 11:1), Lebanon being an appellation for the Temple.

Rabbi Yitzḥak ben Tavlai said: Why is the Temple called Lebanon [Levanon]? Because it whitens [malbin] the Jewish people’s sins, alluded to by the root lavan, meaning white.​

This is the Talmud. Written by orthodox Jews with no input from Christianity. "Forty years prior to the destruction of the second temple" is 30 CE. The door of the temple is the curtain said to be torn around 30 CE when an eclipse and earthquake reeked some havoc. The Gospels claim that another historical catastrophe occurred simultaneous to the eclipse and earthquake. And the Gospels mention the self-same opening of the door, or veil, at the self-same time. . . So it's nice to see history faithfully recorded by Jews and Christians alike.

The strip of crimson wool, tied to scapegoat, turns white when the sins are forgiven. And once again the Gospels and Apostolic Writings parallel the Talmud. Reference Hebrews 10:1-10:

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Heb 10:1–10). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.​

The Jewish writer of the book of Hebrews justifies the veracity of the Talmud, Yoma 39a-b. ------The crimson wool stopped turning white around 30 CE (precisely as the Talmud records) because once the final offering (די ) signified that "it is finished" (dalet-yod) the point of the yearly offerings faded away. The crimson, signifying man's sins, had permanently faded away (Isaiah 1:18) leaving the blood, represented by the crimson (representing man's sin) white as snow.

EXHIBITS 1, 2, AND 3:

https://ascientifictouroftheshroudofturin.blogspot.com/


fetch






Exhibit 1 is the Shroud of Turin as it would be seen by the naked eye. It is in fact similar to a photographic negative. Note that the areas around the eyes, which in a normal image would be dark, are instead light. This anomaly carries throughout the image manifesting it as a negative image.

Exhibit 2 is the Shroud of Turin marked up to show where the blood is on exhibit 1. Notice that in exhibit 1, and exhibit 2, the blood is dark, crimson, as it would be if one were looking at an actual image of what's being depicted in the image rather than the negative image in exhibit 1. . . . . That's problematic since every other element of the image inverts dark for light, and light for dark, as is the case with a negative image.

Exhibit 3 is the Shroud of Turin as it appears on a photographic negative before the image is developed to produce a positive image. And since the original image on the Shroud is already a negative, the photographic negative transforms it into a positive image.

Someone familiar with the scientific method, someone who knows the methodology of modern science, sees a glaring problem with exhibit three which points out the same glaring problem in exhibit 1. The blood on exhibit 3, since it's a positive image, should show the blood, which is crimson, as dark, and not light, since every other dark area is dark and every other light area is light. The blood on exhibit 3 should be dark, and not light.

This means the blood on exhibit 1, which is the negative image before its transformed by the photographic negative, should be white, as all other dark elements on the image are white (or light). But its clearly not. The crimson blood on the cloth of the final scapegoat in the sacrificial system, the "it is finished, complete," i.e., the final legitimate sacrifice, shows that the crimson on the wool, just as it had every Yom Kippur, turned white as snow in order to signify that the blood of this sacrifice was received by God as the final payment required to return man to his original endowment as co-partner with God.

If a scientist of any repute and care examined the three exhibits he could say clear as day that for the images to be correct the blood stains on exhibit 3 should be on exhibit 1, and the blood stains on exhibit 1, should be on exhibit 3. . . The blood stains are the only elements of the images that are inverted. All the other elements are negative on the negative, and positive on the positive. The blood is out of sync with the rest of the image.

If the Catholic Church had the scientific IQ to point out the anomaly above, the Shroud would be canonized not as a mere "relic" but as a genuine miracle of great import.



John

 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
In the Talmud, Yoma 39a,b we read:

Furthermore, during his tenure as High Priest, the strip of crimson wool that was tied to the head of the goat that was sent to Azazel turned white, indicating that the sins of the people had been forgiven, as it is written: “Though your sins be as crimson, they shall be white as snow” (Isaiah 1:18). . . .

The Sages taught: During the tenure of Shimon HaTzaddik, the lot for God always arose in the High Priest’s right hand; after his death, it occurred only occasionally; but during the forty years prior to the destruction of the Second Temple, the lot for God did not arise in the High Priest’s right hand at all. So too, the strip of crimson wool that was tied to the head of the goat that was sent to Azazel did not turn white, and the westernmost lamp of the candelabrum did not burn continually.

And the doors of the Sanctuary opened by themselves as a sign that they would soon be opened by enemies, until Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai scolded them. He said to the Sanctuary: Sanctuary, Sanctuary, why do you frighten yourself with these signs? I know about you that you will ultimately be destroyed, and Zechariah, son of Ido, has already prophesied concerning you: “Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars” (Zechariah 11:1), Lebanon being an appellation for the Temple.

Rabbi Yitzḥak ben Tavlai said: Why is the Temple called Lebanon [Levanon]? Because it whitens [malbin] the Jewish people’s sins, alluded to by the root lavan, meaning white.​

This is the Talmud. Written by orthodox Jews with no input from Christianity. "Forty years prior to the destruction of the second temple" is 30 CE. The door of the temple is the curtain said to be torn around 30 CE when an eclipse and earthquake reeked some havoc. The Gospels claim that another historical catastrophe occurred simultaneous to the eclipse and earthquake. And the Gospels mention the self-same opening of the door, or veil, at the self-same time. . . So it's nice to see history faithfully recorded by Jews and Christians alike.

The strip of crimson wool, tied to scapegoat, turns white when the sins are forgiven. And once again the Gospels and Apostolic Writings parallel the Talmud. Reference Hebrews 10:1-10:

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Heb 10:1–10). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.​

The Jewish writer of the book of Hebrews justifies the veracity of the Talmud, Yoma 39a-b. ------The crimson wool stopped turning white around 30 CE (precisely as the Talmud records) because once the final offering (די ) signified that "it is finished" (dalet-yod) the point of the yearly offerings faded away. The crimson, signifying man's sins, had permanently faded away (Isaiah 1:18) leaving the blood, represented by the crimson (representing man's sin) white as snow.

EXHIBITS 1, 2, AND 3:


fetch






Exhibit 1 is the Shroud of Turin as it would be seen by the naked eye. It is in fact similar to a photographic negative. Note that the areas around the eyes, which in a normal image would be dark, are instead light. This anomaly carries throughout the image manifesting it as a negative image.

Exhibit 2 is the Shroud of Turin marked up to show where the blood is on exhibit 1. Notice that in exhibit 1, and exhibit 2, the blood is dark, crimson, as it would be if one were looking at an actual image of what's being depicted in the image rather than the negative image in exhibit 1. . . . . That's problematic since every other element of the image inverts dark for light, and light for dark, as is the case with a negative image.

Exhibit 3 is the Shroud of Turin as it appears on a photographic negative before the image is developed to produce a positive image. And since the original image on the Shroud is already a negative, the photographic negative transforms it into a positive image.

Someone familiar with the scientific method, someone who knows the methodology of modern science, sees a glaring problem with exhibit three which points out the same glaring problem in exhibit 1. The blood on exhibit 3, since it's a positive image, should show the blood, which is crimson, as dark, and not light, since every other dark area is dark and every other light area is light. The blood on exhibit 3 should be dark, and not light.

This means the blood on exhibit 1, which is the negative image before its transformed by the photographic negative, should be white, as all other dark elements on the image are white (or light). But its clearly not. The crimson blood on the cloth of the final scapegoat in the sacrificial system, the "it is finished, complete," i.e., the final legitimate sacrifice, shows that the crimson on the wool, just as it had every Yom Kippur, turned white as snow in order to signify that the blood of this sacrifice was received by God as the final payment required to return man to his original endowment as co-partner with God.

If a scientist of any repute and care examined the three exhibits he could say clear as day that for the images to be correct the blood stains on exhibit 3 should be on exhibit 1, and the blood stains on exhibit 1, should be on exhibit 3. . . The blood stains are the only elements of the images that are inverted. All the other elements are negative on the negative, and positive on the positive. The blood is out of sync with the rest of the image.

If the Catholic Church had the scientific IQ to point out the anomaly above, the Shroud would be canonized not as a mere "relic" but as a genuine miracle of great import.



John


A clever selective blue smoke and mirrors assessment and distortion of the evidence to justify an agenda, and neglecting the evidence that clearly demonstrates that the shroud is a later construct of a burial shroud.

This does not represent the science of the shroud.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
A clever selective blue smoke and mirrors assessment and distortion of the evidence to justify an agenda, and neglecting the evidence that clearly demonstrates that the shroud is a later construct of a burial shroud.

This does not represent the science of the shroud.

. . . To do the science you kinda need the Exhibits (1, 2, 3) which didn't show up for some reason in the thread starter. . . It's kinda hard to dissect the frog, or in the case the lamb, without the specimen.



John

 

siti

Well-Known Member
To do the science you kinda need the Exhibits (1, 2, 3) which didn't show up for some reason in the thread starter. . . It's kinda hard to dissect the frog, or in the case the lamb, without the specimen.
I still couldn't see No 1 - I guess I'll just have to wait for Judgement Day when the frog...er I mean...lamb opens the scroll and all is revealed...but that's OK - I'm happy to wait.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Not this old chestnut. It was thought to be a fraud when first presented. It was carbon dated and proven to be a fraud. Last week I came across an article where it was analyzed with forensic medicine and shown to be a fraud again.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Not this old chestnut. It was thought to be a fraud when first presented. It was carbon dated and proven to be a fraud. Last week I came across an article where it was analyzed with forensic medicine and shown to be a fraud again.
You should have put this in a spoiler - you ruined the sense of suspense for me! :D
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Not this old chestnut. It was thought to be a fraud when first presented. It was carbon dated and proven to be a fraud. Last week I came across an article where it was analyzed with forensic medicine and shown to be a fraud again.

Can you cite the article.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
In the Talmud, Yoma 39a,b we read:

Furthermore, during his tenure as High Priest, the strip of crimson wool that was tied to the head of the goat that was sent to Azazel turned white, indicating that the sins of the people had been forgiven, as it is written: “Though your sins be as crimson, they shall be white as snow” (Isaiah 1:18). . . .

The Sages taught: During the tenure of Shimon HaTzaddik, the lot for God always arose in the High Priest’s right hand; after his death, it occurred only occasionally; but during the forty years prior to the destruction of the Second Temple, the lot for God did not arise in the High Priest’s right hand at all. So too, the strip of crimson wool that was tied to the head of the goat that was sent to Azazel did not turn white, and the westernmost lamp of the candelabrum did not burn continually.

And the doors of the Sanctuary opened by themselves as a sign that they would soon be opened by enemies, until Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai scolded them. He said to the Sanctuary: Sanctuary, Sanctuary, why do you frighten yourself with these signs? I know about you that you will ultimately be destroyed, and Zechariah, son of Ido, has already prophesied concerning you: “Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars” (Zechariah 11:1), Lebanon being an appellation for the Temple.

Rabbi Yitzḥak ben Tavlai said: Why is the Temple called Lebanon [Levanon]? Because it whitens [malbin] the Jewish people’s sins, alluded to by the root lavan, meaning white.​

This is the Talmud. Written by orthodox Jews with no input from Christianity. "Forty years prior to the destruction of the second temple" is 30 CE. The door of the temple is the curtain said to be torn around 30 CE when an eclipse and earthquake reeked some havoc. The Gospels claim that another historical catastrophe occurred simultaneous to the eclipse and earthquake. And the Gospels mention the self-same opening of the door, or veil, at the self-same time. . . So it's nice to see history faithfully recorded by Jews and Christians alike.

The strip of crimson wool, tied to scapegoat, turns white when the sins are forgiven. And once again the Gospels and Apostolic Writings parallel the Talmud. Reference Hebrews 10:1-10:

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Heb 10:1–10). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.​

The Jewish writer of the book of Hebrews justifies the veracity of the Talmud, Yoma 39a-b. ------The crimson wool stopped turning white around 30 CE (precisely as the Talmud records) because once the final offering (די ) signified that "it is finished" (dalet-yod) the point of the yearly offerings faded away. The crimson, signifying man's sins, had permanently faded away (Isaiah 1:18) leaving the blood, represented by the crimson (representing man's sin) white as snow.

EXHIBITS 1, 2, AND 3:

https://ascientifictouroftheshroudofturin.blogspot.com/


fetch






Exhibit 1 is the Shroud of Turin as it would be seen by the naked eye. It is in fact similar to a photographic negative. Note that the areas around the eyes, which in a normal image would be dark, are instead light. This anomaly carries throughout the image manifesting it as a negative image.

Exhibit 2 is the Shroud of Turin marked up to show where the blood is on exhibit 1. Notice that in exhibit 1, and exhibit 2, the blood is dark, crimson, as it would be if one were looking at an actual image of what's being depicted in the image rather than the negative image in exhibit 1. . . . . That's problematic since every other element of the image inverts dark for light, and light for dark, as is the case with a negative image.

Exhibit 3 is the Shroud of Turin as it appears on a photographic negative before the image is developed to produce a positive image. And since the original image on the Shroud is already a negative, the photographic negative transforms it into a positive image.

Someone familiar with the scientific method, someone who knows the methodology of modern science, sees a glaring problem with exhibit three which points out the same glaring problem in exhibit 1. The blood on exhibit 3, since it's a positive image, should show the blood, which is crimson, as dark, and not light, since every other dark area is dark and every other light area is light. The blood on exhibit 3 should be dark, and not light.

This means the blood on exhibit 1, which is the negative image before its transformed by the photographic negative, should be white, as all other dark elements on the image are white (or light). But its clearly not. The crimson blood on the cloth of the final scapegoat in the sacrificial system, the "it is finished, complete," i.e., the final legitimate sacrifice, shows that the crimson on the wool, just as it had every Yom Kippur, turned white as snow in order to signify that the blood of this sacrifice was received by God as the final payment required to return man to his original endowment as co-partner with God.

If a scientist of any repute and care examined the three exhibits he could say clear as day that for the images to be correct the blood stains on exhibit 3 should be on exhibit 1, and the blood stains on exhibit 1, should be on exhibit 3. . . The blood stains are the only elements of the images that are inverted. All the other elements are negative on the negative, and positive on the positive. The blood is out of sync with the rest of the image.

If the Catholic Church had the scientific IQ to point out the anomaly above, the Shroud would be canonized not as a mere "relic" but as a genuine miracle of great import.



John


In a well-attended press conference on October 13, Cardinal Ballestrero announced the official results, i.e. that radio-carbon testing dated the shroud to a date of 1260-1390 AD, with 95% confidence. The official and complete report on the experiment was published in Nature.[1] The uncalibrated dates from the individual laboratories, with 1-sigma errors (68% confidence), were as follows:

  • Tucson: 646 ± 31 years;
  • Oxford: 750 ± 30 years;
  • Zürich: 676 ± 24 years old;
  • the unweighted mean was "691 ± 31 years", which corresponds to calibrated ages of "1273 - 1288 AD" with 68% confidence, and "1262 - 1312, 1353 - 1384 AD cal" with 95% confidence.
As reported in Nature, Professor Bray of the Instituto di Metrologia 'G. Colonetti', Turin, "confirmed that the results of the three laboratories were mutually compatible, and that, on the evidence submitted, none of the mean results was questionable."[1]
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
If the Catholic Church had the scientific IQ to point out the anomaly above, the Shroud would be canonized not as a mere "relic" but as a genuine miracle of great import.

The Body Image
Scientists seem to agree that the body-image was not produced by contact between the Shroud and the body enveloped it Nevertheless, the face and the hands of the image must stand out with particular emphasis-a fact not totally explicable by the height of those parts of a reclining body, for the chest seems to have lesser delineation even though that should have been as elevated as the hands which lie over the genital area. On the-other-hand, in the back image, the buttocks are only faintly outlined. It has been noted that the navel of the Shroud image is either absent or almost invisible, en element of modesty or theology? it is noted that the body imaged in the Shroud is portrayed as relaxed in death, but in a relaxed position a man's joined hands will not cover his genitals if he lies on his back. Either the body has to be tilted forward and the arms stretched downward, or the elbows have to be propped up on the side and the wrists drawn together to hold the hands in place over the genital area. In the Shroud image also, the right arm is exceedingly long and the fingers of the right hand almost disproportionate in order to allow the modest covering. Such a feature would be more understandable if the Shroud were an artistic production reflecting the interests of another era.

Blood of the Shroud
The blood images are, unlike the body-image, true stains and appear as a positive, not a negative, in a photo. They are distinct and not smeared. If one examines them closely, it becomes extremely difficult to understand how they were made in any theory of the origins of the Shroud. There seems to be no great distinction in terms of time(dying) or of preservation (smearing) in the blood produced by the scourging, by the crown of thorns, by the nail wounds, and by the wound in the side. Is it not understood that a certain separation of blood from serum has begun in various stains, and certainly in the wound in the side. Obviously, no matter who the subject of the image was, the scourging would have had to take place before he was crucified. The wounds on the head and the arms show a downward flow of blood, almost as if the Shroud were stained when the figure was still erect on the cross or at least held up vertically. Yet the blood from the sound on the side and seemingly that of the feet show a sideward flow as it the body was lying prone. Could be quite intelligible from an artist who was attempting to catch in one picture the various moments of Jesus' suffering. It is very difficult to understand in a shroud that preserves the image of Jesus' dead body.

Those who argue that the Shroud is a supernaturally produced image of the dead body of Jesus of Nazareth must really posit two distinct miracles; the transmission of the body-image by some form of energy to the Shroud as a negative picture, and the positive reproduction of blood wounds made when he was scourged, crowned with thorns, nailed to the cross, and after his death, with all those wounds preserved almost as they were made.

Source
'Biblical Exegesis and Church Doctrine'
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
. . . To do the science you kinda need the Exhibits (1, 2, 3) which didn't show up for some reason in the thread starter. . . It's kinda hard to dissect the frog, or in the case the lamb, without the specimen.



John


FACT 1.

The Talmud claims that on Yom Kippur, a scapegoat is loaded up with the sins of Israel so they can be disposed of through the death of the scapegoat. ------In order to determine if the sins have been received by God and thus disposed of so far as Israel is concerned, a crimson cloth is tied (literally and figuratively) to the scapegoat such that if the crimson turns white as snow, the sins are forgiven, and if it doesn't they ain't. These are all facts, not true or false mind you, science doesn't deal with truth, only recognizable facts. If needed I can post the Talmud and Jewish sages stating everything just said in order to prove that they have in "fact" been stated.

FACT 2.

The Gospels claim that Jesus of Nazareth is the final, true, actual, scapegoat for man's sins who will render all the ritual performance thereafter null and void (Hebrews 10:1-10). ------Once again, the statements found in the Gospels are neither true nor false in this examination since science doesn't deal in truth, only recognizable facts, and I present exhibit 1, Hebrews 10:1-10, as proof that the Gospels do in "fact" claim that Jesus is the final scapegoat rendering all further sacrifices null and void.

FACT 3.

According to the Talmud, the ritual of the Yom Kippur scapegoat, whereby the crimson on the cloth turned white as snow, stopped functioning, stopped turning white as snow, at precisely the time the Gospels claim their scapegoat turned the ritual into reality by dying once and for all in place of all the former rituals and representations. The Talmud claims that in CE 30, until the destruction of the temple, in CE 70, the crimson cloth on the ritual scapegoat never again turned white. . . This is factual, not necessarily true or false, but it's factual that the Talmud claims that at precisely the time the Gospels claim Jesus fulfilled, and thus ended, the ritual of Yom Kippur, the ritual of Yom Kippur never again, to this very day, functioned properly.

FACT 4.

In no early or Middle Age Christian text, even to include the Gospels and Apostolic Writings themselves, is the burial cloth of Jesus, literally, or figuratively tied to the cloth tied to the Yom Kippur scapegoat despite the fact that the relationship is undeniable if, as the Gospels claim, Jesus is the final scapegoat for man's sins, such that the Gospels are clearly referencing Jewish concepts related to Yom Kippur and the Yom Kippur scapegoat (who takes away the sins of the Israelite world).

FACT 5.

Hundreds of years ago a religious relic was designed, discovered, or forged, that claims to be the burial cloth of the Christian scapegoat whose death, more specifically whose blood, is said to cleanse the entire world of its sins. For hundreds of years this burial cloth roamed Europe, was examined, written about, talked about, experimented on, argued over, by Jews, Christians, atheists, and agnostics, and in all this arguing, examining, exegeting, even cheating, not one person mentioned the most obvious anomaly there could possibly be, and which, the anomaly, so justifies the Gospel's rendition of the finality of Jesus' death as the end of the sacrificial rituals of Israel that the odds of it being ignored, by all the foregoing, are, quite literally, scientifically, astronomical.

The primary determinant, in the ritual system, for whether the sins had been forgiven was that the blood of the cloth associated with the scapegoat, the crimson (in Isaiah's parlance), which represents the sins of Israel, must turn "white as snow.". . Ergo, if the Gospels account is true, if Jesus is the actual scapegoat, if the Gospel account turns out to have some facts supporting the claim that Jesus' sacrifice puts all other's to an end, then it stands to reason that because of the incredible parallels between the two accounts, the cloth, with crimson, representing sin, tied to Jesus's death, must, if all the parallels hold, turn "white as snow" at the death of Jesus of Nazareth.

FACT 6.

Its exalted position is due to the image imprinted on the cloth: the shadowy full-size outline of a Christ-like figure. Bloodstains in the fabric appear to be consistent with the injuries sustained during crucifixion. The markings have led to claims that the shroud was Christ’s burial cloth. However, from the earliest days of its existence the shroud has divided onlookers, and over the years it has been both denounced and venerated—even by those within the Catholic Church—in equal measure.

The debate widened towards the end of the 19th century thanks to the efforts of amateur photographer Secondo Pia. To celebrate the 400th anniversary of Torino Cathedral, an exhibition was organised in the city that was to include the shroud among its exhibits. Pia was permitted to photograph the relic, the first person ever given this privilege. On 28 May 1898, he set up a studio in the cathedral, experimenting with powerful electric light bulbs, so as to attain the strongest image.

On developing the first of his plates, Pia was astonished to see an image on the shroud that was not visible to the naked eye: a negative image of the face of Christ, that until then had remained undetected. The revelation of the hidden face immediately amplified the mystery surrounding the shroud, as no one was able to account for its existence. At first Pia was accused of manufacturing the image, and the shroud was swiftly returned to the vault in the royal chapel.

Pia’s photographs succeeded in renewing interest in the controversial relic, and paved the way for others to investigate its origins and authenticity. Further photographs were taken in the 1930s, which confirmed, much to the elderly Pia’s relief, that the spectral image of a face was present.

https://www.historychannel.com.au/th...-photographed/

The image on the shroud, which had been around for hundreds of years, wasn't one time hypothesized to be a negative image, rather than a positive image, until the end of the 19th century when a photographer happened to notice that the image on his photographic negative was in fact a positive image meaning that the shroud itself was a negative image.

This discovery renewed interest, argumentation, experimentation, theorizing, scientifically, Jewishly, and Christianly, even atheists and agnostic scientists got into the act, and yet in all this, even after it was discovered the shroud was a negative image, seemingly created by some strange, unknown, process, no one, not one person, noticed the most obvious relationship between the cloth, the purported image on the cloth, and the fact that he was said, in the Gospels, to be the final scapegoat for mankind's sins, such that his blood, the crimson on the cloth, was the ransom for mankind's sins, and the redeeming elixer that must, for the parallels to hold true, turn white at his death.

Even after the first photograph of the shroud revealed it to be a negative image, not one allegedly scientific thinker, Jewish, Christian, or otherwise noticed that if the blood on the photographic negative is a positive image, like the rest of the image, then there is a huge anomaly since the blood on the photographic negative (by which the negative on the shroud became positive) was in fact, and it is factual, "white as snow."




John

 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
And yet the shroud has been shown to be a hoax time after time. Why bring up this old failed story?

. . . And I'm sure you're sure President Trump has been proven to have colluded with the Russians. Ideology colors beliefs, and in the weak mind, belief is allowed to run roughshod over facts, and scientific realities. One man's facts and truth is another man's toilet paper. The key is to know the difference between toilet paper and genuine science.



John
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
. . . And I'm sure you're sure President Trump has been proven to have colluded with the Russians. Ideology colors beliefs, and in the weak mind, belief is allowed to run roughshod over facts, and scientific realities. One man's facts and truth is another man's toilet paper. The key is to know the difference between toilet paper and genuine science.



John
Yes, your ideology has colored your beliefs. You do not understand the sciences, that much is clear. Why do you have a problem with reality?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Yes, your ideology has colored your beliefs. You do not understand the sciences, that much is clear. Why do you have a problem with reality?

. . . A scientific truism I've noticed over the years is that anyone with a message count anywhere near 10,000 no matter how long they've been here, is here for boredom sake alone. I try never to respond to anyone with a message count suggesting why they're here, and why they're bothering to respond to me in the first place.

If you're bored, may I suggest a rerun of Rosanne?



John
 
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