Kingdom Gospel ism

BilliardsBall said:

In the four gospels, Jesus quotes prophecies referencing Himself that He would have two flocks including the Gentiles, and merge them. The fact that some apostles chose Jewish evangelism and others Gentile outreach is missing the fact that Paul still stayed in rabbis' houses after, preached in synagogues, and said he was working diligently via Gentile evangelism to reach Jews for salvation (Romans 10-11).

Jesus genuinely presented Himself to Israel, and per prophecy saved all people via the Cross as one result.

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The flock Jesus was talking to had been drawn by the Law of His Father to the Kingdom Gospel of the Son, which says that the Law will last until the end of the Millennium. He never changed His mind. The gentile woman ate scraps from the table of the Hebrews, meaning that she only ate what the Hebrews ate, making her not a dog that eats everything. Jesus accepted her, and therefore healed her daughter... which is why that Acts account is a false witness against Peter.

Jesus never changed who He was talking to, because His Kingdom Gospel never changed, because His word will never change. Jesus saves races because Israel is genetically blended with all races. People who don't even have a drop of Hebrew blood will never hear the Kingdom Gospel, because Jesus never came to anyone but the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. You cannot rewrite what Jesus said to fit the without-Law gospel, no matter what tradition has done by robbing Jesus to pay Paul. Jesus tells the 11 after His ascension and return that they are to teach among the nations the very things that Jesus had taught them.

And you certainly can't go by Paul's changing mind as to what should or should not have been taught to whom, since he was openly poaching from Peter's circumcision flock... contrary to his own teaching in at least two places. The fact that the Galatians were stubbornly returning to the Law, which Jesus tells us has never ceased, should be a lesson to us all: Only Jesus' sheep hear His voice, and they will not follow the stranger named Paul.

OtherSheep said:

The flock Jesus was talking to had been drawn by the Law of His Father to the Kingdom Gospel of the Son, which says that the Law will last until the end of the Millennium. He never changed His mind. The gentile woman ate scraps from the table of the Hebrews, meaning that she only ate what the Hebrews ate, making her not a dog that eats everything. Jesus accepted her, and therefore healed her daughter... which is why that Acts account is a false witness against Peter.

Jesus never changed who He was talking to, because His Kingdom Gospel never changed, because His word will never change. Jesus saves races because Israel is genetically blended with all races. People who don't even have a drop of Hebrew blood will never hear the Kingdom Gospel, because Jesus never came to anyone but the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. You cannot rewrite what Jesus said to fit the without-Law gospel, no matter what tradition has done by robbing Jesus to pay Paul. Jesus tells the 11 after His ascension and return that they are to teach among the nations the very things that Jesus had taught them.

And you certainly can't go by Paul's changing mind as to what should or should not have been taught to whom, since he was openly poaching from Peter's circumcision flock... contrary to his own teaching in at least two places. The fact that the Galatians were stubbornly returning to the Law, which Jesus tells us has never ceased, should be a lesson to us all: Only Jesus' sheep hear His voice, and they will not follow the stranger named Paul.

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Respectfully, as a Jew who has had his own DNA ancestry tested/revealed, we Jewish people are not "intermingled everywhere". We lived, for example, in ghettos in Europe for 1,000 years, and when intermarrying or converting to Christianity were expelled from our community, while the Gentiles of Europe killed us and said it was sinful to intermarry back with us.

Jesus's point was that it was inappropriate at the moment to heal the daughter of a Gentile, which speaks against this convert having Jewish blood.

I agree with you that the Law is more than for this age, it is eternal! However, there are hundreds of verses in the whole NT, including the four gospels, that clearly indicate 1) no one is saved by law keeping 2) anyone who thinks so is foolish and will be judged for their failure to keep the eternal, perfect Law 3) salvation comes through the Cross and resurrection, via trusting Christ personally.

I never found Paul "changed his mind" at times, rather, I find that over 95% of what he taught was straight from the OT, and Halachic/Hebrew in thought. There's barely anything Paul wrote that we cannot find verbatim in Tanakh.

There are no counter-documents to prove Paul and the apostles were false teachers. They were accepted early in the first century by living eyewitnesses who saw the risen Christ, including thousands of Jewish converts in Israel.

Thanks!

sojourner said:

No; it’s the same gospel. That gospel transcends the Mosaic Law to encompass a greater cross section of cultures. The gospel isn’t a “continuation” of Mosaic Law, but a new creation that springs from it.

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Jesus says nothing about a "new creation" or any other cultures. He says the "anomia" people are those He never knew. "Expediency" also has no place in Jesus' vocabulary. These two gospels are night versus day.

Jesus came only unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, and never changed His mind. He taught the Kingdom Gospel Law... which judges the heart before the action ever happens... which will be used in the Kingdom, to protect the intended victim.

OtherSheep said:

Jesus says nothing about a "new creation" or any other cultures. He says the "anomia" people are those He never knew. "Expediency" also has no place in Jesus' vocabulary. These two gospels are night versus day.

Jesus came only unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, and never changed His mind. He taught the Kingdom Gospel Law... which judges the heart before the action ever happens... which will be used in the Kingdom, to protect the intended victim.

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Yes, but... Paul, whom Jesus sent out in his name preached to the Gentiles. IOW, a new paradigm was created out of the old. It was no longer just Israel.
Jesus does infer a new creation and other cultures. He said that there were “other sheep” who must hear his teachings. And when asked about the Law, he said, “Love God; love neighbor. All the Law and the prophets depend upon these two.” That introduced a new paradigm for the Law. It is, in effect (as I said), a new creation based on the old, but essentially different in scope and intent.

BilliardsBall said:

we Jewish people are not "intermingled everywhere".

Jesus's point was that it was inappropriate at the moment to heal the daughter of a Gentile, which speaks against this convert having Jewish blood.

hundreds of verses in the whole NT, including the four gospels, that clearly indicate 1) no one is saved by law keeping

There's barely anything Paul wrote that we cannot find verbatim in Tanakh.

There are no counter-documents to prove Paul

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1 Kings 3:1, 1 Kings 11:1-3, etc.

John 10:4 "And when He putteth forth His own sheep, He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers."

John 12:48 "He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." "If ye love Me, keep My commandments," says Jesus.

Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Exodus 31:18: “And He gave unto Moses, when He had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.”
vs
Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
vs
Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him. Jacob, Genesis 28:10-15

Because the seed was Isaac, and Isaac's seed Jacob. And obviously the unknown source that Luke is quoting all along is none other than Paul.

sojourner said:

Yes, but... Paul, whom Jesus sent out in his name preached to the Gentiles. IOW, a new paradigm was created out of the old. It was no longer just Israel.

Jesus does infer a new creation and other cultures. He said that there were “other sheep” who must hear his teachings.

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John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one Shepherd."

Deuteronomy 13:3 "for the Lord your God proveth you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

David T said:

So identical to most in physics we have a conditional or conceptual state state called "laws" of physics and those laws are followed by reality.... Is that about right?

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The Law of God is never a set of theories waiting to be proved.

OtherSheep said:

The Law of God is never a set of theories waiting to be proved.

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Exactly like a hard core physicist "laws of physics" . No wonder you all don't agree!!

QUOTE="blü 2, post: 5695900, member: 62549"]
OtherSheep said: ↑
The without-law-gospel is one of expediency tied to a lack of conscience.
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When it's asserted as eternal, god-given bible law, it's certainly self-serving and very probably expedient. It may or may not be without conscience, though.

God protects His own.
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OtherSheep said: ↑
While it claims that all things are lawful, it whines when it's disciples commit incest.
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Where does it say that?

"all things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient"
... "a man has his father's wife"... both in the same letter.
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OtherSheep said: ↑
The Law and the Prophets are eternal, insofar as they match what Jesus calls His own eternal words.
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Nothing is eternal. There are no moral absolutes ─ if you disagree, please state one. An onlooker could fairly point to your choice of Jesus as arbitrary, too, though the NT attributes to him a number of sayings I agree with. And there are things in the Tanakh I also agree with.

"Heaven and earth shall pass away,
but My words shall not pass away," says Jesus.
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OtherSheep said: ↑
(This means no Sodom
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Just call it homophobia. Don't bother with attempts to justify it scripturally ─ it's just personal intolerance and that expedience you mentioned. Homosexuality occurs throughout nature; it's an aspect of evolution that's simply there.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 is the reason for this "abomination".
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OtherSheep said: ↑
and no child-sactifice.
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So you like the idea of sacrificing the occasional adult human just to keep the ratings up? I'd call that sick.

Abortion is child-sacrifice.
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OtherSheep said: ↑
Those people will not be living in the Kingdom.
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I don't know why they'd want to. I wouldn't. Besides, I'm a democrat, not a monarchist. If I'm to be governed, I want a say in who governs and how. None of the ads for heaven seem to want to talk about the dictatorship aspect.

Democracy means that your rulers can be beasts with bucks.
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OtherSheep said: ↑
You and I disagree on every point, blü 2.
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Just about every point, it seems. Ah well.

Viola! nous sommes d'accord.
[/QUOTE]

BilliardsBall said:

In the four gospels, Jesus quotes prophecies referencing Himself that He would have two flocks including the Gentiles, and merge them. The fact that some apostles chose Jewish evangelism and others Gentile outreach is missing the fact that Paul still stayed in rabbis' houses after, preached in synagogues, and said he was working diligently via Gentile evangelism to reach Jews for salvation (Romans 10-11).

Jesus genuinely presented Himself to Israel, and per prophecy saved all people via the Cross as one result.

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This Fold is the Scattered House of Israel

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel."
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Drawn by the Law of the Father

John 6:44-45 "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned from the Father, cometh unto Me."
John 17:6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
John 15:3-4 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.

Through the Testimony of the 11

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world."

To Keep Jesus' Word

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.

Why is it so hard for people to believe that the races have mixed?
And Israel is scattered. He that hath an ear, let him hear.

OtherSheep said:

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one Shepherd."

Deuteronomy 13:3 "for the Lord your God proveth you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

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This doesn’t address my point.

QUOTE="sojourner, post: 5696837, member: 5010"]Yes, but... Paul, whom Jesus sent out in his name preached to the Gentiles. IOW, a new paradigm was created out of the old. It was no longer just Israel.
Jesus does infer a new creation and other cultures. He said that there were “other sheep” who must hear his teachings. And when asked about the Law, he said, “Love God; love neighbor. All the Law and the prophets depend upon these two.” That introduced a new paradigm for the Law. It is, in effect (as I said), a new creation based on the old, but essentially different in scope and intent.[/QUOTE
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QUOTE="OtherSheep, post: 5696973, member: 64612"]John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one Shepherd."

Deuteronomy 13:3 "for the Lord your God proveth you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."[/QUOTE
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QUOTE="sojourner, post: 5697111, member: 5010"]This doesn’t address my point.[/QUOTE
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We have one person telling us that Jesus chose Paul, and that is Paul himself. We never hear from Luke who his sources are. The men who were either standing with Paul or have fallen with Paul, or heard or didn't hear ... is such a jumbled account that no court of law would consider it even for a moment.

If you want to believe Paul's testimony of himself, that's entirely up to you. God warns us not to accept new religions. And what Paul is giving is entirely new to the followers of Moses. Jesus never broke Deuteronomy 13, but Paul destroys the First Testament that is used to prove him a false prophet. What he calls his mysteries and deep things prove him to be a false prophet.

Deuteronomy 13:1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God proveth you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

OtherSheep said:

This Fold is the Scattered House of Israel

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel."
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Drawn by the Law of the Father

John 6:44-45 "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned from the Father, cometh unto Me."
John 17:6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
John 15:3-4 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.

Through the Testimony of the 11

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world."

To Keep Jesus' Word

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.

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Hi,

I agree that Jesus presented Himself in the gospels to Israel, and also spoke of being crucified for Jews and Gentiles. I know that He also promised to be lifted up on the cross and then to draw all men to Himself.

I know that the commission in Matthew 28 is for Jesus's followers to disciples people from among the Gentiles, not just the Jews, and that Revelation promises that as we follow the Word, we gain open doors.

Is there something else I'm misunderstanding?

BilliardsBall said:

Hi,

I agree that Jesus presented Himself in the gospels to Israel, and also spoke of being crucified for Jews and Gentiles. I know that He also promised to be lifted up on the cross and then to draw all men to Himself.

I know that the commission in Matthew 28 is for Jesus's followers to disciples people from among the Gentiles, not just the Jews, and that Revelation promises that as we follow the Word, we gain open doors.

Is there something else I'm misunderstanding?

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Do you understand what Jesus means in these two verses?

"For many shall come in My name, saying, I am anointed*; and shall deceive many."-- Jesus, Matthew 24:5

John 5:43 "I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."
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* "many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ"... makes no sense at all. The word "christos" must be translated into "anointed".

"For many shall come in My name, saying, I am anointed*; and shall deceive many."-- Jesus, Matthew 24:5

John 5:43 "I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."
____________
* "many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ"... makes no sense at all.
The word "christos" must be translated into "anointed" to have any meaning.

If a person came in Jesus name, he could not be claiming to be Jesus. The person must be saying that he has a special anointing for a special task. If Jesus didn't send him, Jesus calls such a person the one who came in his own name. The First Testament calls such a person a false prophet.

exchemist said:

In bible speak, i.e. in the table of contents to my bible, I find that there are four gospels.

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To me, there are four gospel accounts:
The gospel according to Matthew
The gospel according to Mark
The gospel according to Luke
The gospel according to John
Any thoughts about Romans 15:19 B; 2 Corinthians 2:12; 9:13; 10:14; 1 Thessalonians 3:2

Truthseeker9 said:

Whenever a Messenger comes he annuls the old. Spiritually the old heaven and earth pass away and a new one is put in it's place. Earth is the knowledge of God, and heaven are the laws of God.

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First of all, I find the 'Earth abides forever' as per Ecclesiastes 1:4 B.
Earth then is permanent as per Psalms 104:5,35.
So, the OLD Earth is the Earth referred to at 2nd Peter 3:5 in Noah's day, and Not another planet coming.
The old heaven and Earth of Noah's day is No more.
Since Noah's day we have the heavens and earth of NOW as per 2 Peter 3:7, while awaiting 2 Peter 3:13.
The NEW heavens and earth is the coming new society of people of good will such as those of Matthew 25:37,40.
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
So, in that way we will have a New Earth or New earthly society with No wicked ones as per Proverbs 2:21-22.

Truthseeker9 said:

He said that the law hung on the two, so there are more than two. Christ wanted His followers to obey the ten commandments, plus some other laws that Christ introduced, like not getting divorced.

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Divorce was allowed according to Deuteronomy 24:1.
Besides the first ten, there were over 600 laws under the temporary constitution of the Mosaic Law.
Christ 'allowed' for divorce on the grounds of fornication (porneia) as per Matthew 5:31 and Matthew 19:9.
The reason the word adultery is Not used is because ' porneia ' cover more ground than just adultery.
Scriptural grounds for divorce would include any un-natural sex including having sex with an animal would be ' porneia' as grounds for scriptural divorce.

URAVIP2ME said:

Any thoughts about Romans 15:19 B; 2 Corinthians 2:12; 9:13; 10:14; 1 Thessalonians 3:2

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Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoureth Me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from Me. 9 But in vain they do worship Me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Philippians 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.