Liberal Only: It isn't fun being in America right now

Quetzal said:

Preface: This is in the liberal only section. I do not care to hear anything out of anyone right of center. This isn't a discussion or a debate that I want you to be a part of.

It isn't fun being in America right now. Since 2016 things have been different. Maybe I wasn't paying attention before then, but since I have noticed some uncomfortable things.

I can't watch or look at news outlets anymore. Any of them. Every time I do, it turns into an immediate regret as our President has found yet another way to make an *** of himself. Further, he is determined to take America with him. Any sort of summit or gathering with another nation or a group of nations I find myself pleading in my own head "Just... don't lose faith in the American people. We are better than that."

But are we?

Any website you go to, any sort of media that is consumed; it is everywhere. Bigotry, lack of compassion, hatred. It is as common as a Dandelion in April. You can't escape it and it spreads. Collaboration and civil discussion are rare, if you are lucky to find it please tell me where to look.

Perhaps if I unplug for a bit?

Certainly the internet makes it worse than what it is. Well, I live in a small down about an hour south of Washington DC. It isn't any better out there. Trump 2020 bumper stickers are common here. Trump/Pence campaign signs are still on front lawns. NRA catch phrases such as "STAND AND FIGHT" are plastered on any vehicle with a motor.

I drove past the flea market the other day. When my dad was alive, that was one of our favorite things to do. I don't want to go there any more. The biggest attraction is a shed decorated on all sides with "Don't Tread on Me" and, my personal favorite, Confederate Flags with the Nazi emblem in the middle.

What is this? Where did this come from? I can't get away from it. It is everywhere and like cockroaches it doesn't seem to go away. Why is everyone so angry?

I want to believe we are better but I am unsure. We, literally, have Nazi's running for political office. What's worse? There is this pit in my stomach that thinks they just might win.

Now, if you showed me this post in 2015, I would not have believed it. In what world are you dragging this demented fantasy from? Certainly, this isn't the case. A few confederate flags, sure. An occasional racist uncle from two blocks over? Okay, fine. But not like I see it is now.

It feels like the world is moving forward while we are trying our hardest to go back. It really... sucks.

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This is a great post and I feel exactly the way you do. btw, my brother-in-law lives in Spotsylvania probably near you. Anyway, here is a really good article critiquing what is going on:

https://truthout.org/articles/henry...ies-demand-we-make-truth-telling-great-again/

I've studied right wing phenomena for a number of years. You might find this thread interesting that I created on propaganda being used in the United States:

What does it mean to "wake up" from the Matrix

Trump follows Le Bon's book to the letter. He uses all kinds of techniques outlined like scape goating to rise to power.

Le Bon's book in PDF form (not that anyone reads books anymore):

https://socialsciences.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/lebon/Crowds.pdf

You commentary really makes me think of feelings I've had like we lost WWII and the WWII Germans took over this country. Check out this video from the classic Alfred Hitchcock move The Saboteur:


You and I are "ardent Americans". "They get things done." "If we should win I will come back"

The other thing that hurts this country is the way gerrymandering is wildly out of control. Here is a quote from David R. Lewis a Republican from North Carolina on gerrymandering, "We draw the maps to give a partisan advantage to 10 Republicans and three Democrats because I do not believe it’s possible to draw a map with 11 Republicans and two Democrats.” The Supreme court is supposed to have a ruling on partisan gerrymandering. But the judges are all in the corporation's pockets. I doubt the judges will vote in favor of democracy.

Another thing that bothers me is how the Democrat party is really run by Republicans. The Democrat party has been destroyed. Here is the words from FDR from the 1936 Democrat National Convention. How far are we from any Democrat espousing this kind of rhetoric:

"An old English judge once said: 'Necessitous men are not free men.' Liberty requires opportunity to make a living - a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of government."

But do not worry my comrade. Marx always said laissez-faire capitalism is always followed by communism. This is because unfettered greed would result in the government's currency collapsing to nothing in value. Paradoxically, the more money is concentrated into fewer and fewer hands it becomes less valuable. Probably because people don't see the point in being greedy about getting it when everything costs so much. Once the currency collapses, people in bread lines will demand MORE government not less. See you in the breadlines comrades!

It's just a matter of time before FDR type politicians become relevant again and we return to 90% marginal tax rates. Just look how well Bernie Sanders has done. He had thousands of people showing up at his rallies.

Maybe if we stopped dropping 35,000 bombs every year in the Middle East we would have enough money to make our lives better. One can only hope.

Hi Quetzal,

Quetzal said:

Preface: This is in the liberal only section. I do not care to hear anything out of anyone right of center. This isn't a discussion or a debate that I want you to be a part of.

It isn't fun being in America right now. Since 2016 things have been different. Maybe I wasn't paying attention before then, but since I have noticed some uncomfortable things.

I can't watch or look at news outlets anymore. Any of them. Every time I do, it turns into an immediate regret as our President has found yet another way to make an *** of himself. Further, he is determined to take America with him. Any sort of summit or gathering with another nation or a group of nations I find myself pleading in my own head "Just... don't lose faith in the American people. We are better than that."

But are we?

Any website you go to, any sort of media that is consumed; it is everywhere. Bigotry, lack of compassion, hatred. It is as common as a Dandelion in April. You can't escape it and it spreads. Collaboration and civil discussion are rare, if you are lucky to find it please tell me where to look.

Perhaps if I unplug for a bit?

Certainly the internet makes it worse than what it is. Well, I live in a small down about an hour south of Washington DC. It isn't any better out there. Trump 2020 bumper stickers are common here. Trump/Pence campaign signs are still on front lawns. NRA catch phrases such as "STAND AND FIGHT" are plastered on any vehicle with a motor.

I drove past the flea market the other day. When my dad was alive, that was one of our favorite things to do. I don't want to go there any more. The biggest attraction is a shed decorated on all sides with "Don't Tread on Me" and, my personal favorite, Confederate Flags with the Nazi emblem in the middle.

What is this? Where did this come from? I can't get away from it. It is everywhere and like cockroaches it doesn't seem to go away. Why is everyone so angry?

I want to believe we are better but I am unsure. We, literally, have Nazi's running for political office. What's worse? There is this pit in my stomach that thinks they just might win.

Now, if you showed me this post in 2015, I would not have believed it. In what world are you dragging this demented fantasy from? Certainly, this isn't the case. A few confederate flags, sure. An occasional racist uncle from two blocks over? Okay, fine. But not like I see it is now.

It feels like the world is moving forward while we are trying our hardest to go back. It really... sucks.

Click to expand...

It really does. I for one did pay attention during the 2016 campaign. I remember getting no sleep the night Trump won the election because I saw this coming. I did my homework, and even if I didn't it frankly wasn't very hard to see how bad a Trump presidency would be.

There are two kinds of Trump supporters, best I can tell. The deplorables are the white supremacists, nationalists, and others who form his core base of support. There's basically nothing we can really do about them; it would take something truly extraordinary to wake someone up in that low a level of awareness and empathy. And then there are those who are deluded rather than deplorable. The people who, under normal circumstances, can be decent people and even perhaps intelligent and reasonable. But also the people who were fooled, who drank the Kool Aid of Fox News et al, and who now live in a fantasy bubble where Trump's magically transformed into an ok guy while his detractors are all somehow perceived to be the crazy ones. This latter group includes people who might sympathize with, for instance, the devastated families and traumatized children at the border, while simultaneously not recognizing the role Trump has had to play in causing this tragedy in the first place. And yet, in spite of their capacity to sympathize, they voted for, and may continue to vote for, the wrong people who institute those tragedies.

I think it's important for us to try to be creative in coming up with ways to reach those in the latter category. As I write this, I continue to struggle with ways to do so. But I think it's very important to somehow get these people to wake up to the fact that they need to better educate themselves on current events and American history, to teach them to strengthen their critical thinking and independent research skills. I'm really not sure how to convince someone the truth of this when they're utterly convinced they actually have the correct perception of events, even though as a person who has been university-trained in historical research and critical thinking skills, I know very well they're absolutely deluded with respect to Trump. Ever since the earliest moments of Trump's campaigning he touted his border wall agenda... an idea entirely rooted in sheer nonsense. It's an idea only an entirely uninformed moron could conjure up, and that only an uninformed public could find appealing, as it "sounds" like something that could hinder migration. After performing some serious research on the subject of the border and illegal immigration, one must certainly conclude that the border wall idea is a complete waste of tax dollars since it does not actually address a real problem. In fact, it might actually exacerbate the very issue it's claimed to deter... but that's a subject for another topic.

As for the racism and other forms of bigotry, one of the reasons why I did not sleep the night of the election was the realization that we have not made as much social progress as I had thought. I thought racism and misogyny, while clearly still existent, were waning to such a degree... only to find out it's far more prevalent still than I'd thought. It was like suddenly waking up to the fact that I don't actually live in 2016 (at the time), but in 1976, as far as the racism/misogyny meter goes. I've posted elsewhere some of the research I've done since, which shows that rather than being some kind of new and sudden surge of bigotry, the bigotry we are seeing proudly displayed since Trump's campaigning actually has been there for decades. It just had been more hidden under the radar. These deplorables were simply afraid to admit who they were. But they were there nonetheless. Trump has only emboldened them to be more outspoken about their bigotry, that's the only difference now.

The good news is that at least we're now aware of the problem, rather than blissfully ignorant of it as we had been prior to 2016. We cannot attack a problem without first becoming aware of it.

Kartari said:

And then there are those who are deluded rather than deplorable. The people who, under normal circumstances, can be decent people and even perhaps intelligent and reasonable. But also the people who were fooled, who drank the Kool Aid of Fox News et al, and who now live in a fantasy bubble where Trump's magically transformed into an ok guy while his detractors are all somehow perceived to be the crazy ones. This latter group includes people who might sympathize with, for instance, the devastated families and traumatized children at the border, while simultaneously not recognizing the role Trump has had to play in causing this tragedy in the first place. And yet, in spite of their capacity to sympathize, they voted for, and may continue to vote for, the wrong people who institute those tragedies.

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I would like to add that a number of Trump voters gave him their support because they did not like Hillary. Which I find to be a perfectly fair position. However, more recently, I look to these folks with an optimistic hope that they see the same flaws we do. Most of them seem to acknowledge that, which is a nice plus.

Kartari said:

I think it's important for us to try to be creative in coming up with ways to reach those in the latter category. As I write this, I continue to struggle with ways to do so. But I think it's very important to somehow get these people to wake up to the fact that they need to better educate themselves on current events and American history, to teach them to strengthen their critical thinking and independent research skills. I'm really not sure how to convince someone the truth of this when they're utterly convinced they actually have the correct perception of events, even though as a person who has been university-trained in historical research and critical thinking skills, I know very well they're absolutely deluded with respect to Trump. Ever since the earliest moments of Trump's campaigning he touted his border wall agenda... an idea entirely rooted in sheer nonsense. It's an idea only an entirely uninformed moron could conjure up, and that only an uninformed public could find appealing, as it "sounds" like something that could hinder migration. After performing some serious research on the subject of the border and illegal immigration, one must certainly conclude that the border wall idea is a complete waste of tax dollars since it does not actually address a real problem. In fact, it might actually exacerbate the very issue it's claimed to deter... but that's a subject for another topic.

Click to expand...

A good strategy I have found for these discussions is being empathetic to them in regards to their initial vote. "I totally get it, I was not a big fan of Hillary either, but can we both agree that there is a better way to tackle this immigration issue?" Most folks have been pretty receptive to this. It creates common ground which, as I am sure you know, is really important right now.

Kartari said:

The good news is that at least we're now aware of the problem, rather than blissfully ignorant of it as we had been prior to 2016. We cannot attack a problem without first becoming aware of it.

Click to expand...

Right. My hope is that the Democrats can find themselves a candidate that can speak to those who might be lost in the fray. That is, speaking to the interests of the everyday man instead of Wall Street. I am cautiously optimistic that 2020 will be better.

Hi Quetzal,

Quetzal said:

I would like to add that a number of Trump voters gave him their support because they did not like Hillary. Which I find to be a perfectly fair position. However, more recently, I look to these folks with an optimistic hope that they see the same flaws we do. Most of them seem to acknowledge that, which is a nice plus.

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Under different circumstances, I would of course understand this position as well. I was not a fan at all of Hillary either.

Yet there was a truly vast gap between the two candidates, to those who bothered to read and pay attention at least somewhat. Trump made Hillary look like an angel, quite frankly. Voting for Trump was like voting for Sauron over Frodo because you didn't like how Frodo treated Sam at certain points. Truly a mind-blowing degree of illogic which continues to astound me, to be honest. I just cannot wrap my mind around it. I am often reminded of a quote by Charles Babbage, inventor of the first mechanical calculator in the 1830's, "On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."

As for Trump supporters who acknowledge his flaws, I'm glad you've found some. I am not so optimistic though about the group as a whole. For starters, I've had the opposite personal experience. The last two people I debated who were Trump supporters both grossly underplayed Trump's flaws, if they even acknowledged them at all. One basically saw him as a decent president, just with a potty mouth. Which is quite an astounding departure from reality, to put it diplomatically. Personal experiences aside, the last polls I checked out, which were within the last month, showed something like 85-90% of Republicans still approve of Trump. This scares the hell out of me, quite frankly. And I don't believe in hell, lol. That should be the number who disapprove of him by now, at the very least.

A good strategy I have found for these discussions is being empathetic to them in regards to their initial vote. "I totally get it, I was not a big fan of Hillary either, but can we both agree that there is a better way to tackle this immigration issue?" Most folks have been pretty receptive to this. It creates common ground which, as I am sure you know, is really important right now.

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I agree it would create common ground. I kinda wish I could honestly do that. What I struggle with is that I just cannot for the life of me get how anyone in their right mind could equivocate between the two candidates, and even moreso still regard Trump as a supportable president now.

Right. My hope is that the Democrats can find themselves a candidate that can speak to those who might be lost in the fray. That is, speaking to the interests of the everyday man instead of Wall Street. I am cautiously optimistic that 2020 will be better.

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Agreed. The Democratic party really needs to find a much better candidate next time around. Bernie Sanders may run again. He's pretty left-leaning, but he does speak to the common person's interests and has tried to address some of our most pressing and real concerns. If they can find a more centrist candidate with a broader base of support who is also a solid candidate this time around, that might be even better perhaps.