Super Universe
Defender of God
ProfLogic said:
You are making a claim here. And your proof is?
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Jesus said my god my god why have you forsaken me?
- Thread starter ProfLogic
- Start date
You are making a claim here. And your proof is?
Super Universe
Defender of God
The spirit decides when it is time for it to leave, not the human mind. There are cases where a person is in extreme pain and hears something to the effect of "If you cannot take this, just say so and it will end."
Jesus was a man on the earth. Each and every one of us are capable of every single thing Jesus did in human form but we have to remember who we are. He was the only one who achieved full realization.
As the Son of God He had a task to perform. He could not commit suicide. The spirit cannot leave a person until the specific area of the brain where it resides dies. In great pain Jesus cries out to His spirit which is the human connection to God.
Jesus was a man on the earth. Each and every one of us are capable of every single thing Jesus did in human form but we have to remember who we are. He was the only one who achieved full realization.
As the Son of God He had a task to perform. He could not commit suicide. The spirit cannot leave a person until the specific area of the brain where it resides dies. In great pain Jesus cries out to His spirit which is the human connection to God.
Someone mentioned that god the father is more powerful than god the son which means they are 2 different god, so the one god belief is false. And if there is a self proclaimed god, that too is not a god, hope you can experience it and challenge it...Super Universe said:
doppleganger said:
If you have heard of people that gets tha calling, it might be more understandable. In this case Mary thought that she had the calling of a god, so she molded her son to follow the biblical path. Since the child only knew of the bible teachings, it was so easy for this self proclaimed god to convince the child that he is a god thus need to die. This is why in the end, the man realized that his life is final..... and now uttered "the words my god why have you forsaken me", meaning he thought that he was a god that would be resurrected with his physical body but he realized that it will not happen because for the physical body when dead can not be resurrected.
If you experience the calling you will know what I am talking about. No difference in jesus or what people called inspired by god authors. My recommendation challenge it and you will find out what it really is.
ProfLogic said:
But do you believe that people thought he was God during his life? Or do you think that concept came after his death? I'm under the impression that this theory came after the death of Christ.... "In the end it appears another sacrificed human for the sake of making others believe it was a god... a self proclaimed god" Can you please explain this to me again? I don't completely understand what you're trying to say. Do you not believe that it could have been another man in the image of Jesus? I'm sure you know by now that I don't believe Jesus was God, nor the son of God... So if all you're trying to prove to everyone is that Jesus wasn't God, then I agree, and so does a book written 1400 years ago.. Or are you trying to understand exactly the person on the cross may have said "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"... because apparantly Jesus knew what was gonna happen on the cross, and that he was gonna sacrifice his blood and go through pain for us... so why would he have asked such a question? Could it have been a man in Jesus' image who didn't understand why he was being punished? Again... the Quran states that it was an enemy of Jesus who got the image of Jesus put on him and received the crucifixtion.... Judas definately falls into this category (which some hadith mentions but not authentic enough to confirm) Do you believe this could be a possibility?
Peace and Blessings
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
ProfLogic said:
What a tragically beautiful way of understanding the story.
Ezzedean said:
Nice to hear form you. I am not sure if there is such a belief of the calling in your religion but in some bible based religions they believe that a few are selected by the self proclaimed god to spread its words. That in this case is jesus. It looks like jesus realized the pain of the crucifixion and his death is near and nothing had happened to his dying physical body. He thought that he would be eventually saved referring to his physical body. Well in the end he realized that he was just a man and that his existence will soon end, thus it was too late to realize that he was not a god. Today we see people with this complex called the god complex, you will notice they will spread the teachings of the bible because they think they are a god.
The bible claims of 1 god. If jesus says my god my god then it says that he is not a god because he is calling to his god, otherwise he would have said nothing and just say he is up on the cross for humanities sins. This then proves that he is not a god but just a man who was made believed to be a god. His purpose was to be an instrument of the self proclaimed god as others who allowed themselves to be. Today you can still see this.Ezzedean said:
Well anything is possible in religion.... its up to the one interpreting the scriptures. Judas again an instrument of the self proclained god because he let himself be one.. Peace and respect...Ezzedean said:
doppleganger said:
If it wanted to show its love for humanity, it would have sacrificed itself not its son... as it claims, son. Well as the bible says mankind is its children so jesus is not anything special... its just a man that thought he was a god due to some suggestive methods.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
You are blinded by the physical. The Kingdom of heaven is spiritual and so is the healing that Jesus provides. Somehow, I doubt that you are trying to devine what Jesus meant as much as you are only trying to find a way to discredit Christianity. Just a thought to ponder.
ProfLogic said:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Sorry for butting in Ezzedean, but I don't think very many people came to realize this during Jesus' lifetime. After all, having a deity dwell among them would have been a pretty difficult concept for anyone to accept. You may or may not be aware that, as an LDS Christian, I don't see Jesus as being simply a different manifestation of a single substance known as a Trinity. I see Him as being physically distinct from His Father and as being subordinate to His Father, to whom He referred as "my God."Ezzedean said:
Isaiah 9:6 prophesies of His coming: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
As a Muslim, you will probably say that He was merely "a son" and not "the Only Begotten Son." I think the other words used to describe Him in this verse imply that He would be something much more than either another of many sons, or even a prophet. In no other case was the coming of a prophet ever heralded in such a way.
I'm convinced that Jesus' mother, Mary, knew that she was going to give birth to the literal Son of God. In Luke 1 32-33, Gabriel told her that her child "...shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
Jesus was not described to her as "the Highest" but "the Son of the Highest." She was to conceive her child and yet remain a virgin. Was this the case with any of God's other prophets? There was undoubtedly something about Jesus Christ that was different. Regardless of who may or may not have understood who He was, His mother did.
When He was born, angels announced His arrival (in Luke 2:11), saying, "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."
I suspect that those who witnessed the "multitude of the heavenly host" recognized that the baby who had just been born was more than just a new prophet. Clearly, Simeon, who actually held the days old child in His arms knew that He was the Christ. He had received a spiritual promise that He would not die until He had seen his Savior. After blessing the baby, he is recorded in Luke 2:29-31 as having said, "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people..."
Fast forward thirty-four years. In Matthew 16:13-16, we see clear evidence that Simon Peter knew for sure who his friend, Jesus, was.
"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Peter knew for sure that Jesus was God's Son -- in an entirely different way than he (Peter) was also "a son of God." As to whether the other Apostles did or not, it's hard to say. I think they believed He was, but they didn't have the faith or understanding Peter had. I think that by the time they saw the resurrected Savior on Easter morning, all of them knew with a surety who He was. Thomas, having not been with the others when Jesus first appeared to them, doubted that what they told him could possibly be true. But even he, after touching the wounds in Jesus' hands, feet and sides, responded by saying "My Lord and my God!"
Obviously, if you don't accept the New Testament as scripture (and I realize that you don't), you will not find any of these verses convincing. It would be like your trying to prove certain things to me by appealing to the Quran. So my intention in providing you with these examples was not so much to convince you who I believe Jesus was as to simply answer your question concerning when Jesus came to be considered divine -- whether it was before, during or after His lifetime.
Personally, I can't accept that as even a remote possibility. Would "a man in Jesus' image" who was being put to death in the cruelest of all possible ways have appealed to God to forgive the men who were torturing Him? I believe that Jesus knew that He was going to have to experience unbearable pain, but I don't believe that He had stopped to consider, before it actually happened, that for a brief time, His Father actually was going to turn away from Him and allow Him to complete His mission on His own.
Here's how a living Apostle, M. Russel Ballard, put it:
Our Father in Heaven went through all that and more for in his case the hand was not stayed. He loved his Son, Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, and yet he allowed [Him] to descend from His place of glory and honor, where millions did Him homage, down to the earth, a condescension that is not within the power of man to conceive. He came to receive the insult, the abuse, and the crown of thorns. God heard the cry of His Son in that moment of great grief and agony in the garden when, it is said, the pores of his body opened and drops of blood stood upon him, and he cried out: Father, if Thou be willing remove his cup from me.
I ask you, what father and mother could stand by and listen to the cry of their [child] in distress, and not render aid and assistance? But in the case of our Father, the knife was not stayed, but it fell, and the lifes blood of His beloved Son went out. [The] Father looked on with great grief and agony over His Beloved Son, until there seems to have come a moment when even our Savior cried out in despair: My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?
In that hour I think I can see our dear Father behind the veil looking upon these dying struggles until even He could not endure it any longer, and like the mother who bids farewell to her dying child, has to be taken out of the room, so as not to look upon the last struggles, so He bowed His head, and hid in some part of His universe, He great heart almost breaking for the love that He had for His Son.
Anyway, that's my perspective. Maybe it will shed some light on the subject.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
ProfLogic said:
Go back and READ what I posted.
There's nothing puzzling about why Christ would refer to God as "God". Christ wasn't expecting anything in return...Christ was as fully HUMAN as he was DIVINE.
In the garden, He said "they will be done" not ONLY because He was submitting to the will of the Father in terms of what was about to take place within His life but to SHOW US how we are to submit to the will of God, regardless of circumstances.
Christ was our Redeemer...He was also the ultimate EXAMPLE of how one should live for God.
He was weeping BOTH for mankind and because He was also a HUMAN being like you and I.
NetDoc said:
The example of the evils of men in the bible are purely physical in the cases of Lot, Noah and even the NT jesus died because of the evils of men in the physical world. It can not be spirityual since man does exist in the spiritual world, he/she has no control in the spiritual world otherwise everyone would say they have been in that world and seen various awareness. Mankind is physical, thus I have to give an example that is tangible.
Discrediting Christianity is far from my objective, all I know is that there is an awareness in this world that wants mankind to think that there is this self procalimed god. Its objective is to sacrifice your lives towards it. I have seen and heard this presence and as I mentioned before, it is no god at all, it just proclaims that it is. Think of this idea, mankind had advanced so much since they found the pieces of scriptures which they decided to compile, under the supervision of a few men and cannonized around 300 years after the last known author (as they claimed) existed. In the 3rd century. Lets say people claim the history of the world is 5,000 years old but facts says the earth is billions years old.
This awareness wants to learn from mankind. How would it achieve this, by saying it is a procalimed god and open your hearts/mind to it. You can believe whatever religion you want, if it leads to the destruction of another human being due to religion, as seen in the crusades, the exploitation of the americas and asia and africa, and the separation of the states in the middle east, then that is not acceptable per what society defines as good. Let me ask you this, would you be a different person in nature without your belief in the bible?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Perhaps you should re-read the scriptures. You missed a lot.ProfLogic said:
Man is spiritual FIRST (made in God's image) and physical second.
As for your assessment of God: it merely sounds like willful ignorance. You obviously don't understand him and have seemed to have foisted your character traits on that which you admit you do not understand. No wonder you are ****** at him.
My belief system has no bearing on reality. Either it coincides with it or it does not. I'm betting that it does. Either way, my beliefs can not alter my existence on this mortal plain.Proflogic said:
It sounds like the author of those words, writing decades later and an eyewitness to nothing, was impregnating his tale with a reference to the 22nd Psalm as implied prooftext.ProfLogic said: