Jehovah's Witnesses continuing persecution in Russia....

Mox said:

I would caution all who live in glasshouses and would throw stones....

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I couldn't agree more. If you're going to chuck stones at a different denomination then claim the world would be a better place if everyone belonged to your religion, be prepared to have a few of those stones lobbed back.

Feel free to throw a few in my direction.

Audie said:

Ignorance is indeed a terrible handicap.

You've provided a tidy way of explaining a big part
of why the Chinese govt lacks enthusiasm for JW.

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Well, we are obedient to our governments in all the important ways....we just will not be controlled in our thinking or actions when it comes to serving our God. If you want to be controlled in that way, that is entirely your choice. The Chinese government is not exactly enthusiastic about freedom though, is it?

The only way you can get people to behave in a way that offends normal human sensibilities is to use propaganda. Whip up emotions and dehumanize your enemy.....then it becomes your duty to kill them, because you're the good guys.....right? We see no good guys....we just see murderers and we don't want to join them in a blood bath.
But, say the nation you were born in, decided to go to war with the nation you live in now...where would your loyalties be? Who would you be standing "squarely behind"? just curious....

Now, if they were a group driven to overachievement
in, oh, math and science say, and they stood squarely
behind the nation, ready to defend it any way they
could, it would likely turn out that any eccentricities
could be overlooked.

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Ah, "overachievement" is a very important concept to Chinese people I have noticed....probably because the culture is built around the importance of achievement leading to wealth and status....having endured poverty for so long under communism its not surprising. Parents often boast about their children's achievements as if somehow they should bask in the glory.

I had the privilege of studying the Bible with three Chinese children at the request of their mother who was not a Christian but wanted to expose her children to Christianity in what was now their homeland. Their father made sure that they had the best possible education and each went on to university, with a view to gaining a successful career....and the trappings that go with it. None of them could get a job in the fields for which they had degrees....but each of those kids chose to become Jehovah's Witnesses....and not one of them gained employment in the professions for which they were trained and qualified. But they turned out to be fantastic human beings who love their God and serve him in whatever capacity they can. They earn a modest living and are very happy. If you ask them if they are disappointed about not slaving for a corporation and having wealth and status due to their education, they will just laugh at you. Our material needs are small.
A wise person once said...."The best things in life are not things".

As it is, the JW are pretty much the opposite.

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Yes, its called neutrality....you know like Switzerland was "neutral" in the last World War. It means not taking sides and it means not killing other humans for any reason, which is rather barbaric in this day and age, don't you think? Shouldn't we have achieved a more mature way to deal with our issues?

Why would any sane govt want that to spread?

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Oh, I don't know.....perhaps not having jails full of drug addicts, theives and murderers might be nice. Having people pay their taxes might be a plus too....and what about alcohol fueled violence which plagues every nation? Police might have little to do, which means they wouldn't need as many and it would save the government a pot of money. JW's pose no terrorist threat either......so its not all negative.....and besides we form only a small portion of the population, we would hardly be missed in the armed forces, I can assure you. Who wants soldiers they can't indoctrinate?

The Ragin Pagan said:

And thus you are dishonest not only to those you tell this to, but to yourselves as well. No one worships the flag, but by disrespecting it as you do (don't bother denying it, I know how your kind uses the word 'idol') you are disrespecting the nation that it represents.

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This has been thrashed out in the Supreme Court. It isn't about disrespect, its about the sacred nature of the cloth and the 'religious' connotations attached to its adoration. I am a Christian and we honor no flag of any nation.

" In a 1943 decision, West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court determined that a group of Jehovah’s Witnesses who objected to the flag salute and mandatory pledge recitation for religious reasons could not be forced to participate.1 This means that public school students who choose not to join in the flag salute for reasons of conscience may not be compelled to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. . . .
In the Barnette decision, however, the Court reversed course, declaring:

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.3

The Pledge of Allegiance has been a source of controversy for other reasons as well. Some students and parents view the words "under God" in the Pledge as government endorsement of religion under the Establishment Clause.4 This argument had failed in the courts until 2002 when a panel of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that state-mandated recitations of the pledge in public schools were unconstitutional because of the words "under God."5 Most legal experts agree that this ruling will be overruled -- either by the full circuit court or by the U.S. Supreme Court. In a number of past decisions, the Court has viewed references to God in patriotic exercises and on our money as "ceremonial deism" that does not rise to the level of government establishment of religion prohibited by the First Amendment."

faqs

So would you uphold one part of that ruling and not the other? I'm glad you are not my judge....and be glad that I am not yours. Are your gods in that pledge?

The Ragin Pagan said:

And think of how your vote might have changed those crimes.

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Are you serious? You think that in America, where voting is not compulsory, that people care about voting? Tell them who is worth voting for? Talk to the hundreds of thousands who do not vote because they just couldn't be bothered to support the lies of their politicians any longer.

If you don't vote, then you have zero leg to stand on when you complain about the laws of a land.

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Now that is just plain funny....you honestly believe than anyone has a leg to stand on when a government makes a law that they disagree with? What country do you live in again? La La Land?

Just as you can also swear up and down that you're no threat to anyone--but words are wind, and we have no guarantee of you supposed good intentions or nature.

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We are unarmed....and we don't believe in violence...so where is this threat that we pose? Funny how people are suspicious about what others do when they would do it themselves....you sound like more of a threat than we would ever be.

The Ragin Pagan said:

That's a bold claim that you have no real right or information to make. Your church is also a registered "charity", so the Ivory (watch)Tower doesn't pay taxes. (A burden of $368 million for the city of Brooklyn). Oh, and then there's a case from 1980 where your group tried to weasel out of taxes in the amount of $183,000. Then there's cases for embezzling... (that means stealing money). Not quite so honest and upright, it seems.

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Anyone can pick out any religion or organization and point out the misdemeanors or mistakes made by individuals....either you never make them, or you believe everything anyone tells you.
If criminal activity is uncovered in our ranks, (and we are not immune to individuals going bad and breaking the law) we will disfellowship any person who brings reproach on Jehovah's name by breaking the law unrepentantly.
The Bible is full of those who broke the law and were duly punished. Who said we were perfect.

The Ragin Pagan said:

Well deeje, I've never failed to pay taxes. I've never embezzled from my jobs.

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Me either...how amazing that you think you represent everyone else.....?

The Ragin Pagan said:

And I actively vote, giving me the civic right to complain when my tax dollars are spent on frivolous bulls**t that I morally and ethically disagree with. So on those counts, I'm ahead of your group.

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And where has that got you, I wonder? Did the fact that you voted give you some special privileges? Your tax dollars will continue to be spent unwisely and there's not a thing you can do about it....or hadn't you noticed?

The Ragin Pagan said:

But, it's easy to point at things that are taken automatically (it's nigh impossible to not pay income and sales tax, unless you serve in the military, but we know how you people feel about that too...) One could even argue that it's a cheap argument to pitch forward "we pay taxes" as though it's a measure of service and benevolence to the American people. How thankful we are of your automatically collected money... And yet you don't vote, you don't serve in the military, you defer authority to your long-dead "king of the Jews"... Cherry on top, all you lot really seem to do is go door-to-door to tell everyone else what we're doing wrong, as though you've got all the great answers in your perpetual state of closed-doors-do-nothingness.

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I am not American...it amuses me when people assume that everyone is American. I assure you I am very grateful NOT to live in America for more reasons than I can count.

The Ragin Pagan said:

I gave you more than you've given me, deeje, because I vote to maintain the laws that let you spew your nonsense at my door. I value my right to practice my own faith (put under duress by your ilk, so it's funny that you toss this at me,) which is why I vote to maintain it.

What have you done to secure my religious freedom?

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We went to court and fought for religious freedom in all the nations that tried to take it away from us. It was done through all the legal means we had at our disposal. It makes the news and people are made aware of the victories we have scored, not only for our own religious freedom, but for everyone else as well...you included. Not surprisingly, you seem unaware of this.

http://www.historynet.com/what-we-owe-jehovahs-witnesses.htm

Have a nice day.....

Armoured said:

I'm a nurse. I'm pretty happy with my knowledge around transfusions and other blood product treatments, thanks.

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Are you up to date on all the latest bloodless techniques and why they are preferable? Did you watch the video I posted from the Australian Government's website? Are you aware of the global movement towards bloodless medicine?

I have found many doctors and hospital personnel to be way behind the times on this one, preferring to implement the same old procedures because they haven't really examined the other side, believing it to be nonsense....a bit like the medicinal cannabis issue. Doctors who have been trained in Big Pharma medicine seem to have an aversion to even talking about this wonder plant. Its time for the old school to get out of the dark ages and into functional medicine.....its the 21st century after all.

Here's a good resource so you can decide for yourself if JW's are better than everyone else or if they are the same as every other group of humans with the usual mix of good, evil and all things in between.

http://aawa.co/jw-crime-map/

Armoured said:

I can think of several where they lie about the faith of others, just sayin'

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Audie said:

Really?

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Its a strange thing, but so many others seem to be able to identify sun worship in Roman Catholicism except Roman Catholics..... Is it hiding?

That depends on where you look I guess.



Did Jesus tell his disciples to do this? If so, where will I find that?

When Jesus broke the bread at his last Passover, what shape was that bread?
Was it round like the sun? Was that symbol of the sun held in a monstrance?



Or did you never wonder where those halos came from?


Can you tell me why there is an Egyptian obelisk in the middle of a Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter's Square? That obelisk is a symbol of the sun god Ra. The sun god in Babylon was Shamash. Same god...different cultures, united at the Vatican.




Sun worship was prevalent in Rome when the Emperor declared Roman Catholicism to be the new state religion. In order to convert his pagan citizens to "Christianity", they were permitted to keep their symbols and festivals under a thin "Christian" veneer. This apostasy from Christ's teachings was foretold by the very "Lord" they claimed to worship. He will declare to them "I never knew you". (Matthew 7:21-23)

John53 said:

Here's a good resource so you can decide for yourself if JW's are better than everyone else or if they are the same as every other group of humans with the usual mix of good, evil and all things in between.

JW Crime Map

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Nice bit of JW bashing there John....how much trawling through the trash heap did it take to find these?

OMG...a crime map of JW's...now I've seen everything.

Tell me, is there a crime map for atheists?

You know what's funny....once a person claiming to be a JW commits a crime, they have sinned against the law of God. All such ones who unrepentantly abandon God's laws, abandon God and are therefor abandoned by us.

These crime stats do not apply because none of these crimes were really committed by JW's at all. Nor were the crimes committed because the perpetrators claimed to be JW's....just the opposite in fact.

Take a look through the Bible and see how many of God's people succumbed to bad behavior.....its human nature and contrary to popular belief, there isn't a requirement to be perfect.....but we do our best to uphold Jehovah's laws. Those who don't, have no business claiming to be in our brotherhood, nor do they define who we are as a body of Christians in the world.

Nice try. Do you not have anything better to do?

John53 said:

I couldn't agree more. If you're going to chuck stones at a different denomination then claim the world would be a better place if everyone belonged to your religion, be prepared to have a few of those stones lobbed back.

Feel free to throw a few in my direction.

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Stones of persecution are not in my arsenal.

Every believer of almost all religions, thinks everyone else should also believe in their particular denomination or faith. So...

The persecution of any denomination or faith is unacceptable.
Period.

In the UK there is growing antipathy for Muslims, as well as in many other western nations, so this issue is not restricted to Russia or the JW's.

People here are responding irrationally to fear of terrorism and of being culturally/ethnically marginalised in their cities and towns.

They are told by right wing mouthpieces that their children will lose out on jobs healthcare and education access because foreigners and non indigenous natives, especially the 'breeder' Muslims, will mop it all up for themselves. They are told that the Muslims will install an Islamic Theocracy in the UK eventually. All of this is utter bull.

What these right wing berks wont show you is evidence that not only are Muslims human, with the same dreams fears and needs as other humans, but evidence that Muslims, individuals, are often extremely kind and decent people.

Here is an example.


The first man is a Sikh, explaining what he saw, the Muslim man remained anonymous, btw.

Deeje said:

Nice bit of JW bashing there John

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Playing the martyr card now?

....how much trawling through the trash heap did it take to find these?

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Not much, took about 30 seconds.

OMG...a crime map of JW's...now I've seen everything.

Tell me, is there a crime map for atheists?

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Check it out and let me know, it would be interesting.

You know what's funny....once a person claiming to be a JW commits a crime, they have sinned against the law of God. All such ones who unrepentantly abandon God's laws, abandon God and are therefor abandoned by us.

These crime stats do not apply because none of these crimes were really committed by JW's at all. Nor were the crimes committed because the perpetrators claimed to be JW's....just the opposite in fact.

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That's handy but not very honest.

Maybe we can kick criminals out of the human race and reduce crime stats to zero?

Take a look through the Bible and see how many of God's people succumbed to bad behavior.....its human nature and contrary to popular belief, there isn't a requirement to be perfect.....but we do our best to uphold Jehovah's laws. Those who don't, have no business claiming to be in our brotherhood, nor do they define who we are as a body of Christians in the world.

Nice try. Do you not have anything better to do?

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I don't need to, your reply compliments my point. There's good and bad within all groups of people, just because you belong to a particular religious group doesn't make you any better (or any worse) than the general population.

John53 said:

Maybe we can kick criminals out of the human race and reduce crime stats to zero?

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I am sure there are many people who would be only too happy to do that.
I have a criminal mind, probably, but not a criminal soul. So I wouldnt vote for it.

Mox said:

I don't really care to be honest. I have little time for nationalism. Plus I am not American.

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Ran out of stones so soon? Pity, though you've still got one left to assume I'm a "nationalist". Ah, but you're not even American... I wouldn't expect you to understand (though your own flag - and those of your country's subjects - is rife with meaning and symbolism itself), but it my experience that's never stopped rampant assumption and judgmental criticism (and at times, hypocrisy) from across the pond.

Mox said:

What does your nation stand for precisely?

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Thirteen bars and stripes stand for the thirteen original colonies and states. Red stands for the blood of those patriots who fought against tyranny, hardiness, and valor. White symbolizes peace, purity, and innocence. Fifty stars - one for each state of the Union - stand on a field of blue; the blue to represent vigilance, perseverance, and justice. Our flag embodies the memory and spirit of our nation, where we came from, strove to be, and fought against. It stands for the hope and opportunity that should wait for those who come to our nation's shores, listed on the Statue of Liberty - both of them. Or did you think that the American Spirit is just what's shown on FOX News and CNN?

Ah, but I should celebrate the flag burners. Jump for joy at their "expression". I won't ever say that respect of the flag should be forced on a person (because then it's hardly respect, is it?) but those damn fools in their temper tantrum are burning and discarding the one symbol that actually stands for what they're fighting for.

Mox said:

This thread is full of unnecessary and purile attacks on the faith of another poster, with demonisation and mud slinging galore.

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It's hardly demonizing the watchtower when there's evidence of the accusations. Demonizing is, rather, what they're doing to Catholics, or non-Christian groups that they know equally nothing about.

Audie said:

Care to give an example or two?

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How do you mean? An example of what?

outlawState said:

There is every reason to construe JWs as a cult, due to the denial of the doctrine of gehenna, belief in the death of the soul at physical death, Jesus being no more and no less than a perfect human &etc and not the son of God that came from the Logos, although JWs do tend to equivocate on that one.

A penchant for misinterpreting dates and times connected to prophesy discloses a gnosis based approach as also the supremacy of the 144,000 over all others, which is Manichaen in conception. Denying personality to the spirit of God is absurd, and its attempts to dethrone the Logos equally so.

Refusal of blood transfusions make JW a positively odious force in political eyes. The Watch Tower Society has acknowledged that some members have died after refusing blood.

So whilst JWs are entitled as anyone else to deny the "Jesus is God" delusion as also the philosophical trinity, there are elements of corruption in doctrine that make the errors of the JWs unacceptable to many.

Moreover there are no grounds for supposing that every country should tolerate every cult. There is no human right to a deviant belief. "Discussing the bible" can mask a catalogue of heresy. May be the Russian experience is a good time for the Watchtower society to accept that not everyone finds their doctrines palatable. I myself believe that they are extremely harmful.

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outlawState,
You have mentioned several beliefs that you consider good reasons for persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Each of the things, except the one about dates, that were misunderstood, over hundred years ago, show a lack of understanding the Holy Scriptures.
Remember, it seems according to the Bible, that it is the ones who are persecuted who are really doing God’s will, John 15:16-20, 2Timothy 3:12.
Read and meditate on these Scriptures, for, if you are not persecuted, you, it seems, you are not one of God’s people, Hebrews 12:6-8, Luke 6:20-26.
Do not believe everything people tell you, research the Bible for yourself, and pray for God’s Spirit, and you will understand God’s ways, Proverbs 2:1-10, 1Corinthians 2:4-10.

The Ragin Pagan said:

Ah, but you're not even American... I wouldn't expect you to understand

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Ooh you sassy mare...

How very rude.

The Ragin Pagan said:

Or did you think that the American Spirit is just what's shown on FOX News and CNN?

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I frikken hope not.

Deeje said:

This has been thrashed out in the Supreme Court.

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Whatever has been "thrashed out" doesn't change that your ilk are dishonest in your presentation. You say that you respect our nation and our government, and yet you don't. Not at all--I mean, how can you, when you believe that it's going to be destroyed when your god-king comes floating down to destroy everything? You can't. And their is no "sacred nature" or religious connotation to national flags; that's just more Jehovian word-twisting.

Are you serious? You think that in America, where voting is not compulsory, that people care about voting?

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Yes, I am serious, and I don't think - no, I know - you don't have the data to determine how many Americans care about voting. I'm sure it could be figured out, percentage wise, but you're just pulling suggested numbers to be dramatic. But make no mistake, I view those "hundreds of thousands" who don't vote just as much as social parasite as you and yours. Other Americans don't support political lies either but you know what we do about it? We vote against them, And if we lose, then at least we tried. But you who "keep your hands clean" are honestly just the worst; only daring to fight when you think your victory is assured. It speaks volumes about your ethics, really.

Now that is just plain funny....you honestly believe than anyone has a leg to stand on when a government makes a law that they disagree with? What country do you live in again? La La Land?

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Yeah; those of us who actually contribute to the system. Your fellows are like the roommate that doesn't life a finger around the house, but still expects to be treated as equal to everyone else making the house work. We can at least say "this isn't the law that I voted for" when we're outraged about the state of things. What do Jehovians get to do?

Funny how people are suspicious about what others do when they would do it themselves...

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I generally don't trust people that excuse away lying and dishonesty with their religion.

Anyone can pick out any religion or organization and point out the misdemeanors or mistakes made by individuals...

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And yet you're hear singing high praises to your organizations virtue as though you're better than all others. If you've got just the same corruption as anyone else, what then makes you so special? Nothing, is what.

I am not American...

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Ah, yet another foreigner sticking their ripe nose into the way our nation does things and seeing fit to try and analyze them. I'm hardly surprise that you can't mind your own, but I guess a small part just hopes for some integrity while doing it.

We went to court and fought for religious freedom in all the nations that tried to take it away from us. It was done through all the legal means we had at our disposal.

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And now you're fighting in a nation that doesn't seem to be so forgiving of social parasitism.

not only for our own religious freedom, but for everyone else as well...you included.

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Spare me the false heroics. The day that a Jehovian truly cares about my religious freedom is the day your ilk stops coming to my door to tell me that my religious freedom is a road to damnation and destruction. Not to mention the fact that despite their "victory", our currency remains (officially) unchanged, as does the pledge of allegiance.

Mox said:

Ooh you sassy mare...

How very rude.

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Yep, sure is. But nothing more is deserved, when it's often treated abroad that we Americans are culture-less and ignorant.

John53 said:

There's good and bad within all groups of people, just because you belong to a particular religious group doesn't make you any better (or any worse) than the general population.

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I have explained quite clearly our position on these things. You seem to equate what I said with being better than anyone else......not so. We just view things a bit differently. We do have a very low crime rate however, if you just want stats. (USA) Apparently atheists rate below Catholics and Protestants in the top 3....

Prison Incarceration and Religious Preference

Catholic 29,267 31.432%
Protestant 26,162 28.097%
None/Atheist/Unknown 18,537 19.908%
Muslim 5,435 5.837%
American Indian 2,408 2.586%
Nation of Islam 1,734 1.862%
Rastafarian 1,485 1.595%
Jewish 1,325 1.423%
Church of Christ 1,303 1.399%
Pentecostal 1,093 1.174%
Moorish 1,066 1.145%
Buddhist 882 0.947%
Jehovah's Witnesses 665 0.714%
Adventist 621 0.667%
Eastern Orthodox 375 0.403%
Latter-day Saints 298 0.320%
Scientology 190 0.204%
Hindu 119 0.128%
Santeria 117 0.126%
Sikh 14 0.015%
Baha'i 9 0.010%
ISKCON 7 0.008%
-------------------- ------ --------
Total 93,112 100.000%

The Ragin Pagan said:

Thirteen bars and stripes stand for the thirteen original colonies and states. Red stands for the blood of those patriots who fought against tyranny, hardiness, and valor. White symbolizes peace, purity, and innocence. Fifty stars - one for each state of the Union - stand on a field of blue; the blue to represent vigilance, perseverance, and justice. Our flag embodies the memory and spirit of our nation, where we came from, strove to be, and fought against.

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Hmmm. You see this is the difference between the UK and the USA.
The British know that history is written by the winners and that the true reality of history is that it is far from pure and innocent or peaceful.

The USA has it's hands soaked in blood. As does the UK.

Those dirty flags are symbols of western hypocracy and capitalist excess.

Millions of Vietnamese people, slaughtered by the US armed forces. Whole governments overthrown by the CIA. Unstable regions, invaded and plundered under false pretences. Impoverished nations exploited via trade and their resources and people, handed to predatory international corporations. Now a president who forcibly removed thousands of childen from their parents, without moral or ethical restraint he continues to make a mockery of your precious flag.

Justice? Equity? Freedom? Really?