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Living for self vs. living for God

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How important is personal happiness? What I am referring to is having material possessions, engaging in recreational activities that are fun, and engaging in activities that are physically pleasurable, oft referred to as the things of the flesh.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

I am sure there are many more verses like these but I do not have the time to look for them right now. Jesus certainly had the Spirit of God and the Truth from God.

One can look at this from a psychological, philosophical or a religious viewpoint. I used to look at it from a psychological viewpoint but now I look at it from a religious viewpoint.Consequently, I have done a complete 180 and the entire focus of my life has changed. I am a lot happier on a very deep spiritual level, but I look around me and everyone around me seems to be enjoying themselves in a materialistic sense, so I feel really left out. However, I cannot turn back the clock and go back to my old life when all I cared about was my personal happiness. I cannot consider that important anymore because I know it isn’t. I cannot justify such a life and I really don’t want one.

I am often feel like nobody understands how I feel, not even people who share my religion. Does anyone here understand how I feel?

My husband understands how I feel and he is on the same page although his focus is very different from mine. I tend to look at individuals in need and he looks at the crumbling of society. But neither one of us cares about material world enjoyments, except for the cats whom we both love more than anything.

So one might ask, why can’t I justify a life based upon personal happiness? Well, it is in the Writings of my religion and it is also in the Bible. Baha’u’llah wrote a lot about this subject. Here are a few passages:

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose….. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.” Gleanings, p. 337

“It behoveth thee to consecrate thyself to the Will of God. Whatsoever hath been revealed in His Tablets is but a reflection of His Will. So complete must be thy consecration, that every trace of worldly desire will be washed from thine heart. This is the meaning of true unity.”
Gleanings, p. 338

“Suffer not the habitation wherein dwellethMy undying love for thee to be destroyed through the tyranny of covetous desires, and overcloud not the beauty of the heavenly Youth with the dust of self and passion.”
Gleanings, p. 323

“The Most Great Name beareth Me witness! How sad if any man were, in this Day, to rest his heart on the transitory things of this world! Arise, and cling firmly to the Cause of God. Be most loving one to another. Burn away, wholly for the sake of the Well-Beloved, the veil of selfwith the flame of the undying Fire, and with faces joyous and beaming with light, associate with your neighbor.”
Gleanings, p. 316

This is a very high standard of behavior. Am I taking it too seriously, too literally? Am I being too austere? I just want to do right by God.

Of course, none of this is new. On this subject of living for self vs. living for God, Jesus said all the same things that Baha’u’llah later reiterated.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

But it seems to me as if purportedly religious people in American society generally just ignore these kinds of verses and keep doing what they are doing, living for the material world. The United States is submerged in a sea of materialism. It is thus no wonder I cannot find anyone who understands how I feel.

How can people call themselves followers of the One True God if all they think about are their own desires? I consider this hypocrisy. I am sure there are many devout Christians and other religious people who are not this way, but these are not the ones who I am surrounded by in my day to day life. I would certainly love to hear from some Christians or other religious people on this forum about how they live and what they consider important. That might help me counterbalance what I am normally exposed to.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
There is nothing wrong with enjoying the good things G-d gives us. Things like good clothes, nice food, a good place to live, money, sexual pleasure, etc.; these things are all good things if we remind ourselves that they are from G-d and He can take them just as easily as bring them. We are to be happy, and if owning five thousand different coloured pencils makes you happy and it's not spiritually detrimental or become an idol, then own five thousand coloured pencils. G-d didn't create us to be miserable and live in suffering and poverty and asceticism.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
How important is personal happiness? What I am referring to is having material possessions, engaging in recreational activities that are fun, and engaging in activities that are physically pleasurable, oft referred to as the things of the flesh.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

I am sure there are many more verses like these but I do not have the time to look for them right now. Jesus certainly had the Spirit of God and the Truth from God.

One can look at this from a psychological, philosophical or a religious viewpoint. I used to look at it from a psychological viewpoint but now I look at it from a religious viewpoint.Consequently, I have done a complete 180 and the entire focus of my life has changed. I am a lot happier on a very deep spiritual level, but I look around me and everyone around me seems to be enjoying themselves in a materialistic sense, so I feel really left out. However, I cannot turn back the clock and go back to my old life when all I cared about was my personal happiness. I cannot consider that important anymore because I know it isn’t. I cannot justify such a life and I really don’t want one.

I am often feel like nobody understands how I feel, not even people who share my religion. Does anyone here understand how I feel?

My husband understands how I feel and he is on the same page although his focus is very different from mine. I tend to look at individuals in need and he looks at the crumbling of society. But neither one of us cares about material world enjoyments, except for the cats whom we both love more than anything.

So one might ask, why can’t I justify a life based upon personal happiness? Well, it is in the Writings of my religion and it is also in the Bible. Baha’u’llah wrote a lot about this subject. Here are a few passages:

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose….. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.” Gleanings, p. 337

“It behoveth thee to consecrate thyself to the Will of God. Whatsoever hath been revealed in His Tablets is but a reflection of His Will. So complete must be thy consecration, that every trace of worldly desire will be washed from thine heart. This is the meaning of true unity.”
Gleanings, p. 338

“Suffer not the habitation wherein dwellethMy undying love for thee to be destroyed through the tyranny of covetous desires, and overcloud not the beauty of the heavenly Youth with the dust of self and passion.”
Gleanings, p. 323

“The Most Great Name beareth Me witness! How sad if any man were, in this Day, to rest his heart on the transitory things of this world! Arise, and cling firmly to the Cause of God. Be most loving one to another. Burn away, wholly for the sake of the Well-Beloved, the veil of selfwith the flame of the undying Fire, and with faces joyous and beaming with light, associate with your neighbor.”
Gleanings, p. 316

This is a very high standard of behavior. Am I taking it too seriously, too literally? Am I being too austere? I just want to do right by God.

Of course, none of this is new. On this subject of living for self vs. living for God, Jesus said all the same things that Baha’u’llah later reiterated.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

But it seems to me as if purportedly religious people in American society generally just ignore these kinds of verses and keep doing what they are doing, living for the material world. The United States is submerged in a sea of materialism. It is thus no wonder I cannot find anyone who understands how I feel.

How can people call themselves followers of the One True God if all they think about are their own desires? I consider this hypocrisy. I am sure there are many devout Christians and other religious people who are not this way, but these are not the ones who I am surrounded by in my day to day life. I would certainly love to hear from some Christians or other religious people on this forum about how they live and what they consider important. That might help me counterbalance what I am normally exposed to.

Try not to see self vs. God. If god created everything, there is no such thing. Your material self is also your spiritual. God made both body and spirit.

With that said, you can possess material things too. God (bible) was concerned with idolism not just the idea of having things. He didnt want people putting things over him. If you dont put things over god, why split self vs spirit when they can act as a reflection of each other?

(To answer your question, I havent had the experience you go through. My art is highly material and its a reflection of my spirit. Some god-believing artist say god works through them when they make art.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them

23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, Colossians 3:23

-

--Yes. Some people see material as idols. Not all of us who dont believe in the abraham god do. A lot of us see material, like the physical earth, to some a tool of expression of and from god himself.

Abdu’l-Bahá. “Yes: In the Bahá’í Cause arts, sciences and all crafts are (counted as) worship. The man who makes a piece of notepaper to the best of his ability, conscientiously, concentrating all his forces on perfecting it, is giving praise to God. Briefly, all effort and exertion put forth by man from the fullness of his 177 heart is worship, if it is prompted by the highest motives and the will to do service to humanity. This is worship: to serve mankind and to minister to the needs of the people. Service is prayer. A physician ministering to the sick, gently, tenderly, free from prejudice and believing in the solidarity of the human race, he is giving praise” (‘Abdu’l-Bahá. [1912-12-26] 1972).”

--Its all in context and perspective. Change your perspective, and there would be more universalism in your speech.

Thus says the lord.....
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There is nothing wrong with enjoying the good things G-d gives us. Things like good clothes, nice food, a good place to live, money, sexual pleasure, etc.; these things are all good things if we remind ourselves that they are from G-d and He can take them just as easily as bring them. We are to be happy, and if owning five thousand different coloured pencils makes you happy and it's not spiritually depressive or become an idol, then own five thousand coloured pencils. G-d didn't create us to be miserable and live in suffering and poverty and asceticism.
But to the degree that we are attached to any of those things they will come in between us and God. There is just no way around that. All the major religions teach this.

I do not agree with most Baha’is. Most Baha’is believe in enjoying the good things and they go off the last two sentences of this longer passage:

“Say: Should your conduct, O people, contradict your professions, how think ye, then, to be able to distinguish yourselves from them who, though professing their faith in the Lord their God, have, as soon as He came unto them in the cloud of holiness, refused to acknowledge Him, and repudiated His truth? Disencumber yourselves of all attachment to this world and the vanities thereof. Beware that ye approach them not, inasmuch as they prompt you to walk after your own lusts and covetous desires, and hinder you from entering the straight and glorious Path.

Know ye that by “the world” is meant your unawareness of Him Who is your Maker, and your absorption in aught else but Him. The “life to come,” on the other hand, signifieth the things that give you a safe approach to God, the All-Glorious, the Incomparable. Whatsoever deterreth you, in this Day, from loving God is nothing but the world. Flee it, that ye may be numbered with the blest. Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 275-276

He is saying two opposite things in that passage and I have never been able to understand why He does an about face. Moreover, I cannot reconcile those last two sentences with numerous other passages such as the following:

“By the righteousness of God! The world and its vanities, and its glory, and whatever delights it can offer, are all, in the sight of God, as worthless as, nay, even more contemptible than, dust and ashes. Would that the hearts of men could comprehend it! Cleanse yourselves thoroughly, O people of Bahá, from the defilement of the world, and of all that pertaineth unto it. God Himself beareth Me witness. The things of the earth ill beseem you. Cast them away unto such as may desire them, and fasten your eyes upon this most holy and effulgent Vision.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 304

I believe that whatever Baha’u’llah wrote was identical with the Will of God Himself. It says what it says. Baha’u’llah either meant what He said or not. He should not write things and not expect us to take them seriously. I just want to do what God wants me to do. That is where I am at with this.

I do not even care about worldly things so it is no big deal for me to give them up. I had my fill of those things earlier in my life. They do not interest me anymore. I get nothing from them so I see no reason to pursue them.

Mind you, I am not talking about depriving myself and living in poverty, but I do not need any more than the basics.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I don't mind people who enjoy sex, movies, socializing, money, mansions, luxuries, hobbies, recreation, sports, comfort, food, sports cars, yachts, Doctorates, reputation, praise, fans, phat bank account etc...as long as they don't harm others to obtain it...

It's just, I've lost enjoyment in those things, or the pleasure I can get in them is quite empty, shallow, and temporary, so I just long for heaven, holiness, enligtenment, understanding, and unity with God, and heavenly beings...

...and death is inevitable, so I hope it happens before old-age...

...but if God wants me to be an old fart, wearing depends, in a nursing home, some day...ugh...Ill give a very reluctant "God's will be done!":weary: to that!
 

james blunt

Well-Known Member
How important is personal happiness?

You left the materialistic world to find your happiness. You are happy , just not the same sort of happy as some people .
I understand your happiness. Me and my kids had a sing along together last night, was like the Brady bunch lol. Then we made up our own game using a scrabble set, we laughed lol.
Whats material unless you can eat it hey..
 
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danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But to the degree that we are attached to any of those things they will come in between us and God. There is just no way around that.
Actually in my opinion there is, for it is entirely possible to own things without being attached to them.

Baha’u’llah’s story of the dervish and the king illustrates this amply:
Baha'i Stories: The King and the Dervish

Kind regards :)
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
How important is personal happiness? What I am referring to is having material possessions, engaging in recreational activities that are fun, and engaging in activities that are physically pleasurable, oft referred to as the things of the flesh.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

I am sure there are many more verses like these but I do not have the time to look for them right now. Jesus certainly had the Spirit of God and the Truth from God.

One can look at this from a psychological, philosophical or a religious viewpoint. I used to look at it from a psychological viewpoint but now I look at it from a religious viewpoint.Consequently, I have done a complete 180 and the entire focus of my life has changed. I am a lot happier on a very deep spiritual level, but I look around me and everyone around me seems to be enjoying themselves in a materialistic sense, so I feel really left out. However, I cannot turn back the clock and go back to my old life when all I cared about was my personal happiness. I cannot consider that important anymore because I know it isn’t. I cannot justify such a life and I really don’t want one.

I am often feel like nobody understands how I feel, not even people who share my religion. Does anyone here understand how I feel?

My husband understands how I feel and he is on the same page although his focus is very different from mine. I tend to look at individuals in need and he looks at the crumbling of society. But neither one of us cares about material world enjoyments, except for the cats whom we both love more than anything.

So one might ask, why can’t I justify a life based upon personal happiness? Well, it is in the Writings of my religion and it is also in the Bible. Baha’u’llah wrote a lot about this subject. Here are a few passages:

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose….. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.” Gleanings, p. 337

“It behoveth thee to consecrate thyself to the Will of God. Whatsoever hath been revealed in His Tablets is but a reflection of His Will. So complete must be thy consecration, that every trace of worldly desire will be washed from thine heart. This is the meaning of true unity.”
Gleanings, p. 338

“Suffer not the habitation wherein dwellethMy undying love for thee to be destroyed through the tyranny of covetous desires, and overcloud not the beauty of the heavenly Youth with the dust of self and passion.”
Gleanings, p. 323

“The Most Great Name beareth Me witness! How sad if any man were, in this Day, to rest his heart on the transitory things of this world! Arise, and cling firmly to the Cause of God. Be most loving one to another. Burn away, wholly for the sake of the Well-Beloved, the veil of selfwith the flame of the undying Fire, and with faces joyous and beaming with light, associate with your neighbor.”
Gleanings, p. 316

This is a very high standard of behavior. Am I taking it too seriously, too literally? Am I being too austere? I just want to do right by God.

Of course, none of this is new. On this subject of living for self vs. living for God, Jesus said all the same things that Baha’u’llah later reiterated.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

But it seems to me as if purportedly religious people in American society generally just ignore these kinds of verses and keep doing what they are doing, living for the material world. The United States is submerged in a sea of materialism. It is thus no wonder I cannot find anyone who understands how I feel.

How can people call themselves followers of the One True God if all they think about are their own desires? I consider this hypocrisy. I am sure there are many devout Christians and other religious people who are not this way, but these are not the ones who I am surrounded by in my day to day life. I would certainly love to hear from some Christians or other religious people on this forum about how they live and what they consider important. That might help me counterbalance what I am normally exposed to.
Does hiking, bird watching, star-gazing, going to museums, libraries and observatories fall under materialistic recreational activities? If not could you identify what these materialistic recreational activities are?
 

Mox

Dr Green Fingers
Does hiking, bird watching, star-gazing, going to museums, libraries and observatories fall under materialistic recreational activities? If not could you identify what these materialistic recreational activities are?

Three of my favourite passtimes in that list.

Perhaps a good definition of materialistic recreational activities would be ''Frivolous activities that in particular, do not have obvious educational or spiritual benefit'' Although they might very well have psychological, sexual, health, and social benefits.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
But to the degree that we are attached to any of those things they will come in between us and God. There is just no way around that. All the major religions teach this.
That is the catch. "All the major religions", in this context, is defined in a very exotic way. The expression has become essentially meaningless, if not worse than meaningless.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Three of my favourite passtimes in that list.

Perhaps a good definition of materialistic recreational activities would be ''Frivolous activities that in particular, do not have obvious educational or spiritual benefit'' Although they might very well have psychological, sexual, health, and social benefits.
After college/school...most people work day and night at their jobs and looking after their kids. Many get less sleep than they ought to from all the pressure. Most people don't live in palaces either, even in US. So, I remain skeptical about this supposed overabundance of hedonism that everyone says is corrupting the world.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
The title of the thread is misleading; "Living for self vs. living for God".
I certainly don't live for god but I certainly don't live for myself. So, neither option applies, thus there are alternatives.
I live for my family, my friends, my community. I am a committee member of two local groups, I speak in schools, I examine for my learned society; I get no pay for any of those things and don't expect any.
This afternoon I am meeting my local MP to discuss improving the local rail system.

The thread implies living selfishly v living godly. I suspect the majority do neither.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
You have the right idea

You might add, living for some social /
environmental cause.
Well I don't have any of those. Besides not buying garbage I don't need, I just do my citizen's share for them, we have good recycling at every apartment that most locals know how to use.

Living for yourself is living for nothing.

But so is living for "god".
I guess, never tried living for either of those.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Well I don't have any of those. Besides not buying garbage I don't need, I just do my citizen's share for them, we have good recycling at every apartment that most locals know how to use.


I guess, never tried living for either of those.


The "living for yourself" thing I got form Mom.

If there is not god, then living for same is nonsense.
 
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