God talking

BilliardsBall · Jul 19, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
They are not isolated verses.

Unrighteous faith and deeds save. Christians are judged by their deeds not by their faith. The type of deeds jesus defines in the bible by describing the difference between righteous and unrighteous deeds.

The last verses, you would have to specific which topic you are referring to. The first one, I dont see the relations.

Not saying your belief is wrong. Its your faith. Im questioning you logic. I mean, my parent loves me, thats fine. However, she taught that love isnt an isolated emotion. She taught me things we do because of love; things we do out of love; what we do is love.

Thats how we are loved by our parents. Love (faith) isnt an isolated emotion. Actions speak louder than words.

Do you have any Bible verses where I can see that "Christians are judged by deeds, not by faith," as you wrote? Because even James 2's emphasis is on living versus dead faith.

Indeed, the Bible says hundreds of statements like this one instead, from Romans 3:

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 19, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
My salvation comes from the cross, but the cross is unable to pay for all of my sin.

I have to ask forgiveness over and again, despite the very clear Bible passages, even entire chapters, devoted to the fullness of the cross, for example, in Hebrews, where several chapters are devoted to saying things like "the priestly sacrifices, offerings and prayers could not save, otherwise they would not need to have been offered again and again for themselves and the people, instead, Jesus came, our great priest, to pay for sin, once for all."

The cross pays for your sins through faith and deeds. You are not judged by your faith but by your deeds. The OT and NT arent isolated verses in regards to living a devotional lifestyle. A person wouldnt ideally commit mass murders, go to church and say hes sorry, and go out ot commit another murder.

Do you think murderers should be pardoned in their salvation because they feel faith is all they need and god doesnt care otherwise?

If you never asked for forgiveness (nor did anything for christ) by what means are you saved beyond just saying you have faith? The NT says that not all who say Lord saved. It goes beyond that.

BilliardsBall said:
Also please help me understand: If my lifestyle, prayer, asking for forgiveness and treating other people (the points you made above) have to "show" I'm saved, how much is enough? How do I know I'm not in danger? Do you not see this is how non-Bible "churches" hold people in thrall, like religious slaves?

I didnt say show. (aka not righteous). Its a gesture of love you have for christ.

You dont. Thats why you have faith. To keep that relationship (any) there is more than just saying I love you. That would be weird all in the OT, deeds are correlated with faith and then it stops short by saying you dont need deeds anymore. All you need to do is believe

The bible works as a unit.

Sorry. I dont believe there is such thing as non-bible churches unless they are not christian, its not my place to say who is and who is not. A church is a body of people. You speak of the church, you speak of its people. Everyone is growing in christ. You have no more right-understanding than they do. No one is special.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 19, 2018

I try not to make up points in the bible. Usually its from what I studied and related to my experiences in the church.Weirdly enough, I never say a contradiction. But then, I must not be a real catholic if catholic as a unit arent real christians. Believe me. A lot of people believe this wholeheartedly.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God

1 Peter 1:17
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Ima give you the ful link; 10 Bible verses on deeds
It is not a catholic thing. All abrahamic religions have some sort of ritual involved. Bahai. Jewish. Muslim. All have deeds. Christianity is not specal.

James 2 talks about favoratism

My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious lord jesus christ, do not show favoratism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes

Its talking about dont judge who has faith in christ and who doesnt based on looks and status. It doesnt say only faith-and the bible works as a unit. Unless they contradict each other?

BilliardsBall said:
Do you have any Bible verses where I can see that "Christians are judged by deeds, not by faith," as you wrote? Because even James 2's emphasis is on living versus dead faith.

Indeed, the Bible says hundreds of statements like this one instead, from Romans 3:

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Righteous works are those practiced for the sake of works ot of christ (pride; boasting)

Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

The works I am speaking of is from and of god not of self. Since there is a difference, if you do not work (for got as from god Philippians 1:11) to what reason do you deserve gods pardon anymore than I would if I just switched my thinking now to be christian?

Can I be a christian just by sitting here thinking?

I mean, if thats the case, thousands more people would be christian. Im sure there is something done For and Through god to which salvation is confirmed than just thinking about it.

BilliardsBall · Jul 20, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
The cross pays for your sins through faith and deeds. You are not judged by your faith but by your deeds. The OT and NT arent isolated verses in regards to living a devotional lifestyle. A person wouldnt ideally commit mass murders, go to church and say hes sorry, and go out ot commit another murder.

Do you think murderers should be pardoned in their salvation because they feel faith is all they need and god doesnt care otherwise?

If you never asked for forgiveness (nor did anything for christ) by what means are you saved beyond just saying you have faith? The NT says that not all who say Lord saved. It goes beyond that.

I didnt say show. (aka not righteous). Its a gesture of love you have for christ.

You dont. Thats why you have faith. To keep that relationship (any) there is more than just saying I love you. That would be weird all in the OT, deeds are correlated with faith and then it stops short by saying you dont need deeds anymore. All you need to do is believe

The bible works as a unit.

Sorry. I dont believe there is such thing as non-bible churches unless they are not christian, its not my place to say who is and who is not. A church is a body of people. You speak of the church, you speak of its people. Everyone is growing in christ. You have no more right-understanding than they do. No one is special.

Please help me. I think I can sum what you wrote above, please correct me where I'm wrong:

1. The cross of Jesus, His deed, is insufficient. I must do deeds to pay what Jesus didn't pay on the cross (seems to be against many Bible verses).

2. Murderers should not go pardoned for the asking (though this is what Paul and other Bible figures had happen to them, and then they preached Christ).

3. I have to both ask for forgiveness from Christ and also do deeds for Christ, otherwise I have faith only (even though the Bible says faith saves without any works and that only living faith can save).

4. I have to make "gestures of love" for Christ to be saved.

5. It's not enough to tell Jesus "I love you for dying and rising for me," I must work to keep that relationship, or the same God who died by torture for me while I was His enemy and had no relationship with Him, will reject me later, for not maintaining our relationship.

6. All in the OT is never says deeds are unneeded or all you do is believe (even thought there are OT verses that just like the NT, say trusting in God cannot fail us).

7. The Bible works as a unit (I agree, just that we're ignoring hundreds of verses that say what salvation is).

8. A non-biblical church is still growing in Christ because we are all growing in Christ (but how do we know what Christ said, what Christ did or how to grow in Christ better without reading the book written by eyewitnesses that tells us what He said and did and does)?

BilliardsBall · Jul 20, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
I try not to make up points in the bible. Usually its from what I studied and related to my experiences in the church.Weirdly enough, I never say a contradiction. But then, I must not be a real catholic if catholic as a unit arent real christians. Believe me. A lot of people believe this wholeheartedly.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God

1 Peter 1:17
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Ima give you the ful link; 10 Bible verses on deeds
It is not a catholic thing. All abrahamic religions have some sort of ritual involved. Bahai. Jewish. Muslim. All have deeds. Christianity is not specal.

James 2 talks about favoratism

My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious lord jesus christ, do not show favoratism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes

Its talking about dont judge who has faith in christ and who doesnt based on looks and status. It doesnt say only faith-and the bible works as a unit. Unless they contradict each other?

Righteous works are those practiced for the sake of works ot of christ (pride; boasting)

Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

The works I am speaking of is from and of god not of self. Since there is a difference, if you do not work (for got as from god Philippians 1:11) to what reason do you deserve gods pardon anymore than I would if I just switched my thinking now to be christian?

Can I be a christian just by sitting here thinking?

I mean, if thats the case, thousands more people would be christian. Im sure there is something done For and Through god to which salvation is confirmed than just thinking about it.

I was not saved by "thinking". I was saved when Jesus was bloodied and beaten for me and then when God poured out His wrath on Christ, for me. I was saved when He rose from the dead. This salvation comes to everyone who does not reject Him. I get a birthday gift and either I open it or throw it in the trash and return it.

I've read the entire Bible multiple times in multiple versions, and have some Greek and Hebrew study under my belt. Deeds are important for Christians and Christians will be judged for what they've done and also not done--judged on Earth and in Heaven--but judged ONLY for rewards, training and growth and NOT judged for salvation. Salvation comes from the cross of Christ otherwise I can boast. From Ephesians 2:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

You will not be in Heaven boasting that you earned your way there because you did mighty works, showed your faith and love, and did good deeds. I will be in Heaven praising Jesus for dying and rising for me and for everyone.

Thanks.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 20, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
I was not saved by "thinking". I was saved when Jesus was bloodied and beaten for me and then when God poured out His wrath on Christ, for me. I was saved when He rose from the dead. This salvation comes to everyone who does not reject Him. I get a birthday gift and either I open it or throw it in the trash and return it.

I've read the entire Bible multiple times in multiple versions, and have some Greek and Hebrew study under my belt. Deeds are important for Christians and Christians will be judged for what they've done and also not done--judged on Earth and in Heaven--but judged ONLY for rewards, training and growth and NOT judged for salvation. Salvation comes from the cross of Christ otherwise I can boast. From Ephesians 2:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

You will not be in Heaven boasting that you earned your way there because you did mighty works, showed your faith and love, and did good deeds. I will be in Heaven praising Jesus for dying and rising for me and for everyone.

Thanks.

Ima get back to the rest. Thank you. By what means have he saved you literaly that it is not a thought nor action? Was it reading and poof you are saved or a feeling or heighten sense of self?

It honestly sounds more neo-aged where some neopagans use their energy and sense of self to connect to what they call the divine.

No thought
No action.
No feeling?

Just study?
Meditation?

How are yous saved? (Not what the bible says; I know that. How are you saved in your experience not what you read)

Unveiled Artist · Jul 20, 2018

Remember. The bible works as a unit.

BilliardsBall said:
1. The cross of Jesus, His deed, is insufficient. I must do deeds to pay what Jesus didn't pay on the cross (seems to

No. Deeds is an act of faith not obedience.

Its an act of gratitude. Thoughts and speech or cool; building a relationship and keeping it is also an action.

BilliardsBall said:
2. Murderers should not go pardoned for the asking (though this is what Paul and other Bible figures had happen to them, and then they preached Christ).

But salvation is based on faith not deeds, right?

Good or bad deeds shouldnt matter in relationship to salvation if deeds have no place in salvation.

BilliardsBall said:
3. I have to both ask for forgiveness from Christ and also do deeds for Christ, otherwise I have faith only (even though the Bible says faith saves without any works and that only living faith can save).

They are one.
Faith and deeds are one (listed many scriptures for this)

BilliardsBall said:
4. I have to make "gestures of love" for Christ to be saved.

Thats if you want to. Many people do so because they love their savior. Its something they want to do in their heart. Like hugging a parent when saying I love you.

BilliardsBall said:
5. It's not enough to tell Jesus "I love you for dying and rising for me," I must work to keep that relationship, or the same God who died by torture for me while I was His enemy and had no relationship with Him, will reject me later, for not maintaining our relationship.

Deeds are not work. It is not an effort.
They are just actions. What you do for christ.

It is something you want to do for christ because you love him. Your salvation (I would hope?) is based on love. Faith sounds like an empty word unless you put all the gospels together to see what faith is built on.

The last part went over my head.

while I was His enemy and had no relationship with Him, will reject me later, for not maintaining our relationship

Maintaining a relationship is a desire not a necessity.

BilliardsBall said:
6. All in the OT is never says deeds are unneeded or all you do is believe (even thought there are OT verses that just like the NT, say trusting in God cannot fail us).

Um. The OT is nothing but deeds. Isrealite didnt sit around and say I have faith. Im not following you at all.

BilliardsBall said:
7. The Bible works as a unit (I agree, just that we're ignoring hundreds of verses that say what salvation is).

So when christ says that righteous (non-egod deeds) are one with faith and have many scriptures to support it, how is that contradicting what your scripture said in the other post where one must only have faith? How is deeds separated from the latter but jesus says its important many times in the former?

BilliardsBall said:
8. A non-biblical church is still growing in Christ because we are all growing in Christ (but how do we know what Christ said, what Christ did or how to grow in Christ better without reading the book written by eyewitnesses that tells us what He said and did and does)?

Im not following that perspective. Are you the only one that knows the real bible and teachings of salvation?

Unveiled Artist · Jul 21, 2018

Self-righeousnes is more boasting and pride. That is what the bible speaks of. Deeds from and with god is not considered boasting.

BilliardsBall said:
I was not saved by "thinking". I was saved when Jesus was bloodied and beaten for me and then when God poured out His wrath on Christ, for me. I was saved when He rose from the dead. This salvation comes to everyone who does not reject Him. I get a birthday gift and either I open it or throw it in the trash and return it.

How so?

No thoughts
No actions
No feeling

That doesnt make sense

(Its kinda repeat. Going through your full post)

BilliardsBall said:
I've read the entire Bible multiple times in multiple versions, and have some Greek and Hebrew study under my belt. Deeds are important for Christians and Christians will be judged for what they've done and also not done--judged on Earth and in Heaven--but judged ONLY for rewards, training and growth and NOT judged for salvation. Salvation comes from the cross of Christ otherwise I can boast. From

How are deeds important to your relationship with god but not for your salvation?

How do you seperate deeds for god and salvation??

BilliardsBall said:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

This isnt the deeds Im referring to

BilliardsBall said:
You will not be in Heaven boasting that you earned your way there because you did mighty works, showed your faith and love, and did good deeds. I will be in Heaven praising Jesus for dying and rising for me and for everyone.

Boasting for deeds (self righteousness) and pride is not the deeds Im talking about.

BilliardsBall · Jul 23, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Ima get back to the rest. Thank you. By what means have he saved you literaly that it is not a thought nor action? Was it reading and poof you are saved or a feeling or heighten sense of self?

It honestly sounds more neo-aged where some neopagans use their energy and sense of self to connect to what they call the divine.

No thought
No action.
No feeling?

Just study?
Meditation?

How are yous saved? (Not what the bible says; I know that. How are you saved in your experience not what you read)

In my personal experience, I did not wish to be saved, because I knew it would cost me much as a Jew. As I read the New Testament, I became increasingly assured that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and that it was my responsibility to trust Him for salvation. That's my experience--of reading and responding. I know hundreds of people who read and wrote and received college degrees--are their degrees invalid because they weren't more "spiritual" experiences?

BilliardsBall · Jul 23, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Remember. The bible works as a unit.

No. Deeds is an act of faith not obedience.

Its an act of gratitude. Thoughts and speech or cool; building a relationship and keeping it is also an action.

But salvation is based on faith not deeds, right?

Good or bad deeds shouldnt matter in relationship to salvation if deeds have no place in salvation.

They are one.
Faith and deeds are one (listed many scriptures for this)

Thats if you want to. Many people do so because they love their savior. Its something they want to do in their heart. Like hugging a parent when saying I love you.

Deeds are not work. It is not an effort.
They are just actions. What you do for christ.

It is something you want to do for christ because you love him. Your salvation (I would hope?) is based on love. Faith sounds like an empty word unless you put all the gospels together to see what faith is built on.

The last part went over my head.

while I was His enemy and had no relationship with Him, will reject me later, for not maintaining our relationship

Maintaining a relationship is a desire not a necessity.

Um. The OT is nothing but deeds. Isrealite didnt sit around and say I have faith. Im not following you at all.

So when christ says that righteous (non-egod deeds) are one with faith and have many scriptures to support it, how is that contradicting what your scripture said in the other post where one must only have faith? How is deeds separated from the latter but jesus says its important many times in the former?

Im not following that perspective. Are you the only one that knows the real bible and teachings of salvation?

I hear what you're saying, but the Bible is repetitively specific and literal that faith and deeds aren't one. For example, Ephesians 2:

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

BilliardsBall · Jul 23, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Self-righeousnes is more boasting and pride. That is what the bible speaks of. Deeds from and with god is not considered boasting.

How so?

No thoughts
No actions
No feeling

That doesnt make sense

(Its kinda repeat. Going through your full post)

How are deeds important to your relationship with god but not for your salvation?

How do you seperate deeds for god and salvation??

This isnt the deeds Im referring to

Boasting for deeds (self righteousness) and pride is not the deeds Im talking about.

Again, the Bible is explicit that anyone who receives this gift/accepts this gift/relies upon Jesus/trusts Jesus is saved.

You are offered a birthday gift of a car since you need to cross from California to New York. Your choices include:

1) Receiving the gift/opening the gift to use it/taking the keys.

2) Discarding the gift, saying, "I can walk everywhere, I don't need this car."

Unveiled Artist · Jul 23, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
I hear what you're saying, but the Bible is repetitively specific and literal that faith and deeds aren't one. For example, Ephesians 2:

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

The scriptures conradict themselevs extremely. I didnt make up the ten or some odd scriptures I listed. Its a personal preference that you dont want to do anything within your salvation. Thats like saying to my mother you love me dispite I do nothing for my family because you love me. Sounds like Im taking my mothers love for granted (typical teen)

We've always been work-first type of thing. So, if I believed in christ, Id probably be a nun or in some type of service to god.

Everyone is different. That doesnt exclude works and faith as a unit in the bible not isolated verses are one together in thought, feeling, and deed. Think of it as body, mind, and spirit. You are in service with your body. You are knowledable with scripture in your mind. You are born again by spirit.

I cant take things verbatum. I literally had to seperate myself from christian-peoples bias and really understand inwardly what something means beyond scripture. Its a highly devotional mindset that scripture can help but does not replace the actual relationship with god.

Body (life of christ), Mind (lessons of christ), and Spirit (passion of christ) are a totally differnt lifestyle. Its not one or the other.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 23, 2018

@BilliardsBall

Bill, just being blunt here, but you arent going to burn in hell just because you didnt take out the trash for god. Its a gesture of thanks interrelated with faith. Trust and Service.

Jesus was aways in service to god. All the prophets were.

Can you imagine where Abraham would be if he ignored his god because he only needed faith? (bible works as a unit; they should complement each other)

BilliardsBall · Jul 24, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
The scriptures conradict themselevs extremely. I didnt make up the ten or some odd scriptures I listed. Its a personal preference that you dont want to do anything within your salvation. Thats like saying to my mother you love me dispite I do nothing for my family because you love me. Sounds like Im taking my mothers love for granted (typical teen)

We've always been work-first type of thing. So, if I believed in christ, Id probably be a nun or in some type of service to god.

Everyone is different. That doesnt exclude works and faith as a unit in the bible not isolated verses are one together in thought, feeling, and deed. Think of it as body, mind, and spirit. You are in service with your body. You are knowledable with scripture in your mind. You are born again by spirit.

I cant take things verbatum. I literally had to seperate myself from christian-peoples bias and really understand inwardly what something means beyond scripture. Its a highly devotional mindset that scripture can help but does not replace the actual relationship with god.

Body (life of christ), Mind (lessons of christ), and Spirit (passion of christ) are a totally differnt lifestyle. Its not one or the other.

Let's be logical about this. Someone who is convicted of murder who trusts Jesus for salvation will probably experience a wide variety of powerful emotions. It may take them a few days to get over the "shock" or forgiveness and salvation and some Bible study and relationship with Jesus to do the next steps--which would likely include telling people, "I got a wonderful gift from Jesus!"

That person who trusts Jesus and two days later is executed by the State for murder--do they miss Heaven because they didn't do the many things you've suggested they must do to keep salvation?

BilliardsBall · Jul 24, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
@BilliardsBall

Bill, just being blunt here, but you arent going to burn in hell just because you didnt take out the trash for god. Its a gesture of thanks interrelated with faith. Trust and Service.

Jesus was aways in service to god. All the prophets were.

Can you imagine where Abraham would be if he ignored his god because he only needed faith? (bible works as a unit; they should complement each other)

Sometimes I feel like we've read different Bibles:

* Every prophet except one shows times of weakness or struggle or doubt or sin
* The prophet who is perfect in the Bible is Jesus Christ
* The Bible says this perfect Christ is the sole propitation/justification/sacrifice/offering/worthy for the sin of the world
* No prophet was saved by being "good" - the prophets looked forward to the Messiah who would suffer for their sin

Muffled · Jul 24, 2018

paarsurrey said:
If Jesus did not die on the Cross then Christianity is in vain as per Paul and as per Pauline Christianity. So, it an important matter. Right, please?

Regards
____________
1 Corinthians 15-17

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised out from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then also our preaching is void, and your faith is void. 15Then also we are found false witnesses of God, because we have witnessed concerning God that He raised up Christ, whom He has not raised if then the dead are not raised.

16For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Also then those having fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If only in this life we are having hope in Christ, we are more to be pitied than all men.
http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/15.htm

I believe Paul is referring to the need for death for there to be a resurrection. Since the body of Jesus died it doesn't matter that Jesus didn't die since it is the body that ha to be resurrected.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 24, 2018

Deeds are a gesture of faith as part of your salvation not a replacement of it.

BilliardsBall said:
Let's be logical about this. Someone who is convicted of murder who trusts Jesus for salvation will probably experience a wide variety of powerful emotions. It may take them a few days to get over the "shock" or forgiveness and salvation and some Bible study and relationship with Jesus to do the next steps--which would likely include telling people, "I got a wonderful gift from Jesus!"

I dont understand. The murderer cant think himself to be saved. He can have an belief of contrition right now and he'd be saved. Then he can turn away in his mind and "heart" just by changing his thinking again. Or he can go into prayer and pray and feel a woosh and have the bible confirmed what he want it to be.

All in one sitting

The gift becomes the product of the mind and heart. I dont see love and gifts without action.

Action in service to god in your salvation not as obligation to ensure your salvation. Two totally different goals.

The bible has works and faith in one. The works is not self-righteous. That is a huge-huge key in this conversation. The works is for god and within god (scripture quoted).

Its not separate from god. Your deeds are not from you but from god. That is how deeds work. Through god.

As for the murderer, ideally god blesses sinners who cant repent (change their heart and actions to service). Like infants, I assume he doesnt hold it against them if they dont say thank you for the gift he gave them. Though, I guess studying the bible is a work. Many prison ministries do service as a requirement for their being in jail.

BilliardsBall said:
That person who trusts Jesus and two days later is executed by the State for murder--do they miss Heaven because they didn't do the many things you've suggested they must do to keep salvation?

No. They dont. Unless god has a exemption for some people, if you arent in service to god like christ, I honestly dont see a reason why anyone would be saved.

But thats how I see it. In the bible I dont know. Maybe the exemption is when the person cant act so god blesses them into salvation. Many people arent in that position, though. So they can say thank you. Do they want to is the quetion.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 24, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Sometimes I feel like we've read different Bibles:

* Every prophet except one shows times of weakness or struggle or doubt or sin
* The prophet who is perfect in the Bible is Jesus Christ
* The Bible says this perfect Christ is the sole propitation/justification/sacrifice/offering/worthy for the sin of the world
* No prophet was saved by being "good" - the prophets looked forward to the Messiah who would suffer for their sin

This doesnt address my comment.

Prophets and jesus did things because it was part of their salvation (former) or their obedience to their father. Its not symbolism. You literally service your brother. When you and your brother in christ comes together, jesus maks himself present.

What Im wondering is regardless of one christians belief, is jesus not present until people gather in his name? I mean, we can think all we want jesus being here but the body is a group of people not individual.

Not related but it does make me wonder how an individual christian feels he is saved outside christs body.

BilliardsBall · Jul 25, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Deeds are a gesture of faith as part of your salvation not a replacement of it.

I dont understand. The murderer cant think himself to be saved. He can have an belief of contrition right now and he'd be saved. Then he can turn away in his mind and "heart" just by changing his thinking again. Or he can go into prayer and pray and feel a woosh and have the bible confirmed what he want it to be.

All in one sitting

The gift becomes the product of the mind and heart. I dont see love and gifts without action.

Action in service to god in your salvation not as obligation to ensure your salvation. Two totally different goals.

The bible has works and faith in one. The works is not self-righteous. That is a huge-huge key in this conversation. The works is for god and within god (scripture quoted).

Its not separate from god. Your deeds are not from you but from god. That is how deeds work. Through god.

As for the murderer, ideally god blesses sinners who cant repent (change their heart and actions to service). Like infants, I assume he doesnt hold it against them if they dont say thank you for the gift he gave them. Though, I guess studying the bible is a work. Many prison ministries do service as a requirement for their being in jail.

No. They dont. Unless god has a exemption for some people, if you arent in service to god like christ, I honestly dont see a reason why anyone would be saved.

But thats how I see it. In the bible I dont know. Maybe the exemption is when the person cant act so god blesses them into salvation. Many people arent in that position, though. So they can say thank you. Do they want to is the quetion.

I'm still confused--pardon my confusion, for example, you wrote:

"The gift becomes the product of the mind and heart. I dont see love and gifts without action."

What does a two-year-old child do in their mind and heart to deserve a birthday gift? Because mine:

* Cried, sometimes not for food or needs other than attention
* Fought with others and stole their toys
* Were incapable of expressing much devotion or sincerity with their mind and heart

We gave them gifts because we loved them and expected no return. If I lend you five dollars, I expect a return. If I gift you five dollars, I expect no return.

BilliardsBall · Jul 25, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
This doesnt address my comment.

Prophets and jesus did things because it was part of their salvation (former) or their obedience to their father. Its not symbolism. You literally service your brother. When you and your brother in christ comes together, jesus maks himself present.

What Im wondering is regardless of one christians belief, is jesus not present until people gather in his name? I mean, we can think all we want jesus being here but the body is a group of people not individual.

Not related but it does make me wonder how an individual christian feels he is saved outside christs body.

It would depend on whether you believe what the Bible says, that every individual Christian is in the body. I know you believe Catholics, Protestants and Evangelicals are in one, not three bodies, Christ as the head.

Christ told someone on an adjacent cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise," before the man died, without deeds of any kind--impossible to do anything or show anything while painfully dying on a cross.

God talking

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