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Jehovah's Witnesses continuing persecution in Russia....

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
How can it be that small gatherings of people who simply want to study the Bible can be arrested and thrown in jail? In what way are Jehovah's Witnesses "extremists"? They simply disagree with the Russian Orthodox Church, who appear to be in a very cosy relationship with Russia's President.

Opinion | While we watch the World Cup, Russians are being jailed for reading the Bible
Freedom of conscience and freedom of religion is a human right that should be accorded to everyone. I can’t see any good reason why the JWs shouldn’t be allowed to practice their religion in Russia.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
How can it be that small gatherings of people who simply want to study the Bible can be arrested and thrown in jail? In what way are Jehovah's Witnesses "extremists"? They simply disagree with the Russian Orthodox Church, who appear to be in a very cosy relationship with Russia's President.

Opinion | While we watch the World Cup, Russians are being jailed for reading the Bible
We all should stick together against these kind of things. As you point out they're in bed with the Orthodox church.

Also I think that governments don't like conscious objectors ... JWs are conscious objectors. Anyway I support your right to practice religion and to be conscious objectors.

Persecutions against Christians are also going on in China, North Korea, almost every Muslim country etc.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Unfortunately Deeje. The fact that they disagree with the Russian orthodox church makes them extremists in the eyes of the Russian government.

Communist Russia was atheistic not too long ago....We were persecuted even back then, but look who is doing the persecuting now. o_O

It's a strange thing to me that something taught by Jesus Christ, the son of God who was by his Father's side in the creation of all things, can exist in churches that have specific locations. There should be nothing that identifies Christianity with a country......Christianity has no nationality. (Acts 10:34-35)

images
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Is this how Jesus taught us to worship God?

We are not supposed to be "friends with the world"...(James 4:4)

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The relationship looks pretty chummy to me.

Just as Jesus rubbed the Pharisees up the wrong way, so Jehovah's Witnesses expose these churches and their teachings for what they are. If we are "enemies" of the church, then Christ's admonition is to "love your enemies". That doesn't mean throwing them into prison on trumped up charges of extremism, just for reading the Bible. This is the church exercising its own influence over their government. That is exactly what the Pharisees did.....they used the Roman government to have Jesus silenced....Revelation 17:18 explains that the harlot. "Babylon the great", all decked out in great finery, has "a kingdom over the kings of the earth". This is an unholy union of church and state.

We are seeing prophesy fulfilled.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
There is every reason to construe JWs as a cult, due to the denial of the doctrine of gehenna, belief in the death of the soul at physical death, Jesus being no more and no less than a perfect human &etc and not the son of God that came from the Logos, although JWs do tend to equivocate on that one.

A penchant for misinterpreting dates and times connected to prophesy discloses a gnosis based approach as also the supremacy of the 144,000 over all others, which is Manichaen in conception. Denying personality to the spirit of God is absurd, and its attempts to dethrone the Logos equally so.

Refusal of blood transfusions make JW a positively odious force in political eyes. The Watch Tower Society has acknowledged that some members have died after refusing blood.

So whilst JWs are entitled as anyone else to deny the "Jesus is God" delusion as also the philosophical trinity, there are elements of corruption in doctrine that make the errors of the JWs unacceptable to many.

Moreover there are no grounds for supposing that every country should tolerate every cult. There is no human right to a deviant belief. "Discussing the bible" can mask a catalogue of heresy. May be the Russian experience is a good time for the Watchtower society to accept that not everyone finds their doctrines palatable. I myself believe that they are extremely harmful.
 

Mox

Dr Green Fingers
So whilst JWs are entitled as anyone else to deny the "Jesus is God" delusion....

Not that we require your permission.

There is no human right to a deviant belief. "Discussing the bible" can mask a catalogue of heresy. May be the Russian experience is a good time for the Watchtower society to accept that not everyone finds their doctrines palatable. I myself believe that they are extremely harmful.

Your protestant christian religion is certainly just as deviant as any other man made religion, in my eyes and those of others who likewise consider all religions to be essentially, fiction.

The Russian Orthdox church does not only persecute JWs, it persecutes homosexuals and transgender Russian citizens with monstrous zeal.

If you support this kind of persecution, and clearly you do, then we have little in common and I hope our paths seldom cross here.

I find your philosophy extremely harmful and anti human.

I strongly believe in the freedom of thought and conscience as well as in the value of freedom of religious expression. Despite my intellectual and philosophical opposition to all human religions.

Do not deny to others what is enjoyed by yourself.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Communist Russia was atheistic not too long ago....We were persecuted even back then, but look who is doing the persecuting now. o_O
They've always been keen on keeping up state beliefs no matter who was the ruler. JWs, Hindus, various branches of non-Sunni Islam, pagans, etc are persecuted.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Not that we require your permission.
You certainly require God's permission to critique other believers in him, lest it be condemned as hypocrisy (Roms 14).


Your protestant christian religion is certainly just as deviant as any other man made religion, in my eyes and those of others who likewise consider all religions to be essentially, fiction.

The Russian Orthdox church does not only persecute JWs, it persecutes homosexuals and transgender Russian citizens with monstrous zeal.
You've already shown that you have a religion by making it clear that sexual immorality is condonable, which is a form of religion (humanism - elevation of the status of man to "god"). That is clearly not "religious fiction" in your eyes. So what you are really doing is ascribing "religious truth" to yourself, and "religious fiction" to others.

If you support this kind of persecution, and clearly you do, then we have little in common and I hope our paths seldom cross here.
I don't support persecution. I would however support outlawing any sect that prohibits blood transfusions.

I find your philosophy extremely harmful and anti human.
There are plenty of dead JWs who would be alive now if they were not JWs.

To refuse blood transfusions as a condition of belief in God would be in most people's eyes "extremely harmful and anti human". So I would ascribe you as a hypocrite.

I strongly believe in the freedom of thought and conscience as well as in the value of freedom of religious expression. Despite my intellectual and philosophical opposition to all human religions.

Do not deny to others what is enjoyed by yourself.
So you would support any cult, however harmful. I suggest that your cynicism towards religion is in fact extremely harmful. The freedom to believe in anything at all was never to my recollection any part of morality, even if the American constitution allows it. Most of the worlds dangerous cults originated in America, and to my mind, other countries are entitled to protect themselves from what comes out of America.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Do they do the same as the JW's here, and reject all forms of national government? That could be seen as an issue.
JWs were part of the few protected religions in Russia that included Sunni, Orthodox, Buddhist and JW. I think there was two or three more. They've now lost protection and are seen the same as pagans. It's expected that they will receive same status like with what happened with Bhagavad-Gita translator deemed "extremist".
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
27 jun 2018 stvdv 013 37
There is every reason to construe JWs as a cult....Moreover there are no grounds for supposing that every country should tolerate every cult. May be the Russian experience is a good time for the Watchtower society to accept that not everyone finds their doctrines palatable. I myself believe that they are extremely harmful.

You are very honest here. I was just thinking "how to put it in a palatable way". I agree Watchtower could do some introspection.

I am all for peace and not harming others. Far away from imposing stuff on others. I Make many mistakes, but don't proselytize.
But as long as JW claim they should be free to proselytize [=imposing] I can not support them here. My Guru is very clear on this point. I do not want my devotees to evangelize because all religions are God given and leading to the goal. Makes fully sense in this context. Even I don't criticize you proselytize, you can do so if you like. Of course I don't like it, but I only show you the consequences.

To be clear "you are totally free to believe whatever you want". Only 1 point I make, do not impose on others
You see what it brings you. Now they impose on you. You don't like that, so start not doing it yourself.
Except for their proselytizing [against Russian Law] I am okay with JW and admire JW to be strict followers of what they believe to be true

My personal opinion on this subject:
1: No one is above the Law, also not JW. They just should accept the Law in Russia.
2: My Guru always said "I ask you to follow the Law of the country you are in". Putin is clear, no proselytizing anymore.
3: Dharma protects those who protect Dharma according to Hindu Scripures [JW makes mistake here]
4: In a way JW are also authoritarians, claiming only they know how to interpret the Bible best.
5: My first lesson God personally showed me in a vision was "stay away from exhibitionism"

The Jehovah’s Witnesses are not extremists. They refuse subservience to the state; they refuse military service, do not vote and view God as the only true leader. Now, as in Soviet times, they are victims of Mr. Putin’s authoritarianism.
[r/exjw - 'A cry of desperation' in Russia - The Washington Post Newspaper (US)]
 
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Mox

Dr Green Fingers
I support the freedom of religious expression so long as no human rights of others are disaffected.

In case of any confusion. :)
 
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Mox

Dr Green Fingers
You've already shown that you have a religion by making it clear that sexual immorality is condonable, which is a form of religion (humanism - elevation of the status of man to "god"). That is clearly not "religious fiction" in your eyes. So what you are really doing is ascribing "religious truth" to yourself, and "religious fiction" to others.

Indeed, I believe all of your religions are essentially untrue and that my own subjective interpretation is the most reliable.

I do not condone sexual immorality, whatever that is, your definition of sexual immorality is simply a subjective product of your culture and religious indoctrination, I know in a free democracy sexual morality cannot be rigidly imposed by religious dogma and a small clique of men in dresses.

So if you would persecute homosexuals as well, because you feel threatened by their sexuality, then know that we are here to oppose you.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
We all should stick together against these kind of things. As you point out they're in bed with the Orthodox church.

Also I think that governments don't like conscious objectors ... JWs are conscious objectors. Anyway I support your right to practice religion and to be conscious objectors.

Persecutions against Christians are also going on in China, North Korea, almost every Muslim country etc.

Maybe Chinese are not happy with cultural imperialism,
such as promoted / forced by the West.

Who needs "Lo here" and, "Lo there" in a thousand
directions?

Look how the USA is split.

Another lil detail is, a nation that honours Confucian
ideals like valuing education is not the place for
people to come in and promote anti intellectualism,
require its members to shun education and embrace
superstition.

Such churches are a disgrace to Christianity and
an insult to the intelligence of the human race.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
There is every reason to construe JWs as a cult, due to the denial of the doctrine of gehenna, belief in the death of the soul at physical death, Jesus being no more and no less than a perfect human &etc and not the son of God that came from the Logos, although JWs do tend to equivocate on that one.

A penchant for misinterpreting dates and times connected to prophesy discloses a gnosis based approach as also the supremacy of the 144,000 over all others, which is Manichaen in conception. Denying personality to the spirit of God is absurd, and its attempts to dethrone the Logos equally so.

Refusal of blood transfusions make JW a positively odious force in political eyes. The Watch Tower Society has acknowledged that some members have died after refusing blood.

So whilst JWs are entitled as anyone else to deny the "Jesus is God" delusion as also the philosophical trinity, there are elements of corruption in doctrine that make the errors of the JWs unacceptable to many.

Moreover there are no grounds for supposing that every country should tolerate every cult. There is no human right to a deviant belief. "Discussing the bible" can mask a catalogue of heresy. May be the Russian experience is a good time for the Watchtower society to accept that not everyone finds their doctrines palatable. I myself believe that they are extremely harmful.


Which religion is not a cult?
 
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