Qu'ran says "black faces" is a punishment from Allah

PopeADope said:

@Epic Beard Man
I already said, i really appreciate your commentary on the verse.

I'm not saying it is false!

Neither did I say the Prophet was referring to anything that had to do with race.

I did say that if the Pope or Donald Trump used such symbolism or imagry, people would interpret it as a "racial slur".

No one in their right mind, should ever use the term "white faces" or "black faces" to symbolize holiness and wickedness.

That is what Muhammad (peace be upon him) did.

THAT IS A FACT!

And it is disrespectful and offensive, regardless of how the prophet indended it!

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Neither the Pope, nor Donald Trump were educating uneducated Nomadic tribes on the Arabian Peninsula.

The son of a nineteenth century Persian nobleman (Abdu’l-Baha) taught neither give offence nor take offence.

A Jewish Messiah taught so we may have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Epic Beard Man said:

Donald Trump is a racist for one:

"In fact, the very first time that Trump appeared in the pages of the New York Times, back in the 1970s, was when the US Department of Justice sued him for racial discrimination. Since then, he has repeatedly appeared in newspaper pages across the world as he inspired more similar controversies."

"1992: The Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino had to pay a $200,000 fine because it transferred black and women dealers off tables to accommodate a big-time gambler’s prejudices."


See:https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racism-history

First off why would the Pope or Trump make such comments in the first place?

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First off,
Why would the wise, prudent, annointed, holy prophet make such comments in the first place?

Perhaps the Pope or Trump might have a similar motive for doing so.

They wouldnt say that, but either way, my point is, if they did, there would be hell to pay! Therefore, there is a double standard.

And no one in their right mind should say such things out of respect for people who have faces of that color.

@Epic Beard Man
Have you considered addressing the fact that it is not healthy for you to see someone insulting your heritage, when they aren't doing so?

This "insult" doesn't exist, neither can you provide a shred of evidence that it does. It only exists in your imagination. For the sake of your well-being, simmer down, and stop finding insults that don't exist.

It will make life difficult with such a mindset. I say this because it's in your best interest to overcome unhealthy habits, mate!

At least in some cultures "black face" doesn't mean actual black colored face nor that face paint. I know there are racists in every religion and culture, but this seems more like a misunderstanding.

PopeADope said:

Honestly,
@Epic Beard Man,
In the OP I'm condemning the decision of an influential man to say colors of faces will change, the righteous will have "white faces", the wicked will have "black faces"...

And you defend such talk?

I can't believe im even having this conversation with you!

Yes, I get he wasn't implying anything racist, but still, it sounds terrible!

I can't believe you would defend such a poor offensive choice of words!

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I think you're just an impulsive writer. This thread is an example of that.

I'm over it now...

And perhaps Muslims could not defend such an offensive choice of words (and other wrong behaviors), and simply admit, "I don't know what the Prophet was thinking when he made such an offensive comment, made such a decision, or instituted such policies. He made serious mistakes!"

(Rather than chronically fighting a losing battle defending the idea that the Prophet and the Koran are without error!)

Jumi said:

At least in some cultures "black face" doesn't mean actual black colored face nor that face paint. I know there are racists in every religion and culture, but this seems more like a misunderstanding.

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Either way, to start separating the good from the evil, based on the color of their faces, and describing the wicked as having "black faces" and the righteous as having "white faces" is disrespectful to people who have black faces.

I don't see how anyone could see it differently!

It paints a picture of the good being white and the wicked being black, regardless of what his intentions were.

PopeADope said:

And perhaps Muslims could not defend such an offensive choice of words (and other wrong behaviors), and simply admit, "I don't know what the Prophet was thinking when he made such an offensive comment, made such a decision, or instituted such policies. He made serious mistakes!"

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I don't think we can judge what was written in the 5th century by today's standards of political correctness and the explanation of what the colours represent makes sense.

(Rather than chronically fighting a losing battle defending the idea that the Prophet and the Koran are without error!)

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I do agree with that.

PopeADope said:

Either way, to start separating the good from the evil, based on the color of their faces, and describing the wicked as having "black faces" and the righteous as having "white faces" is disrespectful to people who have black faces.

I don't see how anyone could see it differently!

It paints a picture of the good being white and the wicked being black, regardless of what his intentions were.

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How about a few verses from the bible about dark coloured skin to meditate on:

Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.
Song of Solomon 1:6

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Jeremiah 13:23

Their visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to their bones; it is withered, it is become like a stick.
Lamentations 4:8

adrian009 said:

Black and white are symbols of darkness and light, or turning away from God and turning towards Him, of having unbelief or belief.
The verses have nothing to do with race.

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Try explaining that to the people wanting to ban "Saint Nicholas & black peter" festival. Discrimination is not in my mind. Never thought about "Black Peter" in a belittling way. But I do understand that, because many do discrimination black people in the world, the black people object now. That is white human's self created karma. So in that way the white people should not complain. They should not have been so stupid to start discrimination in the first place. But I doubt that Dutch people think in a demeaning way about "black peter".

So I am willing to give up my beloved "Saint Nicholas & black peter", with tears in my eyes. But you should admit that in this age this verse in the Quran is not smart. If you vote against "black peter" you MUST IMHO also vote against that verse.

Of course I know the interpretation is symbolic. But the same for "black peter"

Epic Beard Man said:

No you don't love Muhammad. Just the other thread you referred to him as a pedophile and in the same breathe you can also say (peace be upon him) while at the same time insult a religious figure. Your confusion and lack of understanding is beyond insulting and I do not understand why the likes of @Kelly of the Phoenix and @stvdv keeps defending you

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I saw my name pop up. I can easily explain why I defend @PopeADope:

Of course I know Pope sometimes acts a little crazy. I am the first to recognize this because as my Master always says "What you see in others is also in yourself". Was a shocker to me; accepting that I am also a bit crazy. But that's what Masters do, they keep giving electro shocks till you stop the stupid judgmental thoughts.

I not only defend Pope. If someone makes "Ad Hominem" attack is the best way to get me going. That is just "not done". It is not cool to criticize someones faith (or lack thereof). Faith is most intimate feeling, the soul of someone. I defend you even more than I would defend Pope probably. I always defend the one that makes the first "Ad Hominem" attack. So a Christian I would almost never defend, if he proselytizes. Because proselytizing is "Ad Hominem" attack in the worst way IMHO [and the Masters I met say all the same; you have no right to belittle faith [or lack thereof] of others].

You had a very good POST on priest with his "Ad Hominem" attack. I almost replied, but remembered you said you put me on ignore. So respected that. You get mad if someone disrespects your mother. I get mad if someone attacks other persons' faith. Priest did both. We both have our trigger points.

I met a man [50 years old], his mother dumped him, age 1 month, on the street. Man found him and beat the poop out of him all his life. My Master invited him to stay 3 years. He was full of rage, and yelling all day. Ashram had rigid dicipline. No sound. 1 exception, this man. I asked man in charge "why he can yell and others not? Sai Baba told us "he has carte blanche, he is my boy, I take care of him". Knowing the story behind, I was so happy Sai Baba did what he did. That felt so good. After 3 years this man changed so much. When I know story behind, I judge much less.

stvdv said:

Try explaining that to the people wanting to ban "Saint Nicholas & black peter" festival. Discrimination is not in my mind. Never thought about "Black Peter" in a belittling way. But I do understand that, because many do discrimination black people in the world, the black people object now. That is white human's self created karma. So in that way the white people should not complain. They should not have been so stupid to start discrimination in the first place. But I doubt that Dutch people think in a demeaning way about "black peter".

So I am willing to give up my beloved "Saint Nicholas & black peter", with tears in my eyes. But you should admit that in this age this verse in the Quran is not smart. If you vote against "black peter" you MUST IMHO also vote against that verse.

Of course I know the interpretation is symbolic. But the same for "black peter"

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I've said all I wanted to on this topic. I see the OP has been edited which is a good thing.

Cacotopia said:

oh snap. shots fired.

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Racist stereotyping imo

Just because he's black doesn't mean he pulls out a 9 at the drop of a hat.

Augustus said:

Racist stereotyping imo

Just because he's black doesn't mean he pulls out a 9 at the drop of a hat.

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Some people at RF have no sense of humor.

You can give someone a bad time and still like them.

One example: I love my Dad, but tease and make fun of him all the time.

PopeADope said:

Some people at RF have no sense of humor

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True dat.

You can guarantee that there's always going to be someone who misses even the most obvious jokes.

PopeADope said:

Qu'ran 3:106 says:

"On the Day [some] faces will turn white and [some] faces will turn black. As for those whose faces turn black, [to them it will be said], "Did you disbelieve after your belief? Then taste the punishment for what you used to reject."

Anyone care to comment on that?

It seems to me like the right and healthy thing to point out a potentially toxic verse like that from a "sacred text."

If the Pope or Donald Trump taught something like that, everyone would accuse them of an extremely offensive and blatantly obvious "racial slur", and rightfully so, but when it comes from Muhammad (peace be upon him), no one seems to care.

It is exalting the favored righteous as having "white faces" and speaking of wicked, condemned, unbelievers as having "black faces".

How could someone not see the problem with this picture?

It seems to me like the right thing to do to point out something so offensive.

I love Muhammad (peace be upon him) and hope he is in heaven. But it is still the right thing to do, to point out his errors in judgement and teachings (rather than enable them by being silent and passive).

We all have errors in judgement, but when over a billion people adhere to one's teachings, those errors have much worse potential to do damage, and should be pointed out.

I do the same thing with the Bible and "Christians".

There's nothing wrong with letting your conscience be your guide!

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Unfortunately, Muslims have slavery and look down on people of black skin. The white men did not penetrate deep into Africa to get slaves, they went to the shores of the continents where Muslims delightedly sold them slaves for the UK and the Americas.

BilliardsBall said:

Unfortunately, Muslims have slavery and look down on people of black skin. The white men did not penetrate deep into Africa to get slaves, they went to the shores of the continents where Muslims delightedly sold them slaves for the UK and the Americas.

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This, @BilliardsBall, is true. Although, if I may correct you, ARABS (not specifically Muslims) participated in their own slave trade.

@PopeADope, I think it would be important for you to recall to mind these words from the Last Sermon of the Prophet Muhammad (saw):


“All mankind is from Adam and Eve. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have any superiority over an Arab; a white has no superiority over a black, nor does a black have any superiority over a white; [none have superiority over another] except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.”

I would imagine that the white/black reference in this particular passage to refers to holiness/unholiness and in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with race. That being said, I don't think it would be much of a stretch of the imagination to think that since religion plays such a powerful role in creating the foundational cornerstones of one's world view, especially if one is constantly reminded of it, that equating darker skin with less holy attributes would not be to hard of a connection to make. Egypt is well known for racism against blacks as is much of the Arab/Muslim world but it seems something that is not discussed much and this black/ white distinction in Islam might play a role in this, an ingrained distinction ordained by someones God.
Trade in black African slaves is still alive and well in much of the Islamic world