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I Think We Misunderstood Jesus

More important?

  • Belief in Jesus

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Belief in God

    Votes: 6 75.0%

  • Belief in the afterlife/grace/something else

    Votes: 2 25.0%

  • Belief in Christianity

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    8
Samantha Rinne

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Click to expand...

It gets quoted alot by sort of fundie Christians to explain why Christianity, and ONLY Christianity is saved.

Isn't that interesting though.

2 Kings 2:5-12 Elijah is taken directly to Heaven
Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 both seem to say that Enoch got taken by God

So these people came to Heaven with God, yet somehow they weren't saved?

For that matter all of the other OT leaders such as Moses, Abraham, and the like, also not saved apparently.

Is it possible we misread this?

Let's get a few more quotes before declaring that only those who belong to the Christian fanclub are saved:

Matthew 19:23-26
23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Click to expand...

Not Christianity. Not even Jesus. God is the one to save us.

Hold up, before Jesus said nobody comes to the father except through him. Is this a contradiction?

Not really. Jesus also says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

So, something's going on other than what we've led to believe. From what we have here, unlike many religions it does not appear that membership is actually the key point. So what is?

Belief in Jesus? Or for that matter, following the path of Jesus? (I mean, Muslims say they believe Jesus was a person, but they certainly don't follow his path)

Belief in God? (That would effectively save Christians, Jews, and probably Hindus)

Belief in some sort of concept, like grace? (That might effectively save even atheists)

Or is it more important to simply be a member of the Christian fanclub called the church, even if you don't actually strongly believe in Jesus or God, and are basically a nihilist? Is simply being baptised enough for salvation?

Thoughts?
 
WalterTrull

WalterTrull

Godfella
Samantha Rinne said:
So, something's going on other than what we've led to believe.
Click to expand...
Ya think?? I find that all the religions I know tend to be pretty self serving. Wouldn't you love a chat with Jesus? Straighten out a few things. Maybe not though. They didn't understand him much then, you suppose we'd be any better at it?
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Samantha Rinne said:
John 14:6


It gets quoted alot by sort of fundie Christians to explain why Christianity, and ONLY Christianity is saved.

Isn't that interesting though.

2 Kings 2:5-12 Elijah is taken directly to Heaven
Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 both seem to say that Enoch got taken by God

So these people came to Heaven with God, yet somehow they weren't saved?

For that matter all of the other OT leaders such as Moses, Abraham, and the like, also not saved apparently.

Is it possible we misread this?

Let's get a few more quotes before declaring that only those who belong to the Christian fanclub are saved:

Matthew 19:23-26


Not Christianity. Not even Jesus. God is the one to save us.

Hold up, before Jesus said nobody comes to the father except through him. Is this a contradiction?

Not really. Jesus also says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

So, something's going on other than what we've led to believe. From what we have here, unlike many religions it does not appear that membership is actually the key point. So what is?

Belief in Jesus? Or for that matter, following the path of Jesus? (I mean, Muslims say they believe Jesus was a person, but they certainly don't follow his path)

Belief in God? (That would effectively save Christians, Jews, and probably Hindus)

Belief in some sort of concept, like grace? (That might effectively save even atheists)

Or is it more important to simply be a member of the Christian fanclub called the church, even if you don't actually strongly believe in Jesus or God, and are basically a nihilist? Is simply being baptised enough for salvation?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I was in Mass this morning and had another epiphany of christian views. More like clarification. We constantly say: god blesses Through jesus. We are blessed by god in the name of jesus. God bless us in the name of. We worship you, god, in the name of. We offer the lamb/sacrifice/jesus to you god for you (god) saved us from the sins of the world: from god, through christ.

Christ did nothing.

Its fundies. The christian bible has always taught one is saved by god. The difference is the OT prophets did not need a go-between to be saved. Pagans in the NT did.

Its always through, never as, nor is,
 
ameyAtmA

ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
Hello

If Christians understand the "I" in Jesus's words in that verse, they are all set.

I would like to explain what Samantha has said above, from the angle of Upanishads, VedAnta of Hindu Dharma.

I am the way,truth,life == [bramhaNyo hi pratishTHA aham amrutasya avyasya cha, shAswatasya cha dharmasya ... Bhagvad Gita Chap 14 last verse]
here I = Infinite pure AtmA-Bramhan , The Ultimate Divine Universal Principle, The Absolute Truth, and not the local man named Jesus who was born at a point in time in a specific place on earth and walked in a specific human body...

A being who truly and honestly understands AND experiences their real original nature as/pointing to The Source of Everything, as The Absolute Truth , is a Self-realized and possibly God-realized being - which Jesus was. Jesus did not identify with the local body of a man.

Therefore, if one honors and venerates Jesus as a Teacher, Who can show and guide one to the Absolute Truth, He will show them the way.
Further, Jesus's "I" was also pointing to the Guru-tattva, the Divine Principle that stands for a spiritual master.

So the "only through me" again is not attached to the body of Jesus, but to the Teaching Principle in the Divine, the Guru Tattva, and the Divine has so many aspects and principles.

Now this I is realized by a relatively smaller percentage of beings in a particular era, but most certainly not by Jesus alone. There are others.
There have been Divine Universal Teachers, thousands of years before Jesus arrived, and after Him, although very few and rare.

This is why the rare but genuine Guru is to be considered a representative of the Divine.

Only thru' me == Not thru not-me . Not me = Someone who is not Self-Realized or God-realized cannot be the spiritual master, and is "other than me"

It means one can reach the Ultimate Absolute Truth and transcend this mortal existence only by learning from a genuine spiritual teacher which is an embodiment of the Guru-Tattva, who also has direct experience and detailed knowledge of the Divine.

The tricky part is realizing who that Guru is for you, but given Divine Grace, it is possible to know -- this is opposite of blind faith. It is knowing due to Grace. Since we are built off of the Divine, if we sweep out the obscurities and follow the pure heart, we can tell what direction to turn in, and discern.

|| Shri KRishNArpaNamastu ||
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
WalterTrull said:
Might take a bit of exception there. He taught. God blessed us with Christ, the chosen, this time Jesus. I feel Moses and a bunch of others were in there too.
We do seem to need something to focus on though. Even Moses needed the bush.
Click to expand...
o_O You knew what I meant?

I honestly dont see positivity in what jesus taught. The Buddha, yes. Christ. No
 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Samantha Rinne said:
John 14:6
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Better write it this way IMO:

Jesus answered: "I Am" = the way and the truth and the life so No one comes to the Father except through "I Am".

Jesus realized "I Am" is the way. So when talking about "me" it is not literally meant. It's about "Self Realization".
Understandable to me that the Church, who is in the "convert business" twisted the truth to their advantage
That's why it's smart to also study other scriputures then you see easily the common truth in all, and all makes sense
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
WalterTrull said:
I dunno. "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils" Seems like pretty positive stuff to me.
Click to expand...

Emm. There's an ultimatum. You have to have faith. He healed the leaper and raised the dead "because" they had faith on his father. I usually think of good people doing things for others despite their differences. You think jesus would help a satanist?
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
stvdv said:
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Better write it this way IMO:

Jesus answered: "I Am" = the way and the truth and the life so No one comes to the Father except through "I Am".

Jesus realized "I Am" is the way. So when talking about "me" it is not literally meant. It's about "Self Realization".
Understandable to me that the Church, who is in the "convert business" twisted the truth to their advantage
That's why it's smart to also study other scriputures then you see easily the common truth in all, and all makes sense
Click to expand...

Thats a weird way of phrasing it. Shortcut is saying you cant get to the creator except through the creator incarnated. (No one can see the creator so he made himself flesh)

Its correct in context of other verses. It cant be translated alone because it assumes one goes to christ himself as god not an go-through. With other verses, its already translated.
 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Unveiled Artist said:
Emm. There's an ultimatum. You have to have faith. He healed the leaper and raised the dead "because" they had faith on his father. I usually think of good people doing things for others despite their differences. You think jesus would help a satanist?
Click to expand...
Yes I think so. He would give him the shortcut to satan.
 
Dawnofhope

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Samantha Rinne said:
John 14:6


It gets quoted alot by sort of fundie Christians to explain why Christianity, and ONLY Christianity is saved.

Isn't that interesting though.

2 Kings 2:5-12 Elijah is taken directly to Heaven
Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 both seem to say that Enoch got taken by God

So these people came to Heaven with God, yet somehow they weren't saved?

For that matter all of the other OT leaders such as Moses, Abraham, and the like, also not saved apparently.

Is it possible we misread this?

Let's get a few more quotes before declaring that only those who belong to the Christian fanclub are saved:

Matthew 19:23-26


Not Christianity. Not even Jesus. God is the one to save us.

Hold up, before Jesus said nobody comes to the father except through him. Is this a contradiction?

Not really. Jesus also says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

So, something's going on other than what we've led to believe. From what we have here, unlike many religions it does not appear that membership is actually the key point. So what is?

Belief in Jesus? Or for that matter, following the path of Jesus? (I mean, Muslims say they believe Jesus was a person, but they certainly don't follow his path)

Belief in God? (That would effectively save Christians, Jews, and probably Hindus)

Belief in some sort of concept, like grace? (That might effectively save even atheists)

Or is it more important to simply be a member of the Christian fanclub called the church, even if you don't actually strongly believe in Jesus or God, and are basically a nihilist? Is simply being baptised enough for salvation?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I voted belief in God but think its important to believe in ALL God's Manifestations, not just Jesus.

John 14:6 is THE verse I've had fired at me over the years by the fundamentalists. I've thought a lot about it over the years.

As with any biblical verses its important to consider the context including in relation to other verses, historic and cultural.

My understanding is that it has a two fold meaning.

(1) Jesus spoke these words to His disciples in the week leading up to His martyrdom. His disciples were all Jewish. It was a time of intense Messianic expectation and this small handful of followers believed Him to be the Messiah. They were understandably distraught to be informed that He would no longer be with them physically. Jesus comforted them telling them He was the promised One in the Tanakh or Holy book of the Jews.
(2) He also alluded to a mystery in His Holy Personage, wherein if we turned to Him we also turn to God.

It can not possibly be construed as an attack on other religions. Buddhism and Hinduism were not a concern for that audience and Islam wouldn't come on the scene for nearly 600 years.

Hope that helps.
 
Mox

Mox

Dr Green Fingers
Lyndon said:
I don't think any of the bible writers intended every single word they wrote to be taken literally. And certainly not as the word of God.
Click to expand...

An extremely important fact, overlooked by zealots, always.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Samantha Rinne said:
John 14:6


It gets quoted alot by sort of fundie Christians to explain why Christianity, and ONLY Christianity is saved.

Isn't that interesting though.

2 Kings 2:5-12 Elijah is taken directly to Heaven
Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 both seem to say that Enoch got taken by God

So these people came to Heaven with God, yet somehow they weren't saved?

For that matter all of the other OT leaders such as Moses, Abraham, and the like, also not saved apparently.

Is it possible we misread this?

Let's get a few more quotes before declaring that only those who belong to the Christian fanclub are saved:

Matthew 19:23-26


Not Christianity. Not even Jesus. God is the one to save us.

Hold up, before Jesus said nobody comes to the father except through him. Is this a contradiction?

Not really. Jesus also says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

So, something's going on other than what we've led to believe. From what we have here, unlike many religions it does not appear that membership is actually the key point. So what is?

Belief in Jesus? Or for that matter, following the path of Jesus? (I mean, Muslims say they believe Jesus was a person, but they certainly don't follow his path)

Belief in God? (That would effectively save Christians, Jews, and probably Hindus)

Belief in some sort of concept, like grace? (That might effectively save even atheists)

Or is it more important to simply be a member of the Christian fanclub called the church, even if you don't actually strongly believe in Jesus or God, and are basically a nihilist? Is simply being baptised enough for salvation?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
According to the Christian Bible, and trad belief, your voting options don't quite make sense.
First of all, in the religion, Jesus is god, then, you have to believe in Jesus, it's quite plain
Mark 16:16
John 3:36
 
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