Seeing God (Face To Face)

It can be confusing when God communicates with people. The word Hebrew and Greek words translated as angel means messenger. Much like Jesus was the Word, or spokesperson for God. When angels come down to earth and take the shape of men sometimes they are referred to by the form they take, men, or what they are originally, angels, or who they represent, Jehovah, God.

Genesis 32:30 - I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time.

Who has seen God and what does it mean to see God 'face to face.?'

Did Abraham? Genesis 18:1-3 Note that Jehovah god is mistaken for one of the three men. Was God a man or an angel in the form of a man who represented God?

Did Moses? Numbers 12:8 - Note that it is an apperance of God that represents God to Moses.

Did Jacob? Genesis 32:30 - Note Hosea 12:2-4 points out that it was an angel who represented God that grappled with Jacob.

Did Manoah and his wife? Judges 13:2-22 - Note that the angel of Jehovah God is called Jehovah God.

Did Gideon? Judges 6:11-23 - Later Jehovah's angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian. Then Jehovah's angel appeared to him and said to him: "Jehovah is with you, you valiant, mighty one." At this Gideon said to him: "Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, and where are all his wonderful acts that our fathers related to us, saying, 'Was it not out of Egypt that Jehovah brought us up?' And now Jehovah has deserted us, and he gives us into the palm of Midian." Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: "Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian's palm. Do I not send you?" In turn he said to him: "Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel? Look! My thousand is the least in Manasseh, and I am the smallest in my father's house." But Jehovah said to him: "Because I shall prove to be with you, and you will certainly strike down Midian as if one man."

At this he said to him: "If, now, I have found favor in your eyes, you must also perform a sign for me that you are the one speaking with me. Do not, please, move away from here until I come to you and I have brought out my gift and set it before you." Accordingly he said: "I, for my part, shall keep sitting here until you return." And Gideon went in and proceeded to make ready a kid of the goats and an ephah of flour as unfermented cakes. The meat he put in the basket, and the broth he put in the cooking pot, after which he brought it out to him under the big tree and served it.

The angel of the [true] God now said to him: "Take the meat and the unfermented cakes and set them on the big rock there, and pour out the broth." At that he did so. Then Jehovah's angel thrust out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unfermented cakes, and fire began to ascend out of the rock and to consume the meat and the unfermented cakes. As for Jehovah's angel, he vanished from his sight. Consequently Gideon realized that it was Jehovah's angel.

At once Gideon said: "Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah's angel face to face!" But Jehovah said to him: "Peace be yours. Do not fear. You will not die." So Gideon built an altar there to Jehovah, and it continues to be called Jehovah-shalom down to this day. It is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

No man has seen God but a few have seen representations of him. The angels are, in a sense, at least to the people they deal with, the same as God.

RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha said:

It can be confusing when God communicates with people. The word Hebrew and Greek words translated as angel means messenger. Much like Jesus was the Word, or spokesperson for God. When angels come down to earth and take the shape of men sometimes they are referred to by the form they take, men, or what they are originally, angels, or who they represent, Jehovah, God.

Genesis 32:30 - I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time.

Who has seen God and what does it mean to see God 'face to face.?'

Did Abraham? Genesis 18:1-3 Note that Jehovah god is mistaken for one of the three men. Was God a man or an angel in the form of a man who represented God?

Did Moses? Numbers 12:8 - Note that it is an apperance of God that represents God to Moses.

Did Jacob? Genesis 32:30 - Note Hosea 12:2-4 points out that it was an angel who represented God that grappled with Jacob.

Did Manoah and his wife? Judges 13:2-22 - Note that the angel of Jehovah God is called Jehovah God.

Did Gideon? Judges 6:11-23 - Later Jehovah's angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian. Then Jehovah's angel appeared to him and said to him: "Jehovah is with you, you valiant, mighty one." At this Gideon said to him: "Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, and where are all his wonderful acts that our fathers related to us, saying, 'Was it not out of Egypt that Jehovah brought us up?' And now Jehovah has deserted us, and he gives us into the palm of Midian." Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: "Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian's palm. Do I not send you?" In turn he said to him: "Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel? Look! My thousand is the least in Manasseh, and I am the smallest in my father's house." But Jehovah said to him: "Because I shall prove to be with you, and you will certainly strike down Midian as if one man."

At this he said to him: "If, now, I have found favor in your eyes, you must also perform a sign for me that you are the one speaking with me. Do not, please, move away from here until I come to you and I have brought out my gift and set it before you." Accordingly he said: "I, for my part, shall keep sitting here until you return." And Gideon went in and proceeded to make ready a kid of the goats and an ephah of flour as unfermented cakes. The meat he put in the basket, and the broth he put in the cooking pot, after which he brought it out to him under the big tree and served it.

The angel of the [true] God now said to him: "Take the meat and the unfermented cakes and set them on the big rock there, and pour out the broth." At that he did so. Then Jehovah's angel thrust out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unfermented cakes, and fire began to ascend out of the rock and to consume the meat and the unfermented cakes. As for Jehovah's angel, he vanished from his sight. Consequently Gideon realized that it was Jehovah's angel.

At once Gideon said: "Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah's angel face to face!" But Jehovah said to him: "Peace be yours. Do not fear. You will not die." So Gideon built an altar there to Jehovah, and it continues to be called Jehovah-shalom down to this day. It is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

No man has seen God but a few have seen representations of him. The angels are, in a sense, at least to the people they deal with, the same as God.

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There are manifestations of God. God Himself cannot be seen or we will die. This is why there is the "Shekinah" cloud. Many people confuse this cloud for being the "glory cloud of God", but it's actual purpose seems to be the hiding of God's glory. (Exodus 20:21, 2 Samuel 22:12, 1 Kings 8:12) In other words the cloud is there to protect people so that they won't die by looking on God's unveiled glory.

But God does manifest Himself in various ways. These manifestations are veiling the glory of God. They are revelations of God rather than us seeing God unveiled.

They are shown to teach us things about God's nature.

• The holy Spirit descended like a dove. That is one manifestation of God. (John 1:32)
• Exodus 24:10 Is another manifestation of God. It's highly symbolic showing the floor under His feet as the color of "sapphire." In other words the color of the sky or heaven.
• In Ezekiel 1:1, Ezekiel says he saw "visions of God". So this is the best way to understand a manifestation of God rather than seeing the unveiled God Himself. They are like visions or revelations. Ezekiel describes His thrown as being again blue in color. The heaven is God's throne and the earth His footstool. So again it's highly symbolic.
• There are many other manifestations of God. The "Ancient of Days", the Lord that Isaiah saw in the temple etc.

This has a lot to do with Jesus.

RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha said:

It can be confusing when God communicates with people. The word Hebrew and Greek words translated as angel means messenger. Much like Jesus was the Word, or spokesperson for God. When angels come down to earth and take the shape of men sometimes they are referred to by the form they take, men, or what they are originally, angels, or who they represent, Jehovah, God.

Genesis 32:30 - I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time.

Who has seen God and what does it mean to see God 'face to face.?'

Did Abraham? Genesis 18:1-3 Note that Jehovah god is mistaken for one of the three men. Was God a man or an angel in the form of a man who represented God?

Did Moses? Numbers 12:8 - Note that it is an apperance of God that represents God to Moses.

Did Jacob? Genesis 32:30 - Note Hosea 12:2-4 points out that it was an angel who represented God that grappled with Jacob.

Did Manoah and his wife? Judges 13:2-22 - Note that the angel of Jehovah God is called Jehovah God.

Did Gideon? Judges 6:11-23 - Later Jehovah's angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian. Then Jehovah's angel appeared to him and said to him: "Jehovah is with you, you valiant, mighty one." At this Gideon said to him: "Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, and where are all his wonderful acts that our fathers related to us, saying, 'Was it not out of Egypt that Jehovah brought us up?' And now Jehovah has deserted us, and he gives us into the palm of Midian." Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: "Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian's palm. Do I not send you?" In turn he said to him: "Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel? Look! My thousand is the least in Manasseh, and I am the smallest in my father's house." But Jehovah said to him: "Because I shall prove to be with you, and you will certainly strike down Midian as if one man."

At this he said to him: "If, now, I have found favor in your eyes, you must also perform a sign for me that you are the one speaking with me. Do not, please, move away from here until I come to you and I have brought out my gift and set it before you." Accordingly he said: "I, for my part, shall keep sitting here until you return." And Gideon went in and proceeded to make ready a kid of the goats and an ephah of flour as unfermented cakes. The meat he put in the basket, and the broth he put in the cooking pot, after which he brought it out to him under the big tree and served it.

The angel of the [true] God now said to him: "Take the meat and the unfermented cakes and set them on the big rock there, and pour out the broth." At that he did so. Then Jehovah's angel thrust out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unfermented cakes, and fire began to ascend out of the rock and to consume the meat and the unfermented cakes. As for Jehovah's angel, he vanished from his sight. Consequently Gideon realized that it was Jehovah's angel.

At once Gideon said: "Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah's angel face to face!" But Jehovah said to him: "Peace be yours. Do not fear. You will not die." So Gideon built an altar there to Jehovah, and it continues to be called Jehovah-shalom down to this day. It is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

No man has seen God but a few have seen representations of him. The angels are, in a sense, at least to the people they deal with, the same as God.

Click to expand...

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

These days, if one is going to quote the Bible, then one should be prepared to do lots of research. To me, because he is God and says so, then he can take any form he likes. Was Jesus God? I doubt it. A lot of what is said about Jesus is metaphorical, but that does not mean it is not literally true. "I and the Father are one", and in my opinion that only means that Jesus and God agree. There are other times when Jesus is plainly talking to God. I doubt that means that Jesus is talking to himself.

RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha said:

No man has seen God but a few have seen representations of him. The angels are, in a sense, at least to the people they deal with, the same as God.

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The Prophets can be representations of God as well, for example in Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses concerning Aaron, “...And thou shall be to him instead of God.”

danieldemol said:

The Prophets can be representations of God as well, for example in Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses concerning Aaron, “...And thou shall be to him instead of God.”

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That interpretation extends a bit too far for me.

danieldemol said:

The Prophets can be representations of God as well, for example in Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses concerning Aaron, “...And thou shall be to him instead of God.”

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I figured that's the crux of the problem.

It inevitably and always falls down to a human being as being a / the representative.

Nowhere Man said:

I figured that's the crux of the problem.

It inevitably and always falls down to a human being as being a / the representative.

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I've been mulling over the idea that the Creator, in the far distant past, visited us and perhaps lived among us. Perhaps he still may, but I have seen little overt evidence of that, and it is puzzling as to why. The Zoroastrians had an image of Ahura Mazda, so he would have to have visited or else they would have no idea what he looked like.

I've had experiences in which things happened that I could not explain. So far, all I can do is to thank God and move on.

Ellen Brown said:

I've been mulling over the idea that the Creator, in the far distant past, visited us and perhaps lived among us. Perhaps he still may, but I have seen little overt evidence of that, and it is puzzling as to why. The Zoroastrians had an image of Ahura Mazda, so he would have to have visited or else they would have no idea what he looked like.

I've had experiences in which things happened that I could not explain. So far, all I can do is to thank God and move on.

Click to expand...

If I was still theist I would have probably have gone with deism. Whereas a God came along, made everything and moved away out of sight sound and view and letting the creation on its own. It's a step up I think from monotheism with the view of an ever-present creator still being around. Deism would be more likely conceptually.

There's still nothing to convince me and affirm that any God exists, even one that is no longer around or has moved on, but if I was still a theist that's how I would view it.

Nowhere Man said:

If I was still theist I would have probably have gone with deism. Whereas a God came along, made everything and moved away out of sight sound and view and letting the creation on its own. It's a step up I think from monotheism with the view of an ever-present creator still being around. Deism would be more likely conceptually.

There's still nothing to convince me and affirm that any God exists, even one that is no longer around or has moved on, but if I was still a theist that's how I would view it.

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I write very strange post apocalyptic, distopian, radical feminist Science Fiction, so it would follow that openness should be in my skill set. I've often mulled over the idea that humans are just a thought circulating in his brain. "The Foundation Trilogy" by Issac Asimov, alludes somewhat to that idea. I'll have to read it again, but I don't think the later protagonists ever found the "founders", perhaps as it should be?

Could it be that Ahura Mazda was Jesus?

Ellen Brown said:

I write very strange post apocalyptic, distopian, radical feminist Science Fiction, so it would follow that openness should be in my skill set. I've often mulled over the idea that humans are just a thought circulating in his brain. "The Foundation Trilogy" by Issac Asimov, alludes somewhat to that idea. I'll have to read it again, but I don't think the later protagonists ever found the "founders", perhaps as it should be?

Could it be that Ahura Mazda was Jesus?

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I suppose philosophically, If you're sleeping and dreaming a dream, what other reality is there at that particular moment?

One doesn't know until they wake up.

Then you go to sleep again.

danieldemol said:

The Prophets can be representations of God as well, for example in Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses concerning Aaron, “...And thou shall be to him instead of God.”

Click to expand...

Ellen Brown said:

That interpretation extends a bit too far for me.

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The NWT reads "And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him."

The word God simply means anyone or anything mighty or venerated. Moses was appointed to be Mighty to Pharaoh my All Mighty.

RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha said:

It can be confusing when God communicates with people. The word Hebrew and Greek words translated as angel means messenger. Much like Jesus was the Word, or spokesperson for God. When angels come down to earth and take the shape of men sometimes they are referred to by the form they take, men, or what they are originally, angels, or who they represent, Jehovah, God.

Genesis 32:30 - I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time.

Who has seen God and what does it mean to see God 'face to face.?'

Did Abraham? Genesis 18:1-3 Note that Jehovah god is mistaken for one of the three men. Was God a man or an angel in the form of a man who represented God?

Did Moses? Numbers 12:8 - Note that it is an apperance of God that represents God to Moses.

Did Jacob? Genesis 32:30 - Note Hosea 12:2-4 points out that it was an angel who represented God that grappled with Jacob.

Did Manoah and his wife? Judges 13:2-22 - Note that the angel of Jehovah God is called Jehovah God.

Did Gideon? Judges 6:11-23 - Later Jehovah's angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian. Then Jehovah's angel appeared to him and said to him: "Jehovah is with you, you valiant, mighty one." At this Gideon said to him: "Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, and where are all his wonderful acts that our fathers related to us, saying, 'Was it not out of Egypt that Jehovah brought us up?' And now Jehovah has deserted us, and he gives us into the palm of Midian." Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: "Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian's palm. Do I not send you?" In turn he said to him: "Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel? Look! My thousand is the least in Manasseh, and I am the smallest in my father's house." But Jehovah said to him: "Because I shall prove to be with you, and you will certainly strike down Midian as if one man."

At this he said to him: "If, now, I have found favor in your eyes, you must also perform a sign for me that you are the one speaking with me. Do not, please, move away from here until I come to you and I have brought out my gift and set it before you." Accordingly he said: "I, for my part, shall keep sitting here until you return." And Gideon went in and proceeded to make ready a kid of the goats and an ephah of flour as unfermented cakes. The meat he put in the basket, and the broth he put in the cooking pot, after which he brought it out to him under the big tree and served it.

The angel of the [true] God now said to him: "Take the meat and the unfermented cakes and set them on the big rock there, and pour out the broth." At that he did so. Then Jehovah's angel thrust out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unfermented cakes, and fire began to ascend out of the rock and to consume the meat and the unfermented cakes. As for Jehovah's angel, he vanished from his sight. Consequently Gideon realized that it was Jehovah's angel.

At once Gideon said: "Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah's angel face to face!" But Jehovah said to him: "Peace be yours. Do not fear. You will not die." So Gideon built an altar there to Jehovah, and it continues to be called Jehovah-shalom down to this day. It is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

No man has seen God but a few have seen representations of him. The angels are, in a sense, at least to the people they deal with, the same as God.

Click to expand...

realizing god as self is to know thyself as light rising within darkness.


2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.


Psalm 139:12
Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You.


love makes all things equal

Psalm 112:4
Unto the upright there arises light in the darkness; He is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous.

Ellen Brown said:

That interpretation extends a bit too far for me.

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Was that meant to imply you have an alternative interpretation of 4:16? If so what and why

danieldemol said:

Was that meant to imply you have an alternative interpretation of 4:16? If so what and why

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Mine is just the KJV. I don't choose to see Joshua as God, but as a sort of comparative representation.

Well, my only comment is that it would be pretty hard to see God face-to-face if He had no face. Other than that...

Ellen Brown said:

Mine is just the KJV. I don't choose to see Joshua as God, but as a sort of comparative representation.

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Well we were talking about Moses, and I quoted the KJV and then said Moses is representative of God, now you are oddly making straw men out of seeing Joshua as God.

You can't "see" God, period, it's impossible. God isn't a person, there is no face. God is an concept which quantifies the totality of reality - the thread that is contained throughout.

danieldemol said:

Well we were talking about Moses, and I quoted the KJV and then said Moses is representative of God, now you are oddly making straw men out of seeing Joshua as God.

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I made a mistake

It's all about the level of closeness to God. No one actually sees the face of God. "Face to face" in Moses case only describes the degree of closeness. It means that Moses had a direct dialogue exchange with God, which any other prophets never had this privilege. You won't be able to describe it in human terms if "face to face" is not used. It by no means says he actually saw the face of God, not necessarily so anyway.

I ever had a semi one for me to tell partially what it is. The trick actually lies on how do you know that He's God but not someone else. This is a bit tricky (at least for what happened to me).

Hawkins said:

It's all about the level of closeness to God. No one actually sees the face of God. "Face to face" in Moses case only describes the degree of closeness. It means that Moses had a direct dialogue exchange with God, which any other prophets never had this privilege. You won't be able to describe it in human terms if "face to face" is not used. It by no means says he actually saw the face of God, not necessarily so anyway.

I ever had a semi one for me to tell partially what it is. The trick actually lies on how do you know that He's God but not someone else. This is a bit tricky (at least for what happened to me).

Click to expand...

Not agreeing with your position at all.