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... and a man wrestled with him

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Berei****/Genesis 32:25-31
25. And Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until the break of dawn.
26. When he saw that he could not prevail against him, he touched the socket of his hip, and the socket of Jacob's hip became dislocated as he wrestled with him.
27. And he (the angel) said, "Let me go, for dawn is breaking," but he (Jacob) said, "I will not let you go unless you have blessed me."
28. So he said to him, "What is your name?" and he said, "Jacob."
29. And he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed."
30. And Jacob asked and said, "Now tell me your name," and he said, "Why is it that you ask for my name?" And he blessed him there.
31. And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."​
Real? Allegory? And, who was this man? It is an intriguing story ...
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
Why do you say "[an angel of]"? Is that your interpretation of the text, or is there something in the Hebrew that doesn't translate well to readable English? If this is the case, what is the literal, direct translation of the Hebrew?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
PetShopBoy88 said:
Why do you say "[an angel of]"? Is that your interpretation of the text, or is there something in the Hebrew that doesn't translate well to readable English? If this is the case, what is the literal, direct translation of the Hebrew?
The text is as translated in the Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi as found online at Chabad.org.

If you prefer, the JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh ...
29 Said he, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with beings divine and human, and have prevailed.​
Do you dispute the reference to "an angel"?
 
As I understand it, this reference is also considered by many Christians to be an Old Testament theophany of God. In other words, they believe that the "angel" was actually the pre-incarnate Christ appearing to Jacob.

FGS
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
The first think I thought of when I read this was The Epic of Gilgamesh. I believe there's an interesting similarity.
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I have always read this as an allegory of prayer: which is sometimes like wrestling with God.

Genesis 32:9 Then Jacob prayed, "O God of my father Abraham, God of my father Isaac, O LORD, who said to me, 'Go back to your country and your relatives, and I will make you prosper,' 10 I am unworthy of all the kindness and faithfulness you have shown your servant. I had only my staff when I crossed this Jordan, but now I have become two groups. 11 Save me, I pray, from the hand of my brother Esau, for I am afraid he will come and attack me, and also the mothers with their children. 12 But you have said, 'I will surely make you prosper and will make your descendants like the sand of the sea, which cannot be counted.' "
NIV
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
It is better for some to struggle with God than not to believe at all. Believers who don't struggle with God, in my experience, only believe mindlessly.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
As I understand it, this reference is also considered by many Christians to be an Old Testament theophany of God. In other words, they believe that the "angel" was actually the pre-incarnate Christ appearing to Jacob.
Frankly, I have little respect for his kind of baseless, self-serving reverse engineering.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
nutshell said:
The first think I thought of when I read this was The Epic of Gilgamesh. I believe there's an interesting similarity.
Thanks. The Gilgamesh/Enkidu parallel never occurred to me.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
angellous_evangellous said:
It is better for some to struggle with God than not to believe at all. Believers who don't struggle with God, in my experience, only believe mindlessly.
So the 'man' in Gen 32:25 was God? Current Jewish translations and Hosea 12:4 disagree.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Jayhawker Soule said:
So the 'man' in Gen 32:25 was God? Current Jewish translations and Hosea 12:4 disagree.

"Struggle with God" in my remark is a play on the name that Jacob received after this event - "Israel."
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
angellous_evangellous said:
It is better for some to struggle with God than not to believe at all. Believers who don't struggle with God, in my experience, only believe mindlessly.

But he didn't just struggle. He overcame!
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Jayhawker Soule said:
Berei****/Genesis 32:25-31
25. And Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until the break of dawn.
26. When he saw that he could not prevail against him, he touched the socket of his hip, and the socket of Jacob's hip became dislocated as he wrestled with him.
27. And he (the angel) said, "Let me go, for dawn is breaking," but he (Jacob) said, "I will not let you go unless you have blessed me."
28. So he said to him, "What is your name?" and he said, "Jacob."
29. And he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed."
30. And Jacob asked and said, "Now tell me your name," and he said, "Why is it that you ask for my name?" And he blessed him there.
31. And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."
Real?
Very.

Allegory?
That too.

And, who was this man?
It's fascinating that Jacob did not know or recognize against whom he struggled, and now we ask the same question.

It is an intriguing story ...

I find a lot of meaning in this story because I too so often strugggle with God (or His representive, my understanding of God). So many stories of the Bible have people of great faith who, when faced with doing God's will, courageously say 'Yes.' Here is an example where Jacob is being asked to do God's will, to go reconcile with his brother whom he fears will kill him. He has not yet crossed the river; he's still not fully committed to the act. He struggles with God's will and it says that he prevails!

The manifestation of God (or His representative in the angel) seems to have limited his power intentionally for the struggle (why not break Jacob's hip at the outset if he wishes to subdue Jacob? If that had happened and God simply subdued Jacob, compelled him by force, what kind of God and what kind of relationship with God would that be?). The struggle and the prevailing are both significant.

Finally, it's not Jacob who crosses the river, but Israel. A transformed Jacob. Not a subdued or cowed Jacob, but one without fear.

I hope my simple ramblings are not too out of place in this fine thread.

lunamoth
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
So you are saying in spite of obvious superiority (a mere touch produced pain) Jacob's spirit prevailed in the end, transforming him into something greater. I like that. I believe that this is "God's job".
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
PetShopBoy88 said:
He didn't say it WAS a man. He just said it wasn't God.
Doesn't Gen. 32:24 specifically say "a man" wrestled with him?

Is the paranthetical reference to "an angel" an appropriate translation, or is it interpretive based on 32:29-30?

And then you get 32:31 where Israel names this place "Paniel" which the Christian translations render as "saw God face to face" but the Hebrew translation above has as "saw an angel face to face."

As I've said before, Hebrew is not my area. But how could this be so different between the Christian English translations and the Jewish ones?

The Septuagint has:

εἶδον γὰρ θεὸν πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον

Which is "saw God face to face."

θεὸν is "God," not "angel", which would be ἄγγελος [FONT=Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
 
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