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Wrestling with God

Fool

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Did Jacob wrestle with what was outside of himself, or what was within?


what was the daemon that he wrestled with? what was the hound of hell, or doggin him?
 
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Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Fool said:
so how do you wrestle something without; when you're asleep?

and was he wrestling his lord within?
Click to expand...

Does it say he was asleep?

But, the things you see while awake are variations of those seen while awake.

He believed he saw God, face to face. I'm not a literalist; I know otherwise.
 
Fool

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Sleeppy said:
Does it say he was asleep?

But, the things you see while awake are variations of those seen while awake.

He believed he saw God, face to face. I'm not a literalist; I know otherwise.
Click to expand...

genesis 28:11-16


11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. 12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. 16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.


and again


genesis 32:21-31

21 So went the present over before him: and himself lodged that night in the company. 22 And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok. 23 And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had. 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.
 
Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Fool said:
genesis 28:11-16


11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. 12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. 16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.


and again


genesis 32:21-31

21 So went the present over before him: and himself lodged that night in the company. 22 And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok. 23 And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had. 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.
Click to expand...

So you believe these two are actually a single event? That the heavens, the Earth, the ladder, and the Messengers ascending and descending are within Jacob?
 
Fool

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Sleeppy said:
So you believe these two are actually a single event? That the heavens, the Earth, the ladder, and the Messengers ascending and descending are within Jacob?
Click to expand...
no i believe they were two events conveying the same idea.

obviously the first is seen as an angel, the second is experienced as a man but both take place at night and the second instance within a camp. he sends the others across a river jabbok, means emptying, and stays behind himself.

only after he is left alone does the strange man appear.

it even tells you that he was alone. either he was alone but struggled within himself again, or he wasn't alone at all.

genesis 32:24

24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.


one wonders if the daimon in both instance wasn't like a tempter to jesus.
 
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PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
Fool said:
Did Jacob wrestle with what was outside of himself, or what was within?


what was the daemon that he wrestled with? what was the hound of hell, or doggin him?
Click to expand...
The point of the story is that we ask ourselves exactly these kinds of questions, not to provide us with answers to them.
 
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