Abandoning christianity, contradicts my beliefs.

shunyadragon · Jul 4, 2018

Disciple of Jesus said:
English Bible for many, is kjv. Greek text can be inferenced. Obviously if you've compared them, you note differences. Completely logical, since, we quote kjv, and, people do get meaning from the verses, whether directly or cross referenced, or whatever.
The bible on the forums is kjv.

Mountain out of a molehill

You proposed the problem of translations. The problem is for the most part the interpretations for traditional Christian beliefs do not change much in the 20th century translations since KJV and even KJVII. There are differences particularly in the OT, but most traditional interpretations do not change. It remains that the KJV of the Bible is edited and redacted from the Greek The 20th century translations did basically the same as the translators of KJV, but they had more sources, particularly for the OT. .

Jumi · Jul 5, 2018

I've heard some people say they left Christianity to follow Jesus.

kjw47 · Jul 5, 2018

shunyadragon said:
So what?!?!?! That does not justify any one of hundreds of interpretations of the above citations over another. JW is relatively recent among many that began in the 1800's, and there is no reason to accept this latter day claim of absolute truth over any other.

JW like many of the fundamentalist churches of Christianity face many problems concerning the objective evidence of the known history of the scriptures and contemporary science concerning the geologic history of our universe, earth, life and scriptures.

JW takes a contradictory and confusing absolute stance ot claims of 'Truth' that are total incontradiction with even a reasonable consideration of the evidence,

The religion Jesus began went underground and died out back then. All of the followers were being murdered as Jesus and his apostles were. The bible teaches truth would not come back unless this rose first=2Thess 2:3= the religion that came out of Rome.
Truth didn't come back until these last days-Daniel 12:4

shunyadragon · Jul 5, 2018

Jumi said:
I've heard some people say they left Christianity to follow Jesus.

I occasionally here this among Unitarian Universalists who believe in a secular Jesus and not a Messianic Christ.

shunyadragon · Jul 5, 2018

kjw47 said:
The religion Jesus began went underground and died out back then. All of the followers were being murdered as Jesus and his apostles were. The bible teaches truth would not come back unless this rose first=2Thess 2:3= the religion that came out of Rome.
Truth didn't come back until these last days-Daniel 12:4

I understand this claim by JW, but it is similar to a dozen or more Millennial churches and religions that formed in the mid 1800's, such as the Seventh Day Adventists and Millerites, based on claims of prophesy. The Bible edited and redacted by the JW is not much different than the one edited, redacted and compiled by the Roman and Greek church fathers.

Claims of a literal interpretation of Genesis by JW, Seventh Day Adventists, and other fundamentalists face a severe contradiction with the contemporary world and science clinging to an illogical not rational ancient mythology

Actually the Baha'i Faith formed at the same time, and has similar claims concerning prophesy. Even though I am a Baha'i I realize among the many various conflicting claims such claims have a subjective anecdotal basis. I am a Baha'i, because of the more universal frame of reference and the acknowledgement of the fallible nature of the human perspective of religion, and the relative nature of religious belief.

kjw47 · Jul 5, 2018

shunyadragon said:
I understand this claim by JW, but it is similar to a dozen or more Millennial churches and religions that formed in the mid 1800's, such as the Seventh Day Adventists and Millerites, based on claims of prophesy. The Bible edited and redacted by the JW is not much different than the one edited, redacted and compiled by the Roman and Greek church fathers.

Claims of a literal interpretation of Genesis by JW, Seventh Day Adventists, and other fundamentalists face a severe contradiction with the contemporary world and science clinging to an illogical not rational ancient mythology

Actually the Baha'i Faith formed at the same time, and has similar claims concerning prophesy. Even though I am a Baha'i I realize among the many various conflicting claims such claims have a subjective anecdotal basis. I am a Baha'i, because of the more universal frame of reference and the acknowledgement of the fallible nature of the human perspective of religion, and the relative nature of religious belief.

Yes many formed in these last days. But-ONE- has revelation revealed through them.

shunyadragon · Jul 5, 2018

kjw47 said:
Yes many formed in these last days. But-ONE- has revelation revealed through them.

Maybe, but which one of the literally hundreds of churches, many Millennial faiths and religions. By the objective evidence one could easily conclude none of the above.

As per the subject of the thread there are to many irrational and illogical contradictons in the claims of JW for it to be real.

kjw47 · Jul 5, 2018

shunyadragon said:
Maybe, but which one of the literally hundreds of churches, many Millennial faiths and religions. By the objective evidence one could easily conclude none of the above.

As per the subject of the thread there are to many irrational and illogical contradictons in the claims of JW for it to be real.

What contradictions? The world does as the world does--Jesus taught to be no part of this world. They think we are nuts for not celebrating holidays. The facts found in encyclopedias prove pagan additives are in both celebrations to Jesus. taken straight off the table of demons( 1Corinthians 10:21)
Satan has kicked this worlds butt with stuff like that all along--The only time ever in the history of mankind when 99% weren't being mislead was when Adam and Eve stood--And possibly when the Israelite nation stood strong. Not another instance. Not that many followed Jesus-5000 mentioned once back then. And Jesus teaches-Few will find the road that leads to life( everlasting)--that is sad.

shunyadragon · Jul 5, 2018

kjw47 said:
What contradictions? The world does as the world does--Jesus taught to be no part of this world. They think we are nuts for not celebrating holidays. The facts found in encyclopedias prove pagan additives are in both celebrations to Jesus. taken straight off the table of demons( 1Corinthians 10:21)
Satan has kicked this worlds butt with stuff like that all along--The only time ever in the history of mankind when 99% weren't being mislead was when Adam and Eve stood--And possibly when the Israelite nation stood strong. Not another instance. Not that many followed Jesus-5000 mentioned once back then. And Jesus teaches-Few will find the road that leads to life( everlasting)--that is sad.

The extreme contradictions with the objective verifiable evidence from science concerning the age of the earth, evolution of life, and the fact there is absolutely no evidence for a flood described in Genesis. I am a geologist with over 40 years of experience and have studied the perspective of the different religions and the problems with many that have irrational objections to science.based on an interpretation of ancient scripture and mythology.

Desert Snake · Jul 5, 2018

shunyadragon said:
You proposed the problem of translations. The problem is for the most part the interpretations for traditional Christian beliefs do not change much in the 20th century translations since KJV and even KJVII. There are differences particularly in the OT, but most traditional interpretations do not change. It remains that the KJV of the Bible is edited and redacted from the Greek The 20th century translations did basically the same as the translators of KJV, but they had more sources, particularly for the OT. .

There is translation, then there is incorrect interpretation, then there is revision, 'translation', based on incorrect interpretation.
Hence, it clearly is a problem.

When certain interpretations, and 'translations', contradict the Bible, and contradict inference in the Bible, it has to be explained.

As noted in
John 1:18
John 6:45
John 6:46
John 6:47
These do have non contradictory interpretations, like, Jesus was talking to specific people, not making general statements; however, in many interpretations, and now even some Bibles, contradictory 'translations', have been made, by changing word inference.
Those are an example of 'translation' problem.
This follows what and how the verse would be understood, from a direct reading.

Desert Snake · Jul 5, 2018

Note that in:
Matthew 11:27
Jesus is talking specifically, to certain people, not making 'general statements', regarding God.
Matthew 11:20

shunyadragon · Jul 5, 2018

Disciple of Jesus said:
There is translation, then there is incorrect interpretation, then there is revision, 'translation', based on incorrect interpretation.
Hence, it clearly is a problem.

When certain interpretations, and 'translations', contradict the Bible, and contradict inference in the Bible, it has to be explained.

As noted in
John 1:18
John 6:45
John 6:46
John 6:47
These do have non contradictory interpretations, like, Jesus was talking to specific people, not making general statements; however, in many interpretations, and now even some Bibles, contradictory 'translations', have been made, by changing word inference.
Those are an example of 'translation' problem.
This follows what and how the verse would be understood, from a direct reading.

New International Version

John chapter 1

18 No one has ever seen God. The uniquely existing God, who is close to the Father’s side, has revealed him.

45 It is written in the Prophets: They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God only he has seen the Father.

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

King James Version

John Chapter 1

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life..

What is the significant difference in the two translations? Do you know what the original Greek stated concerning the bold.

There may be a difference in interpretations, bu that does not reflect the differences in translations.

.

kjw47 · Jul 6, 2018

shunyadragon said:
The extreme contradictions with the objective verifiable evidence from science concerning the age of the earth, evolution of life, and the fact there is absolutely no evidence for a flood described in Genesis. I am a geologist with over 40 years of experience and have studied the perspective of the different religions and the problems with many that have irrational objections to science.based on an interpretation of ancient scripture and mythology.

You must be referring to mans total misuse of science and math in their endevores
So you say, your trust is in men who have polluted the air, land, water and our food, not to mention all the havoc weather on earth caused by the huge hole in the ozone by the misuse of science and math. Ruining God earth daily for profit over human life.
Scientists have assured a flood occurred back then. I saw the writings on it years ago. And the pictures of why they came to that conclusion.
And God inspired the words of the bible--God said a flood occurred
We all must choose who we believe.

shunyadragon · Jul 6, 2018

kjw47 said:
You must be referring to mans total misuse of science and math in their endevores
So you say, your trust is in men who have polluted the air, land, water and our food, not to mention all the havoc weather on earth caused by the huge hole in the ozone by the misuse of science and math.

No, I am not referring to the misuse of science is what fallible humans misuse science, and is this NOT the basic sciences that are based on the objective verifiable evidence. This is the same science that makes the.computers work, airplanes fly, and is the foundation of the science of evolution and the age of the earth and the universe,

Your actually trying to change the subject, which is dodge, and address the sound reliable objective verifiable evidence that supports science concerning evolution, the age of the earth and universe, and the fact that the Biblical flood lacks any foundation if the physical evidence of the earth,.

Ruining God earth daily for profit over human life.

Fallible humans ruin and misuse religion the same as they misuse science, but this has nothing to with basic foundation knowledge of science, which you fail to address,

Scientists have assured a flood occurred back then. I saw the writings on it years ago. And the pictures of why they came to that conclusion.

No, scientist have not found any evidence for the Biblical flood. Making this claim without sound reliable references by scientists is meaningless.

And God inspired the words of the bible--God said a flood occurred
We all must choose who we believe.

A claim of belief based on faith in a literal Bible is all you have. There is no objective verified evidence outside your interpretation of the Bible to support your assertions.

kjw47 · Jul 6, 2018

shunyadragon said:
No, I am not referring to the misuse of science is what fallible humans misuse science, and is this NOT the basic sciences that are based on the objective verifiable evidence. This is the same science that makes the.computers work, airplanes fly, and is the foundation of the science of evolution and the age of the earth and the universe,

Your actually trying to change the subject, which is dodge, and address the sound reliable objective verifiable evidence that supports science concerning evolution, the age of the earth and universe, and the fact that the Biblical flood lacks any foundation if the physical evidence of the earth,.

Fallible humans ruin and misuse religion the same as they misuse science, but this has nothing to with basic foundation knowledge of science, which you fail to address,

No, scientist have not found any evidence for the Biblical flood. Making this claim without sound reliable references by scientists is meaningless.

A claim of belief based on faith in a literal Bible is all you have. There is no objective verified evidence outside your interpretation of the Bible to support your assertions.

I saw the scientists evidence years ago--They said the flood did occur. There are flood stories in every civilization.

shunyadragon · Jul 6, 2018

kjw47 said:
I saw the scientists evidence years ago-- They said the flood did occur.

There is absolutely no evidence of a Biblical flood. Who is they?
Still waiting . . .

There are flood stories in every civilization.

The flood stories in the other civilizations describe local and regional. There are not flood stories in all ancient civilizations. There is absolutely no evidence of a Biblical flood. Need evidence, and not just assertions on your part

For example:

The Chinese flood is a documented and dated catastrophic river flood by Chinese written records, and dated and documented by geologic evidence.

Japanese flood stories are directly dated by Tsunamis, and dates are confirmed by geologic records.

The Genesis Creation story and flood story are found in older Sumarian written records and date to catastrophic flooding of the Tygris Euphrates valleys.

kjw47 · Jul 6, 2018

shunyadragon said:
There is absolutely no evidence of a Biblical flood. Who is they?
Still waiting . . .

The flood stories in the other civilizations describe local and regional. There are not flood stories in all ancient civilizations. There is absolutely no evidence of a Biblical flood. Need evidence, and not just assertions on your part

For example:

The Chinese flood is a documented and dated catastrophic river flood by Chinese written records, and dated and documented by geologic evidence.

Japanese flood stories are directly dated by Tsunamis, and dates are confirmed by geologic records.

The Genesis Creation story and flood story are found in older Sumarian written records and date to catastrophic flooding of the Tygris Euphrates valleys.

I will listen to the bible. God inspired it.
There are things in the OT mentioned about outer space, no mortal could have known. The whole world has been watching Revelation passing before their eyes for years.
The bible states--Whenever they are saying-peace and security-sudden destruction will be upon them. They have started saying it. Instead of relying on Gods kingdom to be mankinds only remaining hope. THEY will put there trust into the image of the beast as that hope. Because it looksgood to the mortal heart--like this( 2Cor 11:12-15)

shunyadragon · Jul 6, 2018

kjw47 said:
I will listen to the bible. God inspired it.
There are things in the OT mentioned about outer space, no mortal could have known.

Nothing here that is meaningful and nothing in the OT that no mortal could have known.

Please be specific.

The whole world has been watching Revelation passing before their eyes for years.
The bible states--Whenever they are saying-peace and security-sudden destruction will be upon them. They have started saying it. Instead of relying on Gods kingdom to be mankinds only remaining hope. THEY will put there trust into the image of the beast as that hope. Because it looks good to the mortal heart--like this( 2Cor 11:12-15)

Nothing here that is meaningful concerning the science that could possible support the literal Biblical Creation nor the flood.

Still waiting for a meaningful response. . .

Hint: There is no objective verifiable evidence that could possibly support a literal Biblical Creation, nor a Biblical flood.

kjw47 · Jul 7, 2018

shunyadragon said:
Nothing here that is meaningful and nothing in the OT that no mortal could have known.

Please be specific.

Nothing here that is meaningful concerning the science that could possible support the literal Biblical Creation nor the flood.

Still waiting for a meaningful response. . .

Hint: There is no objective verifiable evidence that could possibly support a literal Biblical Creation, nor a Biblical flood.

I was sure, the members Bahai faith believed in God and his word????

shunyadragon · Jul 7, 2018

kjw47 said:
I was sure, the members Bahai faith believed in God and his word????

Not really the topic, but it is obvious you do not beileve in the Baha'i Faith.

Yes, but there is a big difference in the relativity of human knowledge of God and our physical existence in the Baha'i Faith including the harmony of science and religion, acknowledging the role of science in the advancement of human knowledge of Creation, and the claims of JW, fundamentalists and 7th Day Adventists to know the 'Truth' absolutely based on an illogical and irrationsl literal interpretation of ancient scripture thousands of years old of highly questionable provenance.

Abandoning christianity, contradicts my beliefs.

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