Why Islam makes more sense conceptually of all the Abrahamic faiths

Ellen Brown · Jul 17, 2018

Faithofchristian said:
Seeing you have no idea about God's elect and the Very Elect. They were chosen by God millions of years ago.

Seeing you have no idea what the Spirit of the word is. Not even many Christians have any idea what the Spirit of the word is.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" 1st Corinthians 2:14

Many Christians will go about trying to say the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is this or that.
Not realizing that Christ Jesus has foretold in the book of Mark 13 what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is.
And when it will happen.
And who can commit it.

It's all there in Mark chapter 13.
Now let's see if you can figure out what the Spirit of the word is saying ?

Christ Jesus did say, that the words that he speaks are Spirit.

" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
John 6:63

Oh by the way, Who do you suppose Christ Jesus is speaking to, in the above verse ?

So, what reason do you have for speaking to another the way you have? What would Jesus the Christ say about that? Here in lies part of my issue with Christians.

Thief · Jul 17, 2018

shunyadragon said:
This is a very naive view of what happens world wide in the Christian world, and again being selective of what happens in history.

I was speaking of current day

Christian crusades tend to be ...door to door
no swords

Spiderman · Jul 17, 2018

Epic Beard Man said:
Sigh*

Even understanding different cultures is hard, I don't want to respond to none of the Dr. Seuss-cat-in-the-hat type things you address to me.

.

Ellen Brown said:
Very respectfully, because of my own experience in a Salafi group, here in America, my own experiences were very different. Not saying that is how it should have been, however. While active, I did learn about the good things that Muhammad PBUH did, like the Constitution of Medina, not being segregated from the men, and other things. However, my own experience was that the women were tucked away in a room upstairs and often could not even SEE the speaker. This was the case in three different Mosques I attended in Portland, Oregon, and one near Cleveland, Ohio. They were all Sunni. A Shia Mosque I attended had it such that men and women were in the same room, but with a row of book cases separating us.

Aisha was seen as the woman who gathered up the Prophet's notes and compiled them and that became the Quran.

A few times there was discussion about Surah 4:34, though I did not see women beaten.

The Mosque described in your link is one I would like to attend.

Thank you.

Khadijah

Speaking of understanding other cultures. Who wants to be culturally enriched by hate and dehumanization? One of the big mistakes Donald Trump has made, is he has not quoted the hate, torture, and bigotry in the Qur'an, as a reason for why we don't want adherents to Fascism in the free-world.

I've quoted this before but I'm not sure you have seen it:

"But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning" [Quran Verses 22:19-22]

This really bothers me, because I have met many atheists who are like Buddha, who follow the golden rule and love others, not returning violence for violence! It says these cruel psychopathic tortures are in store for those who "disbelieve". Are people at fault for disbelieving? It isn't like God is speaking to them in a way they know God spoke, so why should they be tortured for disbelief?

I don't think this verse is just about disbelievers. I believe it is about people like myself who oppose Islam, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and Polytheists. If Allah is such a cruel psychopath, as the Qur'an says he is, why can't psychopathic Muslims act out the cruel fantasies of Muhammad and Allah, in the "Holy Book, Word of Allah"? Allah clearly hates "those who disbelieve", so what's wrong with groups like ISIS having the same hatred for non-Muslims?

"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)

This verse is about those who fight Allah and His messenger. Technically that applies to myself and anyone who loves freedom. Since Allah and his messenger are clearly psychopaths by modern standards, to oppose them and fight them is just as noble and justified as fighting people like Adolf Hitler!

Some Muslims claim this verse is about the afterlife. That's even worse if the torture is forever and ever!
It paints up Allah and his messenger as cruel psychopaths, so that Muslims with psychopathic tendencies feel enabled in their depraved desires. Muslims do hack off hands, cut out tongues, cut off noses, and cut off God only knows what. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the world it happens every day. The Qur'an glorifies this behavior!

Aisha suffered early in life, losing her mother and forced into marriage as a teenager.[1] In a practice known as baad, Aisha's father promised her to a Taliban fighter when she was 12 years old as compensation for a killing that a member of her family had committed. She was married at 14 and subjected to abuse. At 18 she fled the abuse but was caught by police, jailed for five months, and returned to her family.[2] Her father returned her to her husband's family. To take revenge on her escape, her father-in-law, husband, and three other family members took Aisha into the mountains, cut off her nose and her ears, and left her to die
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibi_Aisha
(For those who haven't seen, here she is, an otherwise attractive woman, condemned to a life of humiliation)

I would not be in the least bit surprised if a Muslim does something like this somewhere everyday. It's worse than dying imo. Muslims who do this are just doing something similar to what Allah or his messenger did to people (especially non-muslims) or at least will do to them eventually. Disgusting!

Hence, Epic Beard Man, I proved you wrong! You insult me as being like a child rather than just admit the obvious fact that I proved you wrong and you can't handle it! Speaking of being like a child, children are more likely to make personal attacks rather than admit their mistakes when blatantly obviously proved wrong!

Spiderman · Jul 17, 2018

Speaking of "Cat in the hat", Cat got your tongue?

Ellen Brown · Jul 17, 2018

PopeADope said:
Speaking of understanding other cultures. Who wants to be culturally enriched by hate and dehumanization? One of the big mistakes Donald Trump has made, is he has not quoted the hate, torture, and bigotry in the Qur'an, as a reason for why we don't want adherents to Fascism in the free-world.

I've quoted this before but I'm not sure you have seen it:

"But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning" [Quran Verses 22:19-22]

This really bothers me, because I have met many atheists who are like Buddha, who follow the golden rule and love others, not returning violence for violence! It says these cruel psychopathic tortures are in store for those who "disbelieve". Are people at fault for disbelieving? It isn't like God is speaking to them in a way they know God spoke, so why should they be tortured for disbelief?

I don't think this verse is just about disbelievers. I believe it is about people like myself who oppose Islam, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and Polytheists. If Allah is such a cruel psychopath, as the Qur'an says he is, why can't psychopathic Muslims act out the cruel fantasies of Muhammad and Allah, in the "Holy Book, Word of Allah"? Allah clearly hates "those who disbelieve", so what's wrong with groups like ISIS having the same hatred for non-Muslims?

"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)

This verse is about those who fight Allah and His messenger. Technically that applies to myself and anyone who loves freedom. Since Allah and his messenger are clearly psychopaths by modern standards, to oppose them and fight them is just as noble and justified as fighting people like Adolf Hitler!

Some Muslims claim this verse is about the afterlife. That's even worse if the torture is forever and ever!
It paints up Allah and his messenger as cruel psychopaths, so that Muslims with psychopathic tendencies feel enabled in their depraved desires. Muslims do hack off hands, cut out tongues, cut off noses, and cut off God only knows what. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the world it happens every day. The Qur'an glorifies this behavior!

Aisha suffered early in life, losing her mother and forced into marriage as a teenager.[1] In a practice known as baad, Aisha's father promised her to a Taliban fighter when she was 12 years old as compensation for a killing that a member of her family had committed. She was married at 14 and subjected to abuse. At 18 she fled the abuse but was caught by police, jailed for five months, and returned to her family.[2] Her father returned her to her husband's family. To take revenge on her escape, her father-in-law, husband, and three other family members took Aisha into the mountains, cut off her nose and her ears, and left her to die
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibi_Aisha
(For those who haven't seen, here she is, an otherwise attractive woman, condemned to a life of humiliation)

View attachment 23087

I would not be in the least bit surprised if a Muslim does something like this somewhere everyday. It's worse than dying imo. Muslims who do this are just doing something similar to what Allah or his messenger did to people (especially non-muslims) or at least will do to them eventually. Disgusting!

Hence, Epic Beard Man, I proved you wrong! You insult me as being like a child rather than just admit the obvious fact that I proved you wrong and you can't handle it! Speaking of being like a child, children are more likely to make personal attacks rather than admit their mistakes when blatantly obviously proved wrong!

I issued a challenge to you. Have you done it? I asked you to read substantial part of the Quran. People are fond of taking those parts out of context, but somehow are more charitable in reading the same sorts of passages in the Old Testament where Joshua wipes out several villages.

Spiderman · Jul 17, 2018

Ellen Brown said:
So, what reason do you have for speaking to another the way you have? What would Jesus the Christ say about that? Here in lies part of my issue with Christians.

If you have such an issue with Christians, why would you defend Islam, a Religion that has regimes that use non-muslims as sex-slaves, blow up Shiite mosques, rape Shiite and non-muslim women, and mutilate, torture, and disfigure their opponents for Religious reasons? How many Christian regimes in the 21st century do that? Maybe you can find one in an impoverished, developing, uneducated country, but you won't find it in Europe, America, Canada, Australia, or any first world Christian-majority countries in the 21st century.

It runs rampant in the Islamic world!

I admit, the average Christian teaches something disgusting, and there is much hypocrisy in Christianity and mass-killings in the Bible, and I reject all of it. Many Christians do the same. I've never heard a Muslim say, "The behavior of Muhammad, and various verses in the Qur'an are sick and wrong!"

And the atrocities that Christians commit against people for being "non-Christian" are quite rare in the 21st century compared to the atrocities Muslims commit against people for being non-muslim or speaking the truth about Muhammad and the Qur'an!

Hence, the reason I favor Christianity as by far the lesser of two evils, especially considering that Jesus didn't kill anyone or order anyone to be put to death!

Ellen Brown said:
I issued a challenge to you. Have you done it? I asked you to read substantial part of the Quran. People are fond of taking those parts out of context, but somehow are more charitable in reading the same sorts of passages in the Old Testament where Joshua wipes out several villages.

No, I absolutely am disgusted with the atrocities in the Old Testament. I told you that! It is one of the stupidest books ever and I hate much of it! Is there a reason why you keep bringing it up like I believe it to be true, as if I don't already hate it with every fiber of my being???

Jesus did away with all of that!

Muhammad returned over 600 years later to bring back hate, Fascist Dictatorship, mutilation, torture, and mass-killings!

And by the way, I told you, I have read the Qur'an from front to back twice, two different interpretations. Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism was far more coherent, far more rational, and far less hateful, with no glorification of torture!

The point is, Muhammad was just as hateful if not more hateful than Mussolini, the founder of Fascism, at least according to what the two of them wrote!

Spiderman · Jul 17, 2018

Ellen Brown said:
People are fond of taking those parts out of context, .

How do you know I took any of those verses out of context???

Cutting off hands and feet, pouring boiling water upon, and burning people, is psychopathic gruesome torture, whether it is in this life or the next life, it is just as sadistic, barbaric, vicious, and psychopathic!

How do you know I took anything out of context???

How could you even imply such a thing?

shunyadragon · Jul 17, 2018

Thief said:
I was speaking of current day

Christian crusades tend to be ...door to door
no swords

Knock! Knock!

Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons?

I was clear you cannot be honest by being selective on timing in history.

Spiderman · Jul 17, 2018

Ellen Brown said:
but somehow are more charitable in reading the same sorts of passages in the Old Testament where Joshua wipes out several villages.

More charitable?

I hate the policies and mass-killings in the Old Testament with every fiber of my being. I hate some of the New Testament as well, like when it speaks of people tossed into a lake of fire!
However, if being tossed into a lake of fire means we get to die quickly by burning up relatively quickly, I'm okay with being put out of my misery in a lake of fire.

It sure beats getting my hands and feet cut off, hooks of iron in the flesh, and doused in boiling water like Muhammad and his Allah want me to go through for God only knows how long!

I love Jesus for the same reason I love Gandhi, Buddha, and Martin Luther King.

I love anyone who says we should, "Love our enemies, turn the other cheek, not return violence with violence, not stone adulterers", said of those who tortured and crucified him, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do", and when an Apostle picked up a sword to defend him, he said "put away your sword, those who live by the sword shall die by the sword!"

I cherish any Religious leader, especially Muslim leaders who teach that, and who don't raise up an army to oppress people, force Doctrine down their throat, sympathize with intolerant dark-aged Theocracy, destroy shrines and Idols that are sacred to polytheists, stone adulterers etc.

stvdv · Jul 18, 2018

Revoltingest said:
Does 2+2=5 make more sense than 2+2=3 ?

Yes it does to me:
Hypothetical: 2 flavored chickens (FC) cost 2 dollars
In India buying "2 FC" cost 2 dollars. Asking how much 2+2 FC cost, they said 5 dollars

2+2=5 makes more sense than 2+2=3 [if you want to get the most money selling 4 FC]
2+2=3 makes more sense than 2+2=5 [if you want to get the most chicken for 3 dollars]

I always thought, are Indians fools here. In Holland you get discount when buying more

But recently in Holland also: For sale normal 1 FC=2 dollar, today 2 FC=2 dollar
So I asked "I need 3 FC, so that would be 3 dollar I guess". No she said that is 4 dollar

Finally I figured it out:
Much smarter not to sell big quantity at lower price.
They can't eat all in 1 day AND once addicted to FC they happily pay full price next day

stvdv · Jul 18, 2018

PopeADope said:
It bothers me when entire nations or regimes make it law that women have to wear burkas (sometimes covering their face) or they get sexually assaulted.
I don't know of any Christian countries that do that to women in the 21st century, but such laws have dominated multiple nations and countless millions of people in the 21st century. I'd rather be dead than live under such a regime. Some things are worse than death, and that torture of dark-aged misogynist Theocracy, is one of them!

What really p*sses me off and makes my blood boil is when they mutilate and disfigure people. Mutilating and disfiguring people is promoted in the Qur'an, which explains why it is seen more in 21st century Islam as opposed to 21st century Christianity.

Aisha suffered early in life, losing her mother and forced into marriage as a teenager.[1] In a practice known as baad, Aisha's father promised her to a Taliban fighter when she was 12 years old as compensation for a killing that a member of her family had committed. She was married at 14 and subjected to abuse. At 18 she fled the abuse but was caught by police, jailed for five months, and returned to her family.[2] Her father returned her to her husband's family. To take revenge on her escape, her father-in-law, husband, and three other family members took Aisha into the mountains, cut off her nose and her ears, and left her to die
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibi_Aisha
(Here is a picture of her mutilated face. An otherwise attractive human being)

View attachment 23043

Thank you for sharing. This is "beyond pissing me off". This is the worst of the worst.

There is only 1 reason that this happens still NOW. The Quran claims to be "The Truth"

This story shows "The Truth" in my humble opinion. 1 solution = re-edit the Quran

Then maybe, maybe in a few generation this horrific violence will stop, otherwise it won't

Augustus · Jul 18, 2018

Epic Beard Man said:
Because there are elements in Islam that are similar to Judaism and Christianity Muhammad was someone who borrowed from them? History has shown Muhammad was no scholar, and even when the Banu Quyrayza were going to be punished Muhammad had it done by THEIR laws. Muhammad was no scholar in Judaic or Christian law.

How can a supersessionist faith not rely on aspects of the religions that it supersedes?

And 'scholar' or not, the Quran is a text which displayed a sophisticated theological understanding of Abrahamic religion in the context of the Late Antique Middle East. Large parts of it are even commentaries on the Biblical and para-Biblical traditions.

Spiderman · Jul 18, 2018

stvdv said:
Thank you for sharing. This is "beyond pissing me off". This is the worst of the worst.

There is only 1 reason that this happens still NOW. The Quran claims to be "The Truth"

This story shows "The Truth" in my humble opinion. 1 solution = re-edit the Quran

Then maybe, maybe in a few generation this horrific violence will stop, otherwise it won't

Yes,
What happens is psychos read about Allah wanting people to be tortured and mutilated, and they zero in on those verses, and start torturing and mutilating people, thinking its what Allah wants!

I would bet it happens to someone some where every day at the hands of a hateful Muslim.

Sunnis even do it to their fellow Islamic Shiites, and the two groups essentially believe the same things about Allah and Theology, yet constantly kill each other!

It's crazy!

stvdv · Jul 18, 2018

PopeADope said:
Yes,
What happens is psychos read about Allah wanting people to be tortured and mutilated, and they zero in on those verses, and start torturing and mutilating people, thinking its what Allah wants!

I would bet it happens to someone some where every day at the hands of a hateful Muslim.

Sunnis even do it to their fellow Islamic Shiites, and the two groups essentially believe the same things about Allah and Theology, yet constantly kill each other!

It's crazy!

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion

Agreed. Sharp deduction. Some googling:
You know how many Muslims live on earth = 24%
You know how many psychopaths live on earth = 1%
Simple math: How many Muslim Psychopaths will that be?
Give a psycho the Quran and "peace might be gone forever"
[https://www.quora.com/How-many-psychopaths-are-out-there]
[https://gellerreport.com/2018/07/jihad-nuke-holland.html/]
Suggesting: Start re-editing Quran, don't wait for proof
Risky groups: Psychopaths, Sociopaths, Narcissists
[Defined as: "stone cold" to the rights of others]

The above format looks like the tip of a nuke, but that is coincidence.
I love Islam, but I question the immanent danger through Quran violence
I can discriminate between good/evil acts; but by now it's proven not all can
I just believe we have proof enought that something need to be done
Killing all innocent Muslims while bombing ISIS is a terrible thing
Best to tackle the root, where ISIS gets inspiration from IMHO

I am born Christian and am willing to make compromise
Get violent verses out of Bible and Quran both
2000 years were knife fights, soon nuke fights
I call it Common Sense; stay 1 step ahead

Something needs to be done, in my opinion. And don't wait any longer
As long as religions entertain the thought "My way is the highway" + "evangelizing"
Then it needs no genius to know that soon big trouble start [knife fight is over]
When we wait too long, we might be back to knife fighting though.

shunyadragon · Jul 18, 2018

PopeADope said:
How do you know I took any of those verses out of context???

Cutting off hands and feet, pouring boiling water upon, and burning people, is psychopathic gruesome torture, whether it is in this life or the next life, it is just as sadistic, barbaric, vicious, and psychopathic!

How do you know I took anything out of context???

How could you even imply such a thing?

The accusations flying around like stone chucking in glass houses between the different ancient religions is not productive. All the ancient religions are guilty, there are no angels here. It is best to acknowledge a fallible human element in the scriptures and in the ancient tribal human culture the religions began and evolved in. The belief in the exclusiveness of one religion, church, or variation of the above encourages this darker side of humanity..

BilliardsBall · Jul 18, 2018

shunyadragon said:
I believe Biblically your on shaky grounds with self proclaimed salvation and saying others are not.

From: http://whatthebiblesays.info/WhoIsSaved.html
The teachings of the Bible are quite a contrast to this. To begin with, God's Word tells us that we should not label people as "saved" or "sinner." Jesus said, "Judge not, that you be not condemned". Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?" (Matthew 7: 1, 3) James put it this way: "There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?" (James 4: 1)

When the Lord was on earth, a judging attitude was prevalent among the leaders of the church. Many thought that when the Messiah came, He would save Jews, and not others. When Jesus did come, they condemned Him for associating with non-Jews and Jews alike.

Jesus discouraged this kind of attitude. Once He was speaking with some people who "trusted in themselves" that they were saved and others were not. He asked them to consider two prayers: "God, I thank you that I am not like other men," and "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!" Jesus praised the man who thought he was a sinner. (Luke 18: 9-14) It's better to think of yourself as a sinner than to think you are saved.

You may remember the parable of the good Samaritan, who stopped to help the wounded man by the roadside. Even though this Samaritan was of the "wrong" faith (from the Jewish point of view), Jesus said that the Samaritan should be loved as a neighbor, because he was a good man. In fact, He said that a person who wants eternal life should be like this Samaritan (Luke 10: 29-37)--even though the Samaritan was neither Christian nor Jewish. Jesus saw--and sees--what is in a person's heart, not just what church one belongs to.

The Bible states clearly that it is the way a person lives, not just what he believes, that determines whether he goes to heaven or not. Jesus said, "Not every one who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7: 21) Again, "He shall reward every one according to his works." (Matthew 16: 27) "Those who have done good," He says, will go "to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5: 29) Since a person's life, not just his faith, determines his eternal lot, Jesus foretold that many Christians would not be saved, because they had lived an evil life. "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you: depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" (Matthew 27: 22-23, Luke 13: 25-27)

One reason why a non-Christian can be saved, is that he can love his neighbor. Anyone who genuinely loves his neighbor also loves Christ, although he may not realize it. Jesus said, "Inasmuch as you have ministered to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." (Matthew 25: 40) Faith in Jesus, without love to the neighbor is meaningless. "Though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13: 2) Genuine love, on the other hand, is a sign that a person knows the Lord in his heart, regardless of the religion he professes outwardly. "Love believes all things." (1 Corinthians 13: 7) "He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God." (3 John 11) "Let us love one another, for love is of God, and every one who loves is born of God and knows God". God is love, and anyone who abides in love abides in God, and God in him." (1 John 4: 7-11)

Respectfully,

1) Judgment is actually demanded of believers. There is a book of Judges who judged the nation of Israel. It will help if you understand judgment is discernment and also realize that the Matthew 7 passage also implies born agains have no planks in their eyes and can sometimes see around the specks in their eyes to judge correctly, using the Bible as the lens of judgment.

2) I believe the Bible teaches non-Christians can be saved by trusting God, but not by "loving their neighbor". In the coming kingdom, there will be zero tolerance for not loving one's neighbor, which logically implies transformation--man is morally imperfect and must be made perfect by the cross. Also, having people saved by their love begs the question of why Christ was on the cross--specific passages say it was a payment or ransom for sin and not merely "an outstanding example of loving one's neighbor".

3) There are unclear verses--unclear without source language, textual context and historical context, that seem to say odd doctrines like "how you live is salvation," but there are over 150 very eminently clear NT passages that teach salvation is an unearned gift that comes via receiving or trusting in what Jesus did on the cross, suffering a horrible death by torture for us, and rising from the dead after. In fact, many of the passages that come to mind use the example of "living right" as the polar opposite of salvation, for example, " . . . comes through faith by trust, NOT BY WORKS, a free gift . . . " etc., etc.

In fact, since there are so many hundreds of passages in both testaments that teach salvation by trusting God, I would say either a) you are misunderstanding/the website you quoted misunderstands salvation by works or b) the Bible has some severe contradictions within.

shunyadragon · Jul 18, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Respectfully,

1) Judgment is actually demanded of believers. There is a book of Judges who judged the nation of Israel. It will help if you understand judgment is discernment and also realize that the Matthew 7 passage also implies born agains have no planks in their eyes and can sometimes see around the specks in their eyes to judge correctly, using the Bible as the lens of judgment.

2) I believe the Bible teaches non-Christians can be saved by trusting God, but not by "loving their neighbor". In the coming kingdom, there will be zero tolerance for not loving one's neighbor, which logically implies transformation--man is morally imperfect and must be made perfect by the cross. Also, having people saved by their love begs the question of why Christ was on the cross--specific passages say it was a payment or ransom for sin and not merely "an outstanding example of loving one's neighbor".

3) There are unclear verses--unclear without source language, textual context and historical context, that seem to say odd doctrines like "how you live is salvation," but there are over 150 very eminently clear NT passages that teach salvation is an unearned gift that comes via receiving or trusting in what Jesus did on the cross, suffering a horrible death by torture for us, and rising from the dead after. In fact, many of the passages that come to mind use the example of "living right" as the polar opposite of salvation, for example, " . . . comes through faith by trust, NOT BY WORKS, a free gift . . . " etc., etc.

In fact, since there are so many hundreds of passages in both testaments that teach salvation by trusting God, I would say either a) you are misunderstanding/the website you quoted misunderstands salvation by works or b) the Bible has some severe contradictions within.

The problem remains the inconsistent and contradictory claims of judgement over the millenia by people who believe differently. Many acts of judgement have resulted in the unfortunate termination of many lives.

My post addressed the egocentric claim of salvation and not the how of salvation is described different places in the Bible.
I will choose b)

BilliardsBall · Jul 18, 2018

Epic Beard Man said:
How do you know Muslims do not feel assured about salvation?

You assurance is similar to the pedophile that harms children yet was baptized and proclaims salvation. I think theologically Muslims understand that salvation is not guaranteed even for the believer because there are plenty of believers in God that harm people regularly. Your belief is not what saves you, it is rather a combination of things. For the Muslim, God sees everything that you do, and while you may believe in God, perpetual disrespect to another person along with having a vile attitude and disrespect for human beings and other life forms is not of Good, rather, a distortion of your own mind (at least according to theology). Often times people use the belief in Good as a crutch for salvation.

"Oh I believe Jesus is Lord and Savior so I'm saved..."

How do you know? For the uttering of saying so and believing it?

There is a common issue I see in all members of the Abrahamic family and that is arrogance...Arrogance is the common denominator.

Although so-called believers often proclaim God as their savior they do not act humble. I find it like the person who almost drowns and God throws a life raft out. the Jew, Christian,. and Muslim is like "I knew God would do that, that's my homie and homies do that." Yet all that time you were the same individual that pushed another person's head down underwater to save your own skin. Believers proclaim often that God is all-knowing yet behave as if what they do is in secret.

I was told "why aren't you Muslim?"

I said "I like pre-marital sex and alcohol too much."

That is not to say I like them more than God, but if I base my behavior and my social interactions with people based on those two vices for decades religion is not going to suddenly get rid of a behavior that I've constructed in my life. These are things that change in time. Just as the skin head who hates Jews and blacks but proclaim Christ as their savior your behavior does not suddenly evaporate, at least not in the common way. So no, there is no assurance.. God may say "hey you were a decent guy but you acted very arrogant, I want you to know what hell is like for 5 seconds."

Thank you. Christian/biblical assurance is the 100% guarantee offered by Jesus, "Whoever trusts/has trusted me has eternal life and will not come into judgment."

You asked "How do you know Muslims do not feel assured about salvation?" and then wrote, "I think theologically Muslims understand that salvation is not guaranteed even for the believer . . ." which in Christian terms, is not 100% assurance.

I'm aware that people use belief as a crutch, however, Christian salvation is based upon what Christ has done--suffering death by torture on the cross, then rising from the dead, to pay for man's sin. I hope you'll be relieved to know that Allah will judge those who use salvation as a crutch:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The "will of the Father" in the passage above is to trust Jesus for assurance of salvation:

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Also, I hear what you say about arrogance from the Abrahamic family of faith. It is humbling to admire the cross as in Philippians 2:

Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Revoltingest · Jul 18, 2018

stvdv said:
Yes it does to me:
Hypothetical: 2 flavored chickens (FC) cost 2 dollars
In India buying "2 FC" cost 2 dollars. Asking how much 2+2 FC cost, they said 5 dollars

2+2=5 makes more sense than 2+2=3 [if you want to get the most money selling 4 FC]
2+2=3 makes more sense than 2+2=5 [if you want to get the most chicken for 3 dollars]

I always thought, are Indians fools here. In Holland you get discount when buying more

But recently in Holland also: For sale normal 1 FC=2 dollar, today 2 FC=2 dollar
So I asked "I need 3 FC, so that would be 3 dollar I guess". No she said that is 4 dollar

Finally I figured it out:
Much smarter not to sell big quantity at lower price.
They can't eat all in 1 day AND once addicted to FC they happily pay full price next day

Fascinating.

Spiderman · Jul 18, 2018

stvdv said:
Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion

Agreed. Sharp deduction. Some googling:
You know how many Muslims live on earth = 24%
You know how many psychopaths live on earth = 1%
Simple math: How many Muslim Psychopaths will that be?
Give a psycho the Quran and "peace might be gone forever"
[https://www.quora.com/How-many-psychopaths-are-out-there]
[https://gellerreport.com/2018/07/jihad-nuke-holland.html/]
Suggesting: Start re-editing Quran, don't wait for proof
Risky groups: Psychopaths, Sociopaths, Narcissists
[Defined as: "stone cold" to the rights of others]

The above format looks like the tip of a nuke, but that is coincidence.
I love Islam, but I question the immanent danger through Quran violence
I can discriminate between good/evil acts; but by now it's proven not all can
I just believe we have proof enought that something need to be done
Killing all innocent Muslims while bombing ISIS is a terrible thing
Best to tackle the root, where ISIS gets inspiration from IMHO

I am born Christian and am willing to make compromise
Get violent verses out of Bible and Quran both
2000 years were knife fights, soon nuke fights
I call it Common Sense; stay 1 step ahead

Something needs to be done, in my opinion. And don't wait any longer
As long as religions entertain the thought "My way is the highway" + "evangelizing"
Then it needs no genius to know that soon big trouble start [knife fight is over]
When we wait too long, we might be back to knife fighting though.

I don't know how many psychopaths there are.

It isn't like even like 5% of people volunteered for a survey.

Bottom line is, the founder of Islam was clearly a psychopath by modern standards.

So, Muslims are encouraged to act like him.

Yes, sick violent verses glorifying torture need to be removed from Bible and Koran.

Why Islam makes more sense conceptually of all the Abrahamic faiths

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