New creation...born again

Spiderman · Jun 27, 2018

I have experienced change and the power of faith and prayer, and seen it in others.

But I've lost faith that being born again or becoming a new creation, (as is promised by so many christians) is possible for myself and a lot of the people I meet regularly.

There are simply people that have faults that God is about as likely to remove as he is going to give an amputee a new limb.

It just doesn't seem to happen, so one starts to lose faith that it ever will.

I've found and maintain sobriety and obey the law. God seems to assist people with that, and you will hear many positive testimonies in that department.

But many of the faults, confusion, weaknesses, and human miseries persist.

It seems to be part of the cross we are called to carry daily. Sometimes, you just got to suffer on the cross and offer it up as a sacrifice and penance...

I used to think that there would eventually be an infilling of the Holy Spirit, where suddenly I had the mind of God or Christ, and the spirit of God inspires thoughts, words, and deeds, maybe even eventually heal, prophecy, speak for God, or work miracles...

...But have had a reality check in that department, and realized that isn't a realistic expectation or hope.

I try to remember what happened to Paul on the way to Damascus, the vision that blinded him and knocked him off his horse, the change, his total conversion and transformation, but how often does that happen to people?

Not even 1%...so, kinda pointless to be hoping for some grace that is so rarely granted...

Thoughts?

Earthling · Jun 27, 2018

You're learning.

74x12 · Jun 27, 2018

PopeADope said:
I have experienced change and the power of faith and prayer, and seen it in others.

But I've lost faith that being born again or becoming a new creation, (as is promised by so many christians) is possible for myself and a lot of the people I meet regularly.

There are simply people that have faults that God is about as likely to remove as he is going to give an amputee a new limb.

It just doesn't seem to happen, so one starts to lose faith that it ever will.

I've found and maintain sobriety and obey the law. God seems to assist people with that, and you will hear many positive testimonies in that department.

But many of the faults, confusion, weaknesses, and human miseries persist.

It seems to be part of the cross we are called to carry daily. Sometimes, you just got to suffer on the cross and offer it up as a sacrifice and penance...

I used to think that there would eventually be an infilling of the Holy Spirit, where suddenly I had the mind of God or Christ, and the spirit of God inspires thoughts, words, and deeds, maybe even eventually heal, prophecy, speak for God, or work miracles...

...But have had a reality check in that department, and realized that isn't a realistic expectation or hope.

I try to remember what happened to Paul on the way to Damascus, the vision that blinded him and knocked him off his horse, the change, his total conversion and transformation, but how often does that happen to people?

Not even 1%...so, kinda pointless to be hoping for some grace that is so rarely granted...

Thoughts?

I think you should keep hoping and praying for it. I've personally met many people who have changed their lives completely thanks to the holy Spirit.

InChrist · Jun 27, 2018

Being born again or a new creation happens when one repents and trusts their life to Jesus, fully trusting Him instead of self and continuing to do one's own thing, doubting or rebelling against God. I have not only seen you doubt God's ability repeatedly, but also mock God through so many things you have posted. I don't see that you have given up elevating yourself above God, nor that you have the peace that is in Christ. Why would you expect God to bless you in big ways when you won't even trust Him to start with or in small things of life?

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces a patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. James 1:2-8

You will keep him in perfect peace, Whose mind is stayed on You, Because he trusts in You. Isaiah 26:3

Spiderman · Jun 27, 2018

InChrist said:
Being born again or a new creation happens when one repents and trusts their life to Jesus, fully trusting Him instead of self and continuing to do one's own thing, doubting or rebelling against God. I have not only seen you doubt God's ability repeatedly, but also mock God through so many things you have posted. I don't see that you have given up elevating yourself above God, nor that you have the peace that is in Christ. Why would you expect God to bless you in big ways when you won't even trust Him to start with or in small things of life?

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces a patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. James 1:2-8

You will keep him in perfect peace, Whose mind is stayed on You, Because he trusts in You. Isaiah 26:3

God leaves most of the world in confusion, creates many clueless miserable people who harm others and make others miserable, then watches good innocent people get raped, tortured, injured, persecuted, and murdered, and creates a Devil that he lets influence people and lead them astray, and he makes many promises in scripture that he isnt faithful to, and at times it comes natural to resent God...

74x12 · Jun 27, 2018

PopeADope said:
God leaves most of the world in confusion, creates many clueless miserable people who harm others and make others miserable, then watches good innocent people get raped, tortured, injured, persecuted, and murdered, and creates a Devil that he lets influence people and lead them astray, and he makes many promises in scripture that he isnt faithful to, and it starts making sense to resent God...

God is on your side but we have to be careful what we say. If we say something of unbelief that is powerful in a bad way. If we speak faith that is empowering for good. Death and life are in the power of the tongue. This should help your prayers to God; if you start speaking faith and not unbelief.

lewisnotmiller · Jun 27, 2018

74x12 said:
I think you should keep hoping and praying for it. I've personally met many people who have changed their lives completely thanks to the holy Spirit.

Or thanks to the hard work they've put in, their faith bolstering their efforts.

I doubt very much that it was the easy path they walked.

shunyadragon · Jun 27, 2018

PopeADope said:
I have experienced change and the power of faith and prayer, and seen it in others.

But I've lost faith that being born again or becoming a new creation, (as is promised by so many christians) is possible for myself and a lot of the people I meet regularly.

There are simply people that have faults that God is about as likely to remove as he is going to give an amputee a new limb.

It just doesn't seem to happen, so one starts to lose faith that it ever will.

I've found and maintain sobriety and obey the law. God seems to assist people with that, and you will hear many positive testimonies in that department.

But many of the faults, confusion, weaknesses, and human miseries persist.

It seems to be part of the cross we are called to carry daily. Sometimes, you just got to suffer on the cross and offer it up as a sacrifice and penance...

I used to think that there would eventually be an infilling of the Holy Spirit, where suddenly I had the mind of God or Christ, and the spirit of God inspires thoughts, words, and deeds, maybe even eventually heal, prophecy, speak for God, or work miracles...

...But have had a reality check in that department, and realized that isn't a realistic expectation or hope.

I try to remember what happened to Paul on the way to Damascus, the vision that blinded him and knocked him off his horse, the change, his total conversion and transformation, but how often does that happen to people?

Not even 1%...so, kinda pointless to be hoping for some grace that is so rarely granted...

Thoughts?

Your faults and shortcomings have nothing to do with your relationship with God. it is your sincerity of belief that is the key. Your expectations particularly supposed promises will be your greatest obstacle.

InChrist · Jun 27, 2018

PopeADope said:
God leaves most of the world in confusion, creates many clueless miserable people who harm others and make others miserable, then watches good innocent people get raped, tortured, injured, persecuted, and murdered, and creates a Devil that he lets influence people and lead them astray, and he makes many promises in scripture that he isnt faithful to, and at times it comes natural to resent God...

You are right it comes natural to resent God when one is in rebellion against God. That is the reason why there are so many problem and miseries in the world. A person must desire to be set free from that attitude. God is faithful, but He does not force.

This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart...Eph. 4:17-18

74x12 · Jun 28, 2018

lewisnotmiller said:
Or thanks to the hard work they've put in, their faith bolstering their efforts.

I doubt very much that it was the easy path they walked.

It's never easy. But that doesn't mean you can write it all off as hard work and the placebo effect. I'll admit those help though. Yes just having faith helps you. You're less likely to be discouraged or lose heart. However there are those times when we know we couldn't do it without God and those times we know God came through for us. It's really undeniable for many of us who have received the holy Spirit. But hard to explain it to a skeptic.

sun rise · Jun 28, 2018

PopeADope said:
But I've lost faith that being born again or becoming a new creation,
...
But many of the faults, confusion, weaknesses, and human miseries persist.

A lesson that I've spent decades learning and have far to go is to have patience. This is a common condition in our culture and perhaps all over the world in these times. I've learned one lesson though - things that are easy are not valued. If I've struggled and struggled and finally achieve something, I really value the accomplishment and consider it a personal victory. That's not true for something easy.

PopeADope said:
It seems to be part of the cross we are called to carry daily. Sometimes, you just got to suffer on the cross and offer it up as a sacrifice and penance...

The balance to me is when I do my best to try to overcome something but leave the results to God. This too is a lesson I'm working on.

Mox · Jun 28, 2018

PopeADope said:
God leaves most of the world in confusion, creates many clueless miserable people who harm others and make others miserable, then watches good innocent people get raped, tortured, injured, persecuted, and murdered, and creates a Devil that he lets influence people and lead them astray, and he makes many promises in scripture that he isnt faithful to, and at times it comes natural to resent God...

Indeed, El or Yahweh of the Bible, or whatever you call him. Does not come across as a benevolent entity, at all. Quite malevolent in fact. I would personally sooner worship the Devil. He at least does not appear to be overly concerned with obtaining human affections, he has never made any threat of eternal torture. He seems far more stable and rational. Far more preferable than the genocidal narcissist that is the OT God.

whirlingmerc · Jun 28, 2018

PopeADope said:
I have experienced change and the power of faith and prayer, and seen it in others.

But I've lost faith that being born again or becoming a new creation, (as is promised by so many christians) is possible for myself and a lot of the people I meet regularly.

There are simply people that have faults that God is about as likely to remove as he is going to give an amputee a new limb.

It just doesn't seem to happen, so one starts to lose faith that it ever will.

I've found and maintain sobriety and obey the law. God seems to assist people with that, and you will hear many positive testimonies in that department.

But many of the faults, confusion, weaknesses, and human miseries persist.

It seems to be part of the cross we are called to carry daily. Sometimes, you just got to suffer on the cross and offer it up as a sacrifice and penance...

I used to think that there would eventually be an infilling of the Holy Spirit, where suddenly I had the mind of God or Christ, and the spirit of God inspires thoughts, words, and deeds, maybe even eventually heal, prophecy, speak for God, or work miracles...

...But have had a reality check in that department, and realized that isn't a realistic expectation or hope.

I try to remember what happened to Paul on the way to Damascus, the vision that blinded him and knocked him off his horse, the change, his total conversion and transformation, but how often does that happen to people?

Not even 1%...so, kinda pointless to be hoping for some grace that is so rarely granted...

Thoughts?

There is a new heart and new desires however the old body and nature is not yet resurrected and so those are in conflict through life. There is a God given struggle to lean on and depend on God in the struggle between new and old as Romans chapters 6 thru 7 would suggest

Jesus said not to put a bandaid on the problem but to make it new. New wine in new wine skins not a patch on an old wine bag

shunyadragon · Jun 28, 2018

PopeADope said:
God leaves most of the world in confusion, creates many clueless miserable people who harm others and make others miserable, then watches good innocent people get raped, tortured, injured, persecuted, and murdered, and creates a Devil that he lets influence people and lead them astray, and he makes many promises in scripture that he isnt faithful to, and at times it comes natural to resent God...

This a problem with that you believe in an ancient confusing contradictory belief system. The reality is IF God exists nothing of the above you posted is true. Looking at the greater picture from a more universal perspective God Created our existence as it is, which is clearly in conflict with the limited ancient world views.

To be born again is to shed the old and ancient for no reward, no compensation, no confirmation, nor self-justification for nothingness.

From a poem I wrote:

Will they ever learn?

Pick and choose the shoes that fit.
What pleases thee may not please me.
Worn paths of dust and ashes these shoes take.
The shoes of comfort are not the fit for thee nor me.

Will they ever learn?

From age to age,
the past can never be again
Again and again, calls to awaken,
bells peal and echo the past no change again.

Will they ever learn?

. . . that impermanence reigns.
Where shall we go?
What shall we fete?
Take off your hat and shoes
walk in the rain and get wet.

Frank A. Doonan

Sleeppy · Jun 28, 2018

These 'Christians' are encouraging self-righteousness.

Consider the implications of fatalism. These things will answer themselves.

shunyadragon · Jun 28, 2018

Sleeppy said:
These 'Christians' are encouraging self-righteousness.

This is the dominant belief in 'Dominion Theology in Christianity.'

Consider the implications of fatalism. These things will answer themselves.

. . . and the implication of how things must be in Christianity and its many divisions.

Spiderman · Jun 28, 2018

Sleeppy said:
These 'Christians' are encouraging self-righteousness.

Consider the implications of fatalism. These things will answer themselves.

Fatalism, the positive view of death, and the views of destiny and actions being determined in advance...really appeals to me these days

...

Thief · Jun 28, 2018

PopeADope said:
It seems to be part of the cross we are called to carry daily.

put that cross down for a moment.....

the burden you bear...
is that a mindset focused on your faults?......your sins?
or is that a mindset of achieving a greater person than you are?

Sleeppy · Jun 28, 2018

shunyadragon said:
This is the dominant belief in 'Dominion Theology in Christianity.'

. . . and the implication of how things must be in Christianity and its many divisions.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Thief · Jun 28, 2018

PopeADope said:
I try to remember what happened to Paul on the way to Damascus, the vision that blinded him and knocked him off his horse, the change, his total conversion and transformation, but how often does that happen to people?

it's called .....stroke

blinding light
unconsciousness
loss of sight (rarely regained)
change of personality

whole new outlook on life
and purpose

of course the name change is a MARK
he truly was not the same person he was before

New creation...born again

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