Do Members of Jehovah's Witness Celebrate the US Independence Day?

siti · Jul 9, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
That’s just it...it is “reasonable” deduction.
Our JW Broadcasting for this month highlights that very idea, asking ourselves ‘how, what, when, where, and why’ when meditating on Biblical accounts.

So your interpretation is based on speculation about how, when and where (in particular) the resurrection will take place? Because there is no scriptural basis for assuming (a) on earth (b) when or (c) in what manner the resurrection will take place - in any of the verses you have cited in support of your speculative interpretation is there? Try reading 1 Corinthians 15 a bit further down than the verses you cited earlier - or did your JW Broadcasting (whatever that is) not also mention the importance of reading the context? I'm guessing it probably did.

Hockeycowboy said:
It’s obvious you never did have a strong relationship with Jehovah. What was it that took you out of the truth, a desire for immoral sex? That is usually what’s behind it.

Is that right? Well perhaps if Jehovah paid a bit less attention to what humans do with their genitals, some of his "witnesses" might also elevate their thinking above the level of their navels. Or perhaps not - that's entirely in your court. But remember all I did initially was to request a scriptural basis for the statement you had made concerning the dead from thousands of years ago being raised with their memories restored. So far, you have responded quite rudely (which doesn't bother me personally - but I don't think that's what we used to recommend in giving a witness - and I'm pretty sure that's not the approach recommended in JW broadcasting nowadays either.

John53 · Jul 9, 2018

siti said:
So far, you have responded quite rudely (which doesn't bother me personally - but I don't think that's what we used to recommend in giving a witness - and I'm pretty sure that's not the approach recommended in JW broadcasting nowadays either.

I don't agree with this part, it's my experience that anyone who doesn't agree with them is attacked.

siti · Jul 9, 2018

John53 said:
I don't agree with this part, it's my experience that anyone who doesn't agree with them is attacked.

Well - let's see if @Hockeycowboy can manage to tone down the gratuitous ad hominen and answer the question truthfully - not holding my breath but you never know.

Incidentally, as you may have gathered from his comments, I was a JW a long time ago - but I would never have responded to a former believer or anyone else with what he just posted in response to me - even if I knew it to be true - but like he says - maybe my relationship with Jehovah was never strong enough to enable me to be so rude - and certainly not just because someone calls me on an unsubstantiated statement. Who knows? Maybe they're just made of different stuff these days.

Hockeycowboy · Jul 9, 2018

siti said:
So your interpretation is based on speculation about how, when and where (in particular) the resurrection will take place? Because there is no scriptural basis for assuming (a) on earth (b) when or (c) in what manner the resurrection will take place - in any of the verses you have cited in support of your speculative interpretation is there? Try reading 1 Corinthians 15 a bit further down than the verses you cited earlier - or did your JW Broadcasting (whatever that is) not also mention the importance of reading the context? I'm guessing it probably did.

Is that right? Well perhaps if Jehovah paid a bit less attention to what humans do with their genitals, some of his "witnesses" might also elevate their thinking above the level of their navels. Or perhaps not - that's entirely in your court. But remember all I did initially was to request a scriptural basis for the statement you had made concerning the dead from thousands of years ago being raised with their memories restored. So far, you have responded quite rudely (which doesn't bother me personally - but I don't think that's what we used to recommend in giving a witness - and I'm pretty sure that's not the approach recommended in JW broadcasting nowadays either.

You were once a Witness .... at least, that is what you’ve led us to believe. Am I wrong? Did you not dedicate your life to Jehovah?

On top of that, you admit to scoffing. Those are apostate behaviors.

I really don’t think anyone appreciates traitors. And it’s not just treason against some man-made country. It’s treason against Jehovah God!

Hockeycowboy · Jul 9, 2018

John53 said:
That is a ridiculous argument. Every organisation in the world could do the same thing.

“Could do”, isn’t does.

siti · Jul 9, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
You were once a Witness .... at least, that is what you’ve led us to believe. Am I wrong? Did you not dedicate your life to Jehovah?

On top of that, you admit to scoffing. Those are apostate behaviors.

I really don’t think anyone appreciates traitors. And it’s not just treason against some man-made country. It’s treason against Jehovah God!

Well there you go! Still no scriptural response to the question. And now, for the unforgivable sin of asking for the scriptural basis on which a claim about the resurrection is made, I am adjudged to be an immoral apostate traitor! So much for Jesus' counsel at Matthew 7:1-2!

John53 · Jul 9, 2018

siti said:
Well there you go! Still no scriptural response to the question. And now, for the unforgivable sin of asking for the scriptural basis on which a claim about the resurrection is made, I am adjudged to be an immoral apostate traitor! So much for Jesus' counsel at Matthew 7:1-2!

I believe he answered your post to me...

siti · Jul 9, 2018

John53 said:
I believe he answered your post to me...

I believe you're right!

Deeje · Jul 9, 2018

John53 said:
That is a ridiculous argument. Every organisation in the world could do the same thing.

Well, JW's are somewhat condemned for expelling unrepentant wrongdoers from their congregations, so its a little bit of 'damned if we do, and damned if we don't'.

The Bible's recommendation is to kick them out and they stay out until they can show some humility and come back into the fold with a repentant attitude....like the prodigal son. It means swallowing their pride, which most of them can't. The ones who do are welcomed back with open arms.

The Apostle Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.....
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

There is our authorization to expel those "inside" the congregation who just want to ignore God's laws, follow their own ideas and make trouble for others. We are glad to be rid of them quite frankly.

siti · Jul 9, 2018

@Deeje - what would you say is "a reviler" in the context of 1 Corinthians 5:11?

John53 · Jul 9, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
“Could do”, isn’t does.

Perhaps other organisations realise it's not a particularly honest way of fudging the statistics.

John53 · Jul 9, 2018

Deeje said:
Well, JW's are somewhat condemned for expelling unrepentant wrongdoers from their congregations, so its a little bit of 'damned if we do, and damned if we don't'.

The Bible's recommendation is to kick them out and they stay out until they can show some humility and come back into the fold with a repentant attitude....like the prodigal son. It means swallowing their pride, which most of them can't. The ones who do are welcomed back with open arms.

The Apostle Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.....
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

There is our authorization to expel those "inside" the congregation who just want to ignore God's laws, follow their own ideas and make trouble for others. We are glad to be rid of them quite frankly.

Which contradicts Matthew 18:12-14 and Luke 15:3-7 It all depends which piece of the bible you want to cherry pick but well done by the watch tower for being able to twist the bible to justify stopping parents having contact with their children at what might be their most vulnerable time.

Hockeycowboy · Jul 9, 2018

John53 said:
Which contradicts Matthew 18:12-14 and Luke 15:3-7 It all depends which piece of the bible you want to cherry pick but well done by the watch tower for being able to twist the bible to justify stopping parents having contact with their children at what might be their most vulnerable time.

But we do apply these Scriptures! (Read Matthew 18:15-17, just a couple verses after the ones you mentioned.)

1 Corinthians 5 is after all else fails.

Hockeycowboy · Jul 9, 2018

John53 said:
Perhaps other organisations realise it's not a particularly honest way of fudging the statistics.

Huh?

Deeje · Jul 9, 2018

siti said:
(a) you don't know the scriptural basis for the fanciful belief that people who died thousands of years ago will be physically resurrected as humans on earth with their memories intact

(b) there is no scriptural basis for the fanciful belief that people who died thousands of years ago will be physically resurrected as humans on earth with their memories intact

I am prompted to ask......what do you think the resurrection is for? (John 5:28-29)

Paul, in speaking before his fellow Jews wrote.....
"And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15)

The ancient Jews held no belief in an immortal soul; they believed in a future resurrection to life on this earth, so they took great pains to have a memorial tomb inscribed with their names and their family linage. Visit any Jewish cemetery and see how elaborate their tombs are.

When Jesus told the Pharisees that they would not flee from "the judgement of gehenna", he was alluding to the fact that the bodies of executed criminals were thrown into the city's garbage dump for disposal in fires that never went out......they were not considered worthy of a decent burial or a marked grave....it carried the connotation of not being remembered by God in a resurrection....they would never see life again.

Why on earth would God bring people back to life, if they did not know who they were, or who their family members were? In each of the resurrections Jesus performed, the resurrected person was given back to their family members. Jesus said that Lazarus was "sleeping" and that he was going to awaken him. (John 11:11-14) He was reunited with his family and friends. Death stops time because the dead are actually dead. When the dead awaken, it will be as if they just closed their eyes a moment ago. Do we know how long we have been asleep if we awaken during the night? Sometimes I can't believe it when I look at the clock and think it must be nearly morning, only to find its 1 a.m.

All the humans who have ever lived and died in ignorance will get another chance at life. In this time of the end, there will be no ignorance except by choice. Christ's message is being preached in all the earth just as Jesus said it would be. Those rejecting it, will themselves be rejected. Those not "doing the will of the Father" will be judged unworthy of life.....regardless of what label they are wearing...even ours. (Matthew 7:21-23)

siti said:
what would you say is "a reviler" in the context of 1 Corinthians 9:11?

The word in Greek is "loidoros" from loidos (mischief) and it is used only twice in the NT by Paul.

I think you mean 5:11....in my understanding, a reviler is one who uses verbal abuse to disparage someone's character or reputation in a mean-spirited way, without due regard for the truthfulness of what is spoken.

Deeje · Jul 9, 2018

John53 said:
It all depends which piece of the bible you want to cherry pick but well done by the watch tower for being able to twist the bible to justify stopping parents having contact with their children at what might be their most vulnerable time.

Read the account about the prodigal son.....(Luke 15:11-24)

"Then he said: “A man had two sons. 12 And the younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the property that should come to me.’ So he divided his belongings between them. 13 A few days later, the younger son gathered all his things together and traveled to a distant country and there squandered his property by living a debauched life. 14 When he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred throughout that country, and he fell into need. 15 He even went and attached himself to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to herd swine. 16 And he longed to be filled with the carob pods that the swine were eating, but no one would give him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more than enough bread, while I am dying here from hunger! 18 I will get up and travel to my father and say to him: “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Make me as one of your hired men.”’ 20 So he got up and went to his father. While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him and was moved with pity, and he ran and embraced him and tenderly kissed him. 21 Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quick! bring out a robe, the best one, and clothe him with it, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 Also bring the fattened calf, slaughter it, and let us eat and celebrate, 24 for this son of mine was dead but has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they started to enjoy themselves."

Now, ask yourself how the father reacted to his son's request to give him his inheritance so that he could leave his house and live the life he wanted.....to do his own thing. Did the father make any attempt to stop his son from leaving? Did he plead with him? Chastise him? Bribe him? Chase after him? He did none of those things.....he simply let him go to learn his own life lessons. The father made no attempt to contact his son. He was a grown man, capable of making his own choices. When this man had lived the high life and ran out of money, his friends deserted him too because they were only using him. Abandoned, hungry, homeless and desperate, he realised how good his life had been in his father's house despite whatever rules he imposed, and he decided to return as a hired worker, not as the son of his respected father. He was humbled by his experience and contrite....seeking forgiveness.

How would the father have responded if the son had shown no remorse for his actions? Would he have welcomed him back so readily? It says that the father saw him a long way off and was moved with pity....and ran to meet him. This is the result of tough love. This is the kind of love Jehovah shows for us. If we have left him, he will wait until he sees a humble heart, wanting to return "home". Forgiveness only comes with repentance.

Parents of minor children are not forced to have no contact with their children if they want to leave the faith in which they are raised. But at age 18 in Australia they are legal adults and can do whatever they please. If a child wants to break all the rules of their parent's house, then they will be asked to leave, especially if younger siblings could be adversely influenced by a rebellious family member who has lost their way.

You can make it sound however you like, but this approach works, and those who return are happy to be home, realising that no one in this world loves them more than their parents do. Rules are there for their wellbeing and protection. Many come to appreciate this only after they have caused much heartache.

Audie · Jul 9, 2018

RedhorseWoman said:
I do have to object to several of your statements here. There are, for instance, JWs who have committed murder...JWs who steal...JWs who commit all sorts of crimes. As an example, in my home congregation there was a ministerial servant/former pioneer minister who murdered an elderly woman while seeking money for his cocaine habit.

Then, of course, there are the numerous pedophiles who inhabit JW congregations all over the world.

The "love" that JWs talk about is absolutely conditional. They don't really "love" their neighbors unless those neighbors are JWs and in the proper JW social clique. So many times, JWs, when leaving the doorstep of someone who didn't appreciate their uninvited intrusion, will comment on what a "goat" that person is and how God will soon be destroying them at Armageddon.

And guns? LOL I know that when I was an active JW, guns, other than those used for hunting, were not utilized. Now, however, there are JWs who own handguns with concealed carry permits and who brag that they would shoot and kill anyone who threatened them or their families. That rather shocked me, but it seems to be a trend.

So, perhaps it might behoove you to tell the truth, eh?

There are of course sociopaths and the like who use
a church, the ministry, for cover. Who'd suspect a
preacher of being a badguy?

Not that it works as well as it used to!

Audie · Jul 9, 2018

Deeje said:
I am prompted to ask......what do you think the resurrection is for? (John 5:28-29)

Paul, in speaking before his fellow Jews wrote.....
"And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15)

The ancient Jews held no belief in an immortal soul; they believed in a future resurrection to life on this earth, so they took great pains to have a memorial tomb inscribed with their names and their family linage. Visit any Jewish cemetery and see how elaborate their tombs are.

When Jesus told the Pharisees that they would not flee from "the judgement of gehenna", he was alluding to the fact that the bodies of executed criminals were thrown into the city's garbage dump for disposal in fires that never went out......they were not considered worthy of a decent burial or a marked grave....it carried the connotation of not being remembered by God in a resurrection....they would never see life again.

Why on earth would God bring people back to life, if they did not know who they were, or who their family members were? In each of the resurrections Jesus performed, the resurrected person was given back to their family members. Jesus said that Lazarus was "sleeping" and that he was going to awaken him. (John 11:11-14) He was reunited with his family and friends. Death stops time because the dead are actually dead. When the dead awaken, it will be as if they just closed their eyes a moment ago. Do we know how long we have been asleep if we awaken during the night? Sometimes I can't believe it when I look at the clock and think it must be nearly morning, only to find its 1 a.m.

All the humans who have ever lived and died in ignorance will get another chance at life. In this time of the end, there will be no ignorance except by choice. Christ's message is being preached in all the earth just as Jesus said it would be. Those rejecting it, will themselves be rejected. Those not "doing the will of the Father" will be judged unworthy of life.....regardless of what label they are wearing...even ours. (Matthew 7:21-23)

The word in Greek is "loidoros" from loidos (mischief) and it is used only twice in the NT by Paul.

I think you mean 5:11....in my understanding, a reviler is one who uses verbal abuse to disparage someone's character or reputation in a mean-spirited way, without due regard for the truthfulness of what is spoken.

without due regard for the truthfulness of what is spoken

Like "Paul's" snake story.

John53 · Jul 9, 2018

Deeje said:
Read the account about the prodigal son.....(Luke 15:11-24)

Read Deuteronomy 21:18–21. You can cherry pick the bible to justify all manner of evil deeds. Doesn't make it right.

Audie · Jul 9, 2018

John53 said:
Read Deuteronomy 21:18–21. You can cherry pick the bible to justify all manner of evil deeds. Doesn't make it right.

As noted elsewhere, the popularity of the bible is due
in no small part to its flexibility; it says, justifies, anything
you may want.

Do Members of Jehovah's Witness Celebrate the US Independence Day?

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