God talking

Unveiled Artist · Jul 2, 2018

Bible works: works for god
Philippians
James 2:14-26
Matthew 5:16

Man works: works of man
Galatians 2:21
Romans 11:6

Works (things you do/deeds)

Righteousnes (bible)
Matthew 6:1

Nonconditional gift: dictionary def.

a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.

Conditionary: gifts from god

John 3:16

.....whoever believes.... that is a condition.
Gifts have no conditions

Gift by bible means something different: based on context and the whole bible

BilliardsBall said:
IMO, trusting in Jesus saves. I sometimes witness to religious Christians because they say they believe in Jesus but then tell me they are trusting themselves for salvation, not Jesus.

BilliardsBall said:
I've read a number of different Bible translations and looked at more. If "gift" is the wrong word in English for the Greek word, why do you think so many Bibles used this word in error? Other words that are troublesome here include "free".

Different definition than dictionary.

Take the word "love". The dic. does not define love with god in it
The bible does
Same word; different context

BilliardsBall said:
Also, how do you explain comparisons and contrasts in the Bible between good works and this "gift"? For example, Ephesians 2 says:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God— 9 NOT by works, so that no one can boast.

See above

Works for god (non righteous) is not whaf this speaks of. Ifs works of man. It says to depend on god for your salvation not yourselves (other scrptures Ive read)

Im talking about works with faith not for salvation

BilliardsBall said:
What do you think is a better word than "gift

I said I didnt know. Probably grace or blessing

BilliardsBall said:
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousnes

No. His actions (works) were for god. He was not righteous. You are talking about righteous works.

I am not.

BilliardsBall said:
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

BilliardsBall said:
Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord w

BilliardsBall said:
If the "gift" comes with works, because the Bible tells us about works, why does it say Abraham COULD boast to others, but not to God? Why does it say Abraham's trust in God apart from works is Abraham's righteousness?

Dont remember saying that. Reference above.

BilliardsBall said:
Why does it say works are owed, an obligation, but to someone with zero works who trusts God, this trust is justification

Works arent for salvation. Salvation through faith. Works are part of your salvational lifestyle NOT salvation itself.

BilliardsBall said:
Why does it say that David agrees with this stance and had his sin covered? Wasn't this Psalm written around the time David was found to be an adulterer and murderer?

Cause faith saves.

Youre stuck on the word works. Cant think of another word. Christ uses deeds too. But you have to put aside what people say and read it from scripture

Unveiled Artist · Jul 2, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Good question? Would the answer depend on the divinity of Christ? That is, as part of the trinity, couldn't He die for the sin of the world as well as past, present and future?

Hmm. You wouldnt need the physical jesus.

Divinity does help the question. Remember, we dont need flesh according to scripture. Why would jesus need to be hu an if his salvation were eternal?

BilliardsBall · Jul 3, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Bible works: works for god
Philippians
James 2:14-26
Matthew 5:16

Man works: works of man
Galatians 2:21
Romans 11:6

Works (things you do/deeds)

Righteousnes (bible)
Matthew 6:1

Nonconditional gift: dictionary def.

a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.

Conditionary: gifts from god

John 3:16

.....whoever believes.... that is a condition.
Gifts have no conditions

Gift by bible means something different: based on context and the whole bible

Different definition than dictionary.

Take the word "love". The dic. does not define love with god in it
The bible does
Same word; different context

See above

Works for god (non righteous) is not whaf this speaks of. Ifs works of man. It says to depend on god for your salvation not yourselves (other scrptures Ive read)

Im talking about works with faith not for salvation

I said I didnt know. Probably grace or blessing

No. His actions (works) were for god. He was not righteous. You are talking about righteous works.

I am not.

Dont remember saying that. Reference above.

Works arent for salvation. Salvation through faith. Works are part of your salvational lifestyle NOT salvation itself.

Cause faith saves.

Youre stuck on the word works. Cant think of another word. Christ uses deeds too. But you have to put aside what people say and read it from scripture

Well, I see it this way. You asked me not to do semantics and you are using semantics to redefine the word "gift" and the word "works", however, I agree--there are works in the Bible that are good works and some that are bad works.

So let's put aside works and gift just for a moment?

The Bible says 150 times in the NT, "Trust Jesus to be saved". I became saved when I trusted Jesus, not myself, for salvation. Does that make sense to you?

BilliardsBall · Jul 3, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Hmm. You wouldnt need the physical jesus.

Divinity does help the question. Remember, we dont need flesh according to scripture. Why would jesus need to be hu an if his salvation were eternal?

Another good question! The Bible address this in a number of places. Start with Philippians 2:5-11

Thanks.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 3, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Well, I see it this way. You asked me not to do semantics and you are using semantics to redefine the word "gift" and the word "works", however, I agree--there are works in the Bible that are good works and some that are bad works.

So let's put aside works and gift just for a moment?

The Bible says 150 times in the NT, "Trust Jesus to be saved". I became saved when I trusted Jesus, not myself, for salvation. Does that make sense to you?

You have to read the verses too. Gift in the bible is not gift in tbe dictionary. Its not semantics. You can believe the bible's definition or the dictionary's, thats up to you. I provided verses so you see the biblical definition.

Second, please reread my post. I address this question in one sentence directly.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 3, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Another good question! The Bible address this in a number of places. Start with Philippians 2:5-11

Thanks.

This means god made jesus flesh and likeness of him.

He does not need to be flesh to save. Godccan do it directly. He did not. I know why and it does not make sense. Flesh is not important. If it were the bible would not repeatedly say give up flesh for spirit.

Either its a contradiction or jesus has a different type of flesh. Which would not be right given your scripture says he humbled himelf.

Why is his flesh different than yours?

I understand spirit not flesh

paarsurrey · Jul 3, 2018

paarsurrey said:
"Jesus did not die on the Cross."
If Jesus could not save himself from death on the Cross, then he cannot save others from the sins which Pauline Christianity pegs on Jesus' death on the Cross. Right, please?

If Jesus did not die on the Cross then Christianity is in vain as per Paul and as per Pauline Christianity. So, it an important matter. Right, please?

Regards
____________
1 Corinthians 15-17

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised out from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then also our preaching is void, and your faith is void. 15Then also we are found false witnesses of God, because we have witnessed concerning God that He raised up Christ, whom He has not raised if then the dead are not raised.

16For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Also then those having fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If only in this life we are having hope in Christ, we are more to be pitied than all men.
http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/15.htm

BilliardsBall · Jul 5, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
You have to read the verses too. Gift in the bible is not gift in tbe dictionary. Its not semantics. You can believe the bible's definition or the dictionary's, thats up to you. I provided verses so you see the biblical definition.

Second, please reread my post. I address this question in one sentence directly.

I'm always eager to better understand the Bible--and I understand that you are saying that when we look at the Bible as a whole, the dozens of English translations that say "gift" have made a mistake. I get that.

I believe there are over 150 NT verses that say salvation comes from trusting Jesus. Would you say we trust Jesus for salvation or ourselves?

Thanks.

BilliardsBall · Jul 5, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
This means god made jesus flesh and likeness of him.

He does not need to be flesh to save. Godccan do it directly. He did not. I know why and it does not make sense. Flesh is not important. If it were the bible would not repeatedly say give up flesh for spirit.

Either its a contradiction or jesus has a different type of flesh. Which would not be right given your scripture says he humbled himelf.

Why is his flesh different than yours?

I understand spirit not flesh

We need to be careful. I see in the Bible that God doesn't need sinful people to help Him accomplish anything, but rather that He chose to make Jesus in flesh--remember the Christmas song? "Veiled in flesh, the godhead see, hail the incarnate Deity!"

1 John 4 has a specific warning against people who deny Jesus was flesh, not just Spirit:

1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I agree with you--God doesn't need flesh to save and can do anything by His Spirit, but the Bible plainly says it is a dangerous, false doctrine to deny that Jesus came as a man, in flesh.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 5, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
I'm always eager to better understand the Bible--and I understand that you are saying that when we look at the Bible as a whole, the dozens of English translations that say "gift" have made a mistake. I get that.

I believe there are over 150 NT verses that say salvation comes from trusting Jesus. Would you say we trust Jesus for salvation or ourselves?

Thanks.

The first paragraph, it's not a mistake.

1. ...Those who believe will have everlasting life.... is, by definition, a condition to which one is saved.

2. The second is not related to gifts. I'm talking about gifts by definition of dictionary and biblical

3. Gifts in the dictionary has no conditions. You give for the sake of giving without needing to receive anything in return

Dictionary and Biblical are two different definitions; they don't match
As gift of salvation, gift is different in the bible. The gift of salvation isn't free, it is only for those who believe.

For example, differences between dictionary and biblical include word such as

Love

Love is an affection between two people not god (dictionary). The other biblical
Homosexuality is a sexual orientation not an action; one is from the dictionary and latter the bible

Gift, love, homosexuality, are different definitions from biblical. Gift can't be compared. It's totally conditional; the whole bible is.

It is not wrong.

You are trying to relate two different things that, by definition and context, just don't match. HUGE way to see this is read the dictionary words of love, gift, hate, and you'll find no mention of god in it.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 5, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
I agree with you--God doesn't need flesh to save and can do anything by His Spirit, but the Bible plainly says it is a dangerous, false doctrine to deny that Jesus came as a man, in flesh.

It's just the christian faith. It's not an old teaching. Abrahamic religions before christianity have all said "god first." Nothing is a false doctrine (which I hate that view since it belittles those people who do have rational views even though you disagree with them)

BilliardsBall said:
We need to be careful. I see in the Bible that God doesn't need sinful people to help Him accomplish anything, but rather that He chose to make Jesus in flesh--remember the Christmas song? "Veiled in flesh, the godhead see, hail the incarnate Deity!"

It means god humbled himself as his message incarnated. By doing so, he humbled himself to take on the flesh/sins of the world (those who believe). It's a very simple idea of god saying "Thou shall not kill" no one listens then he says "okay, Ima make my message (thou shall not kill) incarnate; so, this incarnate person can teach people directly. Those who believe in this law of Moses will be saved by sacrificing their flesh and those who do not, will not.

It's not complicated.

BilliardsBall said:
1 John 4 has a specific warning against people who deny Jesus was flesh, not just Spirit:

1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

This only applies to those who believe

BilliardsBall · Jul 6, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
The first paragraph, it's not a mistake.

1. ...Those who believe will have everlasting life.... is, by definition, a condition to which one is saved.

2. The second is not related to gifts. I'm talking about gifts by definition of dictionary and biblical

3. Gifts in the dictionary has no conditions. You give for the sake of giving without needing to receive anything in return

Dictionary and Biblical are two different definitions; they don't match
As gift of salvation, gift is different in the bible. The gift of salvation isn't free, it is only for those who believe.

For example, differences between dictionary and biblical include word such as

Love

Love is an affection between two people not god (dictionary). The other biblical
Homosexuality is a sexual orientation not an action; one is from the dictionary and latter the bible

Gift, love, homosexuality, are different definitions from biblical. Gift can't be compared. It's totally conditional; the whole bible is.

It is not wrong.

You are trying to relate two different things that, by definition and context, just don't match. HUGE way to see this is read the dictionary words of love, gift, hate, and you'll find no mention of god in it.

I know you find semantics frustrating, for which I apologize--I'm in no way trying to argue with you what a gift is or what belief or trust are. Rather, I've been asking you whether you feel Jesus saves or we save by doing something(s).

BilliardsBall · Jul 6, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
It's just the christian faith. It's not an old teaching. Abrahamic religions before christianity have all said "god first." Nothing is a false doctrine (which I hate that view since it belittles those people who do have rational views even though you disagree with them)

It means god humbled himself as his message incarnated. By doing so, he humbled himself to take on the flesh/sins of the world (those who believe). It's a very simple idea of god saying "Thou shall not kill" no one listens then he says "okay, Ima make my message (thou shall not kill) incarnate; so, this incarnate person can teach people directly. Those who believe in this law of Moses will be saved by sacrificing their flesh and those who do not, will not.

It's not complicated.

This only applies to those who believe

I'm trying to understand:

1. You hate when people call out false doctrine, despite the Bible's numerous warnings about false doctrines, including warnings about denying Jesus came in flesh and not just Spirit.

2. God sacrificed Jesus in the flesh not to save those who trust Jesus, but to teach us by example that we can be saved by sacrificing our own flesh.

3. The extreme warning that people who deny Jesus in flesh or antichrist/against Christ/demonic in doctrine only applies to "those who believe that Bible passage".

Unveiled Artist · Jul 6, 2018

I cant remember the point of our convo. Youre asking me something I cant connect to what Im sayin

BilliardsBall said:
I know you find semantics frustrating, for which I apologize--I'm in no way trying to argue with you what a gift is or what belief or trust are. Rather, I've been asking you whether you feel Jesus saves or we save by doing something(s).

I say you are saved by living an sacrficiak lifestyle. When you dont (as in the scriptures I have) jesus' sacrifice means nothing. The act of salvation is not just belief. Can you imagune telling god: I can walk. I can talk. But since I have faith, I dont need to obey. Dont need to do what your son did cause you got me like that.

The latter and former interrelate.

BilliardsBall said:
You hate when people call out false doctrine, despite the Bible's numerous warnings about false doctrines, including warnings about denying Jesus came in flesh and not just Spirit.

I do. Cant change my mind. Its a terrible part of christianity I heavely disagree with. Its immoral.

BilliardsBall said:
God sacrificed Jesus in the flesh not to save those who trust Jesus, but to teach us by example that we can be saved by sacrificing our own flesh

Huh? Scripture says both

BilliardsBall said:
. The extreme warning that people who deny Jesus in flesh or antichrist/against Christ/demonic in doctrine only applies to "those who believe that Bible passage

I dont have personal attachments to scripture, so I basically call it how I experienced and studied.

BilliardsBall · Jul 9, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
I cant remember the point of our convo. Youre asking me something I cant connect to what Im sayin

I say you are saved by living an sacrficiak lifestyle. When you dont (as in the scriptures I have) jesus' sacrifice means nothing. The act of salvation is not just belief. Can you imagune telling god: I can walk. I can talk. But since I have faith, I dont need to obey. Dont need to do what your son did cause you got me like that.

The latter and former interrelate.

I do. Cant change my mind. Its a terrible part of christianity I heavely disagree with. Its immoral.

Huh? Scripture says both

I dont have personal attachments to scripture, so I basically call it how I experienced and studied.

Why would you call immoral anything the Bible teachers? And how would you know your reasoning is superior to the Bible when your reason is meant for you to trust Jesus better?

By the way, I've never said "we have trust in Jesus and so should never serve Him, follow Him or live sacrificially." What I've said is it's vital to understand what the Bible teaches regarding salvation. You've said above "I can make Jesus's sacrifice worth nothing" by not obeying. I say I can't add to what Jesus did, but I cannot reduce it either!

Unveiled Artist · Jul 9, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Why would you call immoral anything the Bible teachers? And how would you know your reasoning is superior to the Bible when your reason is meant for you to trust Jesus better?

By the way, I've never said "we have trust in Jesus and so should never serve Him, follow Him or live sacrificially." What I've said is it's vital to understand what the Bible teaches regarding salvation. You've said above "I can make Jesus's sacrifice worth nothing" by not obeying. I say I can't add to what Jesus did, but I cannot reduce it either!

I know this a bit personal. Im ot approciating scriptures from a personal view. So, when I talk about it, Im discusisng it as a whole not referring to individual authors as though they are living inspiring scripture.

Biblical reasoning is by era. We have different pespectives and opinions of scirptures based on what we know today from history to personal experiences. Spiritality is personal, but when push comes to shove its a book just as any other; and, its treated and studied without bias. Scripture is neither superior nor inferiror. That is how you project scrpture. Its not studied with that bias at all. Thats where I come from; neither of, against, belittled, nor supported.

What do you mean by trust jesus better? I dont know him in person. I just know what I read and experienced via the sacraments.

The latter, works (non-righteous) are needed for salvation; they are interconnected. You mentoned work is not needed for salvation. To me, thats like saying that christ just saved you just because you believe but you do nothing to be a part of that saving grace. To me, thats like using christ. But many christians feel they have no need to put towrads their free gift. Like getting something from your parent and youre old enough to do something in return as a thank you.

Interesting, but I never read that in scripture. Its something a lot of protestants do. I never see it in catholicism. (just my observation)

BilliardsBall · Jul 10, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
I know this a bit personal. Im ot approciating scriptures from a personal view. So, when I talk about it, Im discusisng it as a whole not referring to individual authors as though they are living inspiring scripture.

Biblical reasoning is by era. We have different pespectives and opinions of scirptures based on what we know today from history to personal experiences. Spiritality is personal, but when push comes to shove its a book just as any other; and, its treated and studied without bias. Scripture is neither superior nor inferiror. That is how you project scrpture. Its not studied with that bias at all. Thats where I come from; neither of, against, belittled, nor supported.

What do you mean by trust jesus better? I dont know him in person. I just know what I read and experienced via the sacraments.

The latter, works (non-righteous) are needed for salvation; they are interconnected. You mentoned work is not needed for salvation. To me, thats like saying that christ just saved you just because you believe but you do nothing to be a part of that saving grace. To me, thats like using christ. But many christians feel they have no need to put towrads their free gift. Like getting something from your parent and youre old enough to do something in return as a thank you.

Interesting, but I never read that in scripture. Its something a lot of protestants do. I never see it in catholicism. (just my observation)

I'm hearing your feelings in terms of "we need to respond to what Jesus has done" and I agree--but the Word still teaches zero works are required. Romans 4 specifically says someone with no works who trusts Jesus has righteousness.

Look at it this way if it helps you:

1. Learn Jesus from the Word, not just sacraments

2. Consider someone who repents on their deathbed--they will be grateful for what Jesus has done but will have no time to perform works of gratitude--they die and go to Heaven--Jesus addressed this in the parable of the workers--the one for the short time got the same reward as the other "workers"

Unveiled Artist · Jul 10, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
1. Learn Jesus from the Word, not just sacraments

The sacraments are the Word. All throughout history the bible has never been isolated as the core of the christian faith. Oral and writen tradition cannot be seperated. Also, most christian lurtigical churches have the sacraments. Many protestants do but they dont like to use catholic words to describe them.

BilliardsBall said:
2. Consider someone who repents on their deathbed--they will be grateful for what Jesus has done but will have no time to perform works of gratitude--they die and go to Heaven--Jesus addressed this in the parable of the workers--the one for the short time got the same reward as the other "workers"

You arent on your deathbed. People on their deathbed are blessed because they cannot do for god as jesus told believers to do in relationship to their salvation.

works=non-righteous/scriptural/godly

works=righteous=scriptural/non-godly (what jesus spoke agaisnt)

works =/= rituals

Based on context not the word works itself.

Ive listed scripture that puts (nonrighteus) works together with salvation many of times. It has nothing to do with a specific denomination. its purely scriptural.

Muffled · Jul 10, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Don't know if there is since no one seems to be able to communicate it, just tell me "their could be" or "god is not fully understood."

Because sounds are external. When they hit your ear and are translated by the brain, we make sense of them in language. So, if we read the bible and personalize it, we can "hear god" just as when I read my novel, I can hear the characters even though they aren't actually speaking.

I can't understand your point with the colors. Probably. I don't know.

Does god speak to you (regardless if it's being receptive, whisper, whatever means he does so)?

It's not easy. Christian religion is very bias. It caused wars because of it.

I don't see the difference between supernatural and natural. How do you tell the difference? All are apart of life.

I believe God is omni-present. I am not going to know that by communication unless He tells me so because I am only in one place. The Bible tells me and that must have been communicated by God to someone.

I believe that is what I said. However God speaks without the aid of a text.

I believe so and have learned that it is a spiritual gift that not every Christian has.

I believe the Christian religion is not biased but certainly there have been Christians who were and are. I believe there are many causes of war, and although religion is sometimes used as an excuse a person following the Christian religion would not start one.

A person does not naturally rise from the grave after being dead three days. A virgin does not naturally conceive.

BilliardsBall · Jul 11, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
The sacraments are the Word. All throughout history the bible has never been isolated as the core of the christian faith. Oral and writen tradition cannot be seperated. Also, most christian lurtigical churches have the sacraments. Many protestants do but they dont like to use catholic words to describe them.

You arent on your deathbed. People on their deathbed are blessed because they cannot do for god as jesus told believers to do in relationship to their salvation.

works=non-righteous/scriptural/godly

works=righteous=scriptural/non-godly (what jesus spoke agaisnt)

works =/= rituals

Based on context not the word works itself.

Ive listed scripture that puts (nonrighteus) works together with salvation many of times. It has nothing to do with a specific denomination. its purely scriptural.

I hear you loud and clear. Understand that what you're teaching about sacraments is traditional and is not anywhere listed in the scriptures. And I've looked, for sure.

Do you have a Bible quotation I can research explaining that the sacraments are the Word? I have seen Bible passages that the Word and Wisdom of God are in Jesus Christ, not in my being baptized or eating and drinking the Eucharist.

Also, does God have one rule for salvation or multiple rules? I can go to Hell by not living sacrificially or purposefully, if I understand you right, but a sinner on his deathbed is "blessed" as you wrote and gets a free pass? My point is the only free passes weren't free, the price was paid on the Cross.

God talking

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