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I want to be nice to God!

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Have you read this post, which deals with this problem?
Do you understand why you have to "deal with the problem" in the first place? Because there is a problem, plain and simple.

I read your post, and it boils down to "there is a footnote" (in one particular version). Nice. All we are expected to do to understand, then, is to wade through all of the translations and scholarly notes until we find this important footnote. So convenient! Not only that, but a footnote is not actually evidence that the idiom being cited is an actual "thing" in Aramaic. Do you have a listing of Aramaic/Hebrew idioms on hand from around the time the original text was written to actually verify this? Point being: can we just take the word of whoever wrote this footnote and not suspect that they may have been attempting to artificially soften an otherwise harsh passage? Why don't other translations take advantage of this idea and have their own footnotes alleviating the problem as well? If a direct/literal translation is NOT GOOD ENOUGH to render the true meaning of a phrase, why should it not be amended? Isn't God supposedly on top of this stuff? Intervening or inspiring as necessary? With issues like these, it certainly appears not.
 
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Earthling

David Henson
Do you understand why you have to "deal with the problem" in the first place? Because there is a problem, plain and simple.

I read your post, and it boils down to "there is a footnote" (in one particular version). Nice. All we are expected to do to understand, then, is to wade through all of the translations and scholarly notes until we find this important footnote. So convenient! Not only that, but a footnote is not actually evidence that the idiom being cited is an actual "thing" in Aramaic. Do you have a listing of Aramaic/Hebrew idioms on hand from around the time the original text was written to actually verify this? Point being: can we just take the word of whoever wrote this footnote and not suspect that they may have been attempting to artificially soften an otherwise harsh passage? Why don't other translations take advantage of this idea and have their own footnotes alleviating the problem as well? If a direct/literal translation is NOT GOOD ENOUGH to render the true meaning of a phrase, why should it not be amended? Isn't God supposedly on top of this stuff? Intervening or inspiring as necessary? With issues like these, it certainly appears not.

Let me ask you something. Are you an atheist? Do you believe in evolution?
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Ahhh…. evolution...those non-created creatures that evolved on their own without any assistance from `God`. Does one have to be an atheist to believe in evolution ? Does one have to believe in `God` ? Does one have to believe in creation to believe in ….. well you get my gist don't you ?
 

Earthling

David Henson
Ahhh…. evolution...those non-created creatures that evolved on their own without any assistance from `God`. Does one have to be an atheist to believe in evolution ? Does one have to believe in `God` ? Does one have to believe in creation to believe in ….. well you get my gist don't you ?

No, I don't listen to you people any more. I don't trust you. I don't like you. I won't waste my time with you. Got it?
 

Earthling

David Henson
Ahhh...ears that will not hear...minds that will not think.

I listened and a saw for 25 years and then stopped because you all are dishonest, smug, self righteous, ignorant hypocrites. All of you. Because, you have your agenda. Which is, get rid of what I believe and hold true. Because it interferes with your own beliefs. Which are, stupid.

People, if you are going to get censored or banned or offend someone for telling the truth, then tell the truth and get censored, banned and offend. Truth is always best.
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Let me ask you something. Are you an atheist? Do you believe in evolution?
I am an atheist, yes. And evolution has reams and reams of evidence beyond text - if that is where you're going. Absolute gobs of evidence. Physical evidence. As in real and tangible. Not just words written down, but comparisons of DNA, comparison of bone structures, vestigial organs and bones, progressions to be seen of features like eyes - from the most basic to the most complex, the forced breeding and transformation seen in domesticated feline and canine populations, bacteria strains changing and becoming adapted to various life-threatening conditions (like our antibiotics), progression of changes in human skeletal remains, etc. etc. etc. etc. Where is there anything similar as evidence of your religious beliefs? Now I am not talking that the historical record in The Bible ends up being accurate sometimes or portraying actual people/places. I'm talking about evidence that your specific beliefs about God are true.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I listened and a saw for 25 years and then stopped because you all are dishonest, smug, self righteous, ignorant hypocrites. All of you. Because, you have your agenda. Which is, get rid of what I believe and hold true. Because it interferes with your own beliefs. Which are, stupid.

People, if you are going to get censored or banned or offend someone for telling the truth, then tell the truth and get censored, banned and offend. Truth is always best.
I hope you aren't talking about my grandad @'mud! :D
He's one of my favorite posters, puts up with my eccentric ways, and so I hope he lives to be 100 and that I die before he does.
Couldn't imagine life without him! :glomp:

If he doesn't get to heaven or inherit the earth, well, that is a God who is a lot more cruel and unjust than myself, Mud, or the average atheist I've met for that matter! :mad:

Isn't God love, mercy, compassion, loves his enemies, and forgives 70×7 and beyond? :shrug:
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Study with time and good teachers...
"Study, time, and Good teachers" are going to teach me that killing women, children, and babies is okay?
"Good teachers" are going to teach me that killing children for disrespecting their parents, stoning adulterers, killing homosexuals, killing pagans, killing someone for touching a box, burning people for not burning incense the right way, or killing people for working on the wrong day of the week, is okay, as long as you take it in it's proper context
???

I don't think so!

But I like that you mentioned Saul, who became Paul. I live in the city of "Saint Paul" and go to Church at the "Cathedral of Saint Paul". I'm a big fan of his story! :)

But I will do what my heart, mind, conscience, morals, and ethics tells me to do when it comes to Religion. If I am going to condemn what Taliban, ISIS, and radical Muslims do...if I'm going to condemn hatred, bigotry, and violence in the Qu'ran, then I have to condemn the same behaviors when I see them in the Bible...otherwise, that makes me the epitome of a "Hypocrite"! ;)

Regarding why I pray to the dead, there are many reasons. Every Christian Church on earth approved of such practices for over much more than a thousand years before the first Protestant Church was invented.

Also, I had some coincidences which won't make sense to you, but really make sense to and speak to me. In jail, I felt strongly the presence of and had visions of someone who was murdered in 1974. Then I found a 1974 coin. It was the only coin I saw in jail. I asked my Dad what this person's last name was, he said "It's Swedish, did you know you have Swedish on your Mom's side". I didn't know that. And the football team here is called "The Vikings". The people of Sweden were at one time Vikings. On this memorial weekend, I found a military Jacket with badges on the ground, and stumbled upon two war memorials on accident. Many other coincidences like this took place, which convinced me completely that something supernatural was involved.

Also,
I've thoroughly studied miracles like this and fulfilled prophecies, and am entirely convinced there is something supernatural going on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Lourdes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe

I've studied things like that, watched documentaries, read books, and been to monasteries where monks pray night and day and serve the poor, and read about many incredible Saints, read their writings, as well as miracles attributed to them, and am convinced that there is something supernatural going on with them as well.

So, my convictions cannot be altered unless God tells me differently. It seems clear he is telling me to keep many of the convictions I have! ;)
A man once asked the questions
(Job 4:17) ‘Can a mortal man be more righteous than God? Can a man be cleaner than his own Maker?’

Another asked
(Job 35:2, 3) 2 “Are you so convinced that you are right that you would say, ‘I am more righteous than God’?

If we answer yes, would that not be the same as saying, we know better, and our wisdom is far superior - we have, or we know all the facts?

Sometimes we may look at a situation and judge it, but we can only judge it based on what we perceive or think we know, and in most cases, we really do not have all the facts.

Here are some facts we can never have.
1. We can't read hearts
2. We can't tell the future.

Compare that to God. Where do we stand? Far inferior.
God can both read hearts, and tell the future.

Is the God of the Bible the same God of love some say they know and love?
I think that would depend.
Did one make their own God, so that he is a God that only does what they think is right? Then I think that person's God is not the supreme universal king - but a mortal imagination?
If the supreme universal king is love, and cares about his children, then I think we are the ones who need to accept him as he is, and as he reveals himself - which I think any loving and caring father would do.

The God of the Bible, is the God of love, as far as I see.
Take just two of your arguments...
#1
So a man tries to steady a box... No, that's not what the text says. It reads (2 Samuel 6:6, 7)
6 And when they came to Nachon’s threshing floor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen shook it.
7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there for his effrontery, and there he died by the ark of God.


Not a box, but the Ark of the true God - no one was allowed to touch.
Did God act as a blood thirsty killer of the innocent?
God smote him there for his effrontery... (Most Bibles use "irreverence" or "lack of respect"

effrontery
noun
insolent (showing a rude and arrogant lack of respect) or impertinent behavior (not showing proper respect; rude)

Apparently God saw what we didn't see - the heart.

#2
God kills babies - [all the firstborn of Egypt] - innocent, you say.

The Bible does say that God shows mercy, and he decides whom he extends it to.
(Romans 9:14-18)
. . .What are we to say, then? Is there injustice with God? Certainly not!
15 For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I
will show compassion.”
16 So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.
17 For the scripture says to Pharʹaoh: “For this very reason I have let you remain: to show my power in connection
with you and to have my name declared in all the earth.”
18So, then, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, but he lets whomever he wishes become obstinate.

Other accounts in the Bible, shows us apparently, that again, God takes into account the heart condition of people.

The Ninevites were ruthless, and barbaric, yet when their softened - not hardened - softened their heart, God extended mercy to them. Jonah 3:5-7, 10

The scriptures show, evidently, that God did not cause Pharaoh to be stubborn. Rather he let him remain that way.
(Exodus 9:15-17) . . .For by now I could have thrust my hand out to strike you and your people with a devastating plague, and you would have been wiped out from the earth. 16 But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth. 17Are you still behaving arrogantly against my people by not sending them away?

Apparently God saw what we didn't see - the heart.

Regarding the children, it would be good to consider this account...
Genesis 19:4, 5
4 Before they could lie down to sleep, all the men – both young and old, from every part of the city of Sodomsurrounded the house. 5 They shouted to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!”

How is it the young ones are involved in this behavior? It is a fact that young ones imitate what they see?
So I think this is one thing we can take into consideration - God not only sees the heart, he sees the future also.

Along with what was said earlier - God shows mercy to whom he chooses. None of us deserve it.

I know this may still not satisfy you, but I was thinking of you, and decided I would try one last time to see if any answer might help put a spin on your perspective.
:)
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
A man once asked the questions
(Job 4:17) ‘Can a mortal man be more righteous than God? Can a man be cleaner than his own Maker?’

Another asked
(Job 35:2, 3) 2 “Are you so convinced that you are right that you would say, ‘I am more righteous than God’?

If we answer yes, would that not be the same as saying, we know better, and our wisdom is far superior - we have, or we know all the facts?

Sometimes we may look at a situation and judge it, but we can only judge it based on what we perceive or think we know, and in most cases, we really do not have all the facts.

Here are some facts we can never have.
1. We can't read hearts
2. We can't tell the future.

Compare that to God. Where do we stand? Far inferior.
God can both read hearts, and tell the future.

Is the God of the Bible the same God of love some say they know and love?
I think that would depend.
Did one make their own God, so that he is a God that only does what they think is right? Then I think that person's God is not the supreme universal king - but a mortal imagination?
If the supreme universal king is love, and cares about his children, then I think we are the ones who need to accept him as he is, and as he reveals himself - which I think any loving and caring father would do.

The God of the Bible, is the God of love, as far as I see.
Take just two of your arguments...
#1
So a man tries to steady a box... No, that's not what the text says. It reads (2 Samuel 6:6, 7)
6 And when they came to Nachon’s threshing floor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen shook it.
7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there for his effrontery, and there he died by the ark of God.


Not a box, but the Ark of the true God - no one was allowed to touch.
Did God act as a blood thirsty killer of the innocent?
God smote him there for his effrontery... (Most Bibles use "irreverence" or "lack of respect"

effrontery
noun
insolent (showing a rude and arrogant lack of respect) or impertinent behavior (not showing proper respect; rude)

Apparently God saw what we didn't see - the heart.

#2
God kills babies - [all the firstborn of Egypt] - innocent, you say.

The Bible does say that God shows mercy, and he decides whom he extends it to.
(Romans 9:14-18)
. . .What are we to say, then? Is there injustice with God? Certainly not!
15 For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I
will show compassion.”
16 So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.
17 For the scripture says to Pharʹaoh: “For this very reason I have let you remain: to show my power in connection
with you and to have my name declared in all the earth.”
18So, then, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, but he lets whomever he wishes become obstinate.

Other accounts in the Bible, shows us apparently, that again, God takes into account the heart condition of people.

The Ninevites were ruthless, and barbaric, yet when their softened - not hardened - softened their heart, God extended mercy to them. Jonah 3:5-7, 10

The scriptures show, evidently, that God did not cause Pharaoh to be stubborn. Rather he let him remain that way.
(Exodus 9:15-17) . . .For by now I could have thrust my hand out to strike you and your people with a devastating plague, and you would have been wiped out from the earth. 16 But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth. 17Are you still behaving arrogantly against my people by not sending them away?

Apparently God saw what we didn't see - the heart.

Regarding the children, it would be good to consider this account...
Genesis 19:4, 5
4 Before they could lie down to sleep, all the men – both young and old, from every part of the city of Sodomsurrounded the house. 5 They shouted to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!”

How is it the young ones are involved in this behavior? It is a fact that young ones imitate what they see?
So I think this is one thing we can take into consideration - God not only sees the heart, he sees the future also.

Along with what was said earlier - God shows mercy to whom he chooses. None of us deserve it.

I know this may still not satisfy you, but I was thinking of you, and decided I would try one last time to see if any answer might help put a spin on your perspective.
:)
Your answers are good, but we don't really know im fighting against God, because we don't actually know God did any of that.

We don't know God flooded the world, or Noah lived 900+ years (without toothbrush, toothpaste, dentist, or Doctors), the red sea parted, or Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a sea creature.

It sounds extremely far-fetched, but anything is possible.

I'm sure I don't know better than God, but I also don't know Scripture is without error, or always creating the right picture.

Bottom line is, I can't condemn groups like ISIS while defending similar behavior in Scripture. That is Hypocrisy! ;)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Your answers are good, but we don't really know im fighting against God, because we don't actually know God did any of that.

We don't know God flooded the world, or Noah lived 900+ years (without toothbrush, toothpaste, dentist, or Doctors), the red sea parted, or Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a sea creature.

It sounds extremely far-fetched, but anything is possible.

I'm sure I don't know better than God, but I also don't know Scripture is without error, or always creating the right picture.

Bottom line is, I can't condemn groups like ISIS while defending similar behavior in Scripture. That is Hypocrisy! ;)
You also don't know if you are right about your view about the Bible. However, I don't want to in any way interfere with your conscience - just giving you things to think about.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
You also don't know if you are right about your view about the Bible. However, I don't want to in any way interfere with your conscience - just giving you things to think about.
Thanks!

I don't know i'm right.

What I do know is that I should not do some of the things that God approved of in Scripture.

Not only is it illegal, but there are some very kind, meek, humble loveable Idolators out there. There was a time God approved of killing them.

I don't want to assume such things about God.

I'll pray God give me the grace to do his will and obey him! :)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Thanks!

I don't know i'm right.

What I do know is that I should not do some of the things that God approved of in Scripture.

Not only is it illegal, but there are some very kind, meek, humble loveable Idolators out there. There was a time God approved of killing them.

I don't want to assume such things about God.

I'll pray God give me the grace to do his will and obey him! :)
:thumbsup:
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So, @KenS
If God is killing innocent people that haven't even sinned, and being cruel, inhumane, intolerant, bigoted, and bloodthirsty...

... then hardening hearts and punnishing innocent people for a leader's hardness of heart,

Don't you feel that such a God needs to be called out on his sick, inhumane, cruel, unjust crimes against humanity?

Don't you think such a God could learn a thing or two from people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King? Or nonviolent people who don't inflict violence on others, have a moral compass, forgive their enemies, and follow the golden rule, treating people as they want to be treated?

The God of Scripture could really learn a few lessons about charity and compassion from his creatures! ;)

Not really. Our perspective is limited while His is all encompassing. If you had a chance to kill Hitler when he was an innocent child knowing he would eventually murder millions of innocent people... what would you do?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Not really. Our perspective is limited while His is all encompassing. If you had a chance to kill Hitler when he was an innocent child knowing he would eventually murder millions of innocent people... what would you do?
Maybe Hitler did the will of God?

I mean, God certainly committed genocide in the Bible. Maybe God is entertained by military Dictators who rise to power and cause great wars. God raised up military Dictators in the Old Testament and used them to create bloodbaths.

It could be all fun and games to God. War movies are fun to watch, and reading books about survivors of wars or death camps can be quite enriching, so World War 2 could have been for God's enjoyment, entertainment, and amusement. After reading the Bible and Qur'an, I wouldn't put it past him! ;)
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Ahhhh….Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Stalin, and that Japanese fella....
They did the `will` of `God ?.....really ?
From where did their `will` come, not `God`, but other men,
other men and Life's torments and favors, and other `good` men.
I really think that no `gods` had anything to with the torment and pain.
It is the remaining `evil` men that are still here, that do these acts,
and many more will come, sad to say, they are part of the Stuff we Live in.
No imaginary `gods` will help us, we are on our own, using our own will.
We must help ourselves, no-one out there to help any more, never was.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yes, of course, i would want Hitler to die as a baby.

But apparently God didn't want that or he would have put him out of his misery as a child!
no... it is still called "man has dominion" (Gen through Rev). Just don't judge God if you would do the same. :)
 
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