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Who's Jesus?

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Joseph Atwell a Biblical scholar surmised that Jesus was a propaganda invention developed by the Romans to pacify possible insurrections. It's controversial yet makes a lot of sense at the same time as a very real possibility.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-controversial-biblical-scholar-8870879.html

The leading atheist Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman said of Atwell's ouevre "I know sophomores in college who could rip this ... to shreds" and pointed out that Atwell had "no training in any relevant field."

Why should anyone endorse his theories over that of the consensus of mainstream academics?

His historiography makes no sense.

Christianity started out as a thoroughly Jewish movement with beliefs that would have seemed utterly alien and abstruse to Romans. Moreover, it was a radical sect that rejected the very pillar of Roman life: sacrifice of animals to the imperial cult, refusal to conform with which was deemed 'atheism' (rejection of the gods who upheld Rome) by the state.

The other foundational pillar of Roman society was the paterfamilias (uncontested authority of the Roman father as master of his household, because he had both auctoritas (authority) and potestas (power) of life and death over his wife, children and slaves i.e. the right to discard unwanted offspring or punish disobedience) and Jesus expressed harsh opposition to this institution, indeed going so far as to claim that he had come to "divide in two a man against his father...and a man’s enemies shall be those of his own household" (Matthew 10:34-37).

Jesus is reported to have said:


"And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven...The greatest among you will be your servant. All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted." (Matthew 23:9, 10-12).​


The fatherhood of God and the resulting equality of all people (male or female, slave or free, Roman or barbarian) as brothers in one household (the Church), made the rule of earthly paters (fathers) over their subordinate household members defunct. And this was met with horror by upper-class Roman males as the most socially dangerous doctrine they could possibly envisage.

Jesus had taught about a 'kingdom' of the Jewish God on earth that was rival to the corrupt order (as he saw it) controlled by both the client Jewish rulers (high priests and Herod) or the Empire. He explicitly condemned gentile Roman rulers as tyrants with no true legitimacy in God's eyes who lorded it over their peoples:


Matthew 20

25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 26 It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant

In the Book of Revelation, this early Christian prophet symbolically depicted the Roman Empire as a great whore and beast fat on the blood of innocent victims, whom God would bring to judgement.

The secular Roman sources (i.e. like Tacitus and Pliny) make it clear that Christianity was viewed as a pernicious threat by the Romans to their culture - as indeed it was. The spread of Christianity resulted in the eclipse of the traditional Roman civilization, both intellectually and literally.

Here is how a learned Greco-Roman pagan, Lucian of Samosata, described Christianity in the second century A.D:


http://lucianofsamosata.info/TheDeathOfPeregrine.html


It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed...The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day,–the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account...

You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on trust, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property...

As you can see, Christian beliefs were the subject of bemusement and scorn on the part of prominent Romans.
 
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syo

Well-Known Member
Simple question, simple answers?

Who's Jesus?
The Son of the Holy Trinity. The Son is God's Hagia Sophia (Holy Wisdom). He is the Word. The Beginning of the World. Everything that the Father creates goes through the Son. The Son (Jesus) connects us (the World) with Father.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
It would be nice if the answer was simple (to obtain). But it is not. Far from it. For about 200 years now the effort to find out exactly who Jesus was and what he thought and believed has been underway and has yielded so many different results...take your pick.

One should of course start with "The Quest of the Historical Jesus" by Albert Schweitzer. Then jump right up into some more modern research, maybe the fruit of the Jesus Seminar: https://www.westarinstitute.org/projects/the-jesus-seminar/

(they have a bit of an agenda but are solid scholars).



Simple question, simple answers?

Who's Jesus?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Simple question, simple answers?

Who's Jesus?

Image of God:
in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Colossians 1:14

Mediator between God and men:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

High priest:
Therefore he was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
Hebrews 2:17-18

The Messiah:
but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
John 20:31

Temple of God:
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
John 14:10
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21
 

Binyad Q

Member
Simple question, simple answers?

Who's Jesus?
Hi, I am a Muslim and can give you a precise answer on who Jesus( peace be upon him) is. He is a Messenger of God who was sent to the Children of Israel, or Jews, with a message similar to all the other Prophets and Messengers before and after him. Christians and Muslims believe that he is the Messiah, but the Jews rejected him. Jesus (pbuh) was never crucified. Instead, he was ascended by God. Before the end of the world, he will return and kill the False messiah, which the Jews will believe in.
Thanks
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Word (pre-incarnation) -- part of one God.
Creator.
While on the earth - Man - second Adam.
After resurrection - King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Savior - part of one God.

When the rerurn happens, how do perceive you will see the King of Kings, Lord of Lords?

Peace to all.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
When the rerurn happens, how do perceive you will see the King of Kings, Lord of Lords?

Peace to all.

Good question. I can't say I have really thought about it.

I would assume that he would be touchable like when Thomas touched him. But the description in Revelation is out of this world
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good question. I can't say I have really thought about it.

I would assume that he would be touchable like when Thomas touched him. But the description in Revelation is out of this world

From what I have read and observed, the description the Jews gave blinded them to the first appearance of Christ, thus this will most likely be repeated.

If it is not repeated then the promise is that the Jews will see the Glory of the Lord, the Kings of Kings. As the Jews are now in the Holy land and that is in Prophecy for the end of ages, then there must be much to consider.

My idea is that one must not be mainstream about how this is to be considered, I would say each of us should determine this.

Peace to all.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Simple question, simple answers?
Who's Jesus?

Jesus was a man who was born around year 0000 CE. Who made history being known for helping others in need [physical, mental, spiritual]

Jesus is a "name" that some even use today to invoke "His Love, His guidance and even His miraculous healing power"
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
How is that gauged? Quite a few years back I came upon a story that was uncanningly the same as that of Jesus.

Thus as there is another that has an identical story, are they equally as great, or is there a prejudice that would tip the scale in favour of one or the other?

It was the story of the Bab.

Peace to all.
Well, I have seen stories that were copied, and twisted, or adjusted. You peaked my interest. What story did you come across? Do you have a link?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, I have seen stories that were copied, and twisted, or adjusted. You peaked my interest. What story did you come across? Do you have a link?

I was on a forum that had this link posted

http://phoenixbahaicommunity.org/wp...n-the-Lives-of-Christ-and-the-Báb-revised.pdf

It is a PDF that showed me we have a lot to think about as to who was Jesus the Christ.

While searching the 'Story of the Bab', I found a film had been made. I do not live where it has currently been distributed to, so I have been unable to watch it to date, from what I read in that PDF it should be again "The greatest Story ever Told". You may live where you can see it?

https://thegatefilm.com

God is most great and Jesus the Christ has left us with much to consider.

Peace to you and all.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I was on a forum that had this link posted

http://phoenixbahaicommunity.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Parallels-between-the-Lives-of-Christ-and-the-Báb-revised.pdf

It is a PDF that showed me we have a lot to think about as to who was Jesus the Christ.

While searching the 'Story of the Bab', I found a film had been made. I do not live where it has currently been distributed to, so I have been unable to watch it to date, from what I read in that PDF it should be again "The greatest Story ever Told". You may live where you can see it?

https://thegatefilm.com

God is most great and Jesus the Christ has left us with much to consider.

Peace to you and all.
Thanks. This a a very recent writing though (19th century), so obviously parts were borrowed, and there was an attempt to fit it into the ancient scriptures, and interpret the scriptures to fit the story.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks. This a a very recent writing though (19th century), so obviously parts were borrowed, and there was an attempt to fit it into the ancient scriptures, and interpret the scriptures to fit the story.

Jesus the Christ lived a life that was recorded, from those records of His life you have stated there is no greater person or life lived.

The Bab likewise lived a life that was recorded, from those records it shows that this life in all aspects can be compared to that of Christs.

The Messages appear to be the same.

One does not need to fit a story, they are both their own story and are remarkably simular. I found the statement by the Bab at his farcical trial a powerful statement.

When asked;

"Whom do you claim to be," he asked the Bab, "and what is the message which you have brought?" "I am," thrice exclaimed the Bab, "I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whos mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person."

Our One God works in mysterious ways, to me there are many things to consider and Christ is a key to this understanding.

Peace to you and all.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Jesus the Christ lived a life that was recorded, from those records of His life you have stated there is no greater person or life lived.

The Bab likewise lived a life that was recorded, from those records it shows that this life in all aspects can be compared to that of Christs.

The Messages appear to be the same.

One does not need to fit a story, they are both their own story and are remarkably simular. I found the statement by the Bab at his farcical trial a powerful statement.

When asked;

"Whom do you claim to be," he asked the Bab, "and what is the message which you have brought?" "I am," thrice exclaimed the Bab, "I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whos mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person."

Our One God works in mysterious ways, to me there are many things to consider and Christ is a key to this understanding.

Peace to you and all.
I think, if someone copied the life story - to some measure - of the greatest man who ever lived, then it would be obvious that one who reads the story would consider the character a good person, but it's still a copy of the first, and would that not be distracting from the original, in order to direct attention to the copy?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think, if someone copied the life story - to some measure - of the greatest man who ever lived, then it would be obvious that one who reads the story would consider the character a good person, but it's still a copy of the first, and would that not be distracting from the original, in order to direct attention to the copy?

That would be akin to saying that a man purposely provoked the actions in the people that responded to a Message given. What possible earthly gain would that invoke? One could just as easily say that about Jesus the Christ. We must Judge fairly here, to make a conclusion, we actually have to read the story of the Bab from a reliable source. I say that, as one would not choose to read of Christ from a Jewish point of view.

Personally I see it is Christ that is behind all the Great 'men' who have told us about God. When I say 'men' I also am not saying it as a male gender, I say it knowing this is the Holy Spirit behind them, which knows no gender.

I see this passage supports that thought;

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

Personally I see the Christ Spirit in all People that have claimed a Message from our One God and produced the Life and Fruits to match the Message given.

Peace to you and all.
 
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