Christianity not scriptural?

Rehan · Jun 26, 2018

So I've heard the claim, and happen to agree with it, that Christianity is not scriptural in the same sense Judaism and Islam is.

Moses is important because he is in the Torah, Mohammed is important because of the Quran. But in Christianity it is the reverse. It is not that Jesus is important because of the New Testament or the gospels, the writings are important because they are about Jesus and believed to represent his teaching. Gospel, or evangelion, means "good news" and what is meant is Jesus himself.

In Christianity it is also said that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, granted Logos means much more than only "Word". But I think all, or most, Christians would agree that Jesus is the most important person ever to have lived, even if we had no New testament at all.

All that said, sacred scripture is of course important to Christians. Many Protestants view it as the only reliable source of information about God and Jesus Christ.

So anyway, do people here think Christianity is less "scriptural" in this sense than Judaism or Islam? What is the self-understanding of Christians here? Would you who are Christians say you read the Bible because of Jesus, or that you seek Jesus because of the Bible?

Also, I would've mentioned Baha'i before as well, but I feel I don't know enough about the religion. But any belonging to the faith should feel free to comment. Finally, if any Jews or Muslims find I misrepresented their faith, please correct me

I hope at least some of this made sense

metis · Jun 26, 2018

What's very interesting, imo, is that the earliest liturgy of the Church had little about Jesus but a lot about God. Much more recent forms of that basically same liturgy have more references to Jesus.

My point is that early Christianity was still very much God-centered and was very "Jewish", but done so through Jesus' perspective on how he felt Judaism should be reformed.

Ellen Brown · Jun 26, 2018

Rehan said:
So I've heard the claim, and happen to agree with it, that Christianity is not scriptural in the same sense Judaism and Islam is.

Moses is important because he is in the Torah, Mohammed is important because of the Quran. But in Christianity it is the reverse. It is not that Jesus is important because of the New Testament or the gospels, the writings are important because they are about Jesus and believed to represent his teaching. Gospel, or evangelion, means "good news" and what is meant is Jesus himself.

In Christianity it is also said that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, granted Logos means much more than only "Word". But I think all, or most, Christians would agree that Jesus is the most important person ever to have lived, even if we had no New testament at all.

All that said, sacred scripture is of course important to Christians. Many Protestants view it as the only reliable source of information about God and Jesus Christ.

So anyway, do people here think Christianity is less "scriptural" in this sense than Judaism or Islam? What is the self-understanding of Christians here? Would you who are Christians say you read the Bible because of Jesus, or that you seek Jesus because of the Bible?

Also, I would've mentioned Baha'i before as well, but I feel I don't know enough about the religion. But any belonging to the faith should feel free to comment. Finally, if any Jews or Muslims find I misrepresented their faith, please correct me

I hope at least some of this made sense

Being in NW America, in what is called the most unchurched area, I find the state of Christianity to be quite worrisome. Sometimes I thing that the God of my area is the great outdoors, where people engage in all sorts of fun outdoor activities, and at times I am as hedonistic as they. Largely, people in this area are kind and mild, but to bring up religion brings snickers. And rather than Christianity, lots of people have engaged Buddhism or Bahia. (SP?)

Rehan · Jun 26, 2018

metis said:
What's very interesting, imo, is that the earliest liturgy of the Church had little about Jesus but a lot about God. Much more recent forms of that basically same liturgy have more references to Jesus.

My point is that early Christianity was still very much God-centered and was very "Jewish", but done so through Jesus' perspective on how he felt Judaism should be reformed.

Is there a certain text or recorded ancient liturgy you're thinking of? As far as I know the focus on Christ is very old. As an example, Pliny the younger wrote this about Christians 112 AD: they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god.

outlawState · Jun 26, 2018

Christianity is hyper-scriptural, in that it seeks to understand scripture according to the revelation of scripture that Christ himself had, which was very extensive (it does not always succeed by the sub-standard profession of many self-confessing Christians).

In Luke 24:13–35 (road to Emmasus) and indeed throughout all Jesus' ministry it is clear that the disciples except Judas were convinced that Jesus held the key to the interpretation of scripture, as no other man.

He accompanied his interpretation with signs and wonders. He not only interpreted scripture but fulfilled it.

Christians do not consider that non-believing Jews or Muslims are in any way enlightened as to scripture, although to the Jews at least a scientific merit can be accorded to the exegesis ofsome of their commentators. As in the days of the Pharisees, the Jews get lost in the trees. They cannot see the whole wood, the point of it all, the scheme of salvation that God had for the whole earth. It is in this "world view" of scripture that Christians are infinitety more accomplished than Jews or muslims, or even Catholics, who consider that the Christian world should be ruled from Rome.

shunyadragon · Jun 26, 2018

Rehan said:
So I've heard the claim, and happen to agree with it, that Christianity is not scriptural in the same sense Judaism and Islam is.

Moses is important because he is in the Torah, Mohammed is important because of the Quran. But in Christianity it is the reverse. It is not that Jesus is important because of the New Testament or the gospels, the writings are important because they are about Jesus and believed to represent his teaching. Gospel, or evangelion, means "good news" and what is meant is Jesus himself.

In Christianity it is also said that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, granted Logos means much more than only "Word". But I think all, or most, Christians would agree that Jesus is the most important person ever to have lived, even if we had no New testament at all.

All that said, sacred scripture is of course important to Christians. Many Protestants view it as the only reliable source of information about God and Jesus Christ.

So anyway, do people here think Christianity is less "scriptural" in this sense than Judaism or Islam? What is the self-understanding of Christians here? Would you who are Christians say you read the Bible because of Jesus, or that you seek Jesus because of the Bible?

Also, I would've mentioned Baha'i before as well, but I feel I don't know enough about the religion. But any belonging to the faith should feel free to comment. Finally, if any Jews or Muslims find I misrepresented their faith, please correct me

I hope at least some of this made sense

Actually I consider Christianity scriptural in the context of the NT scripture in the first millennium, even though I am a Baha'i. The difference is I consider religions in the context of their time, culture, place in history, and fallible view of humans concerning God and God's Revelation. To some degree all scripture is the human view, and not as absolute as many believers believe. I, as a Baha'i believe religion spiritually evolves throughout the history of humanity and what was scriptural at one time in history is not always always scripture relevant throughout to all times in the history of humanity. It is obvious that the religion of the Pentateuch is not the same relevant religion as Christianity in the NT, and religion evolved as human matured spiritually.

Jayhawker Soule · Jun 26, 2018

metis said:
What's very interesting, imo, is that the earliest liturgy of the Church had little about Jesus but a lot about God. Much more recent forms of that basically same liturgy have more references to Jesus.

My point is that early Christianity was still very much God-centered and was very "Jewish", but done so through Jesus' perspective on how he felt Judaism should be reformed.

Is that your reading of the epistles and synoptics?

Dawnofhope · Jun 26, 2018

Rehan said:
So I've heard the claim, and happen to agree with it, that Christianity is not scriptural in the same sense Judaism and Islam is.

Moses is important because he is in the Torah, Mohammed is important because of the Quran. But in Christianity it is the reverse. It is not that Jesus is important because of the New Testament or the gospels, the writings are important because they are about Jesus and believed to represent his teaching. Gospel, or evangelion, means "good news" and what is meant is Jesus himself.

In Christianity it is also said that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, granted Logos means much more than only "Word". But I think all, or most, Christians would agree that Jesus is the most important person ever to have lived, even if we had no New testament at all.

All that said, sacred scripture is of course important to Christians. Many Protestants view it as the only reliable source of information about God and Jesus Christ.

So anyway, do people here think Christianity is less "scriptural" in this sense than Judaism or Islam? What is the self-understanding of Christians here? Would you who are Christians say you read the Bible because of Jesus, or that you seek Jesus because of the Bible?

Also, I would've mentioned Baha'i before as well, but I feel I don't know enough about the religion. But any belonging to the faith should feel free to comment. Finally, if any Jews or Muslims find I misrepresented their faith, please correct me

I hope at least some of this made sense

I see Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baha’i as being scriptural and people of the book. According to their respective followers each is founded on a Revelation from God through their revered Teacher. The Life and Teachings of Moses are reflected in the Torah, Christ with the Gospels, Muhammad in the Quran, and Baha’u’llah through His Writings. Each faith community reveres their Founder, their Teachings, and their sacred texts.

metis · Jun 27, 2018

Rehan said:
Is there a certain text or recorded ancient liturgy you're thinking of? As far as I know the focus on Christ is very old. As an example, Pliny the younger wrote this about Christians 112 AD: they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god.

Jesus was considered as being more than just a prophet and "the Messiah" but he was not God, nor had the Trinitarian concept reached any kind of fruition of agreement as that was a long way off. The idea of praying to a person is repulsive in Jewish circles and the pre-70's Church was more Jewish than Gentile.

When we get to the 2nd century, there still is a reluctance, or so it appears, to focus so much on Jesus in terms of being prayed to. It seems, based on the words of these early liturgical prayers, that the Church more prayed through Jesus, much like praying through the dead had long been a practice even before the birth of Jesus.

The idea of Jesus being God, not only was not a gimme but also was subject to interpretation and opinion in the 2nd through 5th centuries, and there are scriptural reasons for this as well. But what is much clearer is that the belief was that Jesus was of God, thus eventually leading to "the Mystery of the Trinity" concept, which is and was intentionally vague as to exactly how that relationship is.

metis · Jun 27, 2018

Jayhawker Soule said:
Is that your reading of the epistles and synoptics?

Well, I was focusing in on the liturgical prayers, which were formulated much later than either. Secondly, in doing as such, I'm focusing on the Church when it had become almost exclusively Gentile, and we are aware that there was an evolution in that process.

I tend to think that Jesus saw himself as a Jewish man bent on reforming things that bothered him, but after being martyred he basically becomes "elevated" in the eyes of many, which is very noticeable in writings attributed to Paul plus later writings.

Ellen Brown · Jun 27, 2018

I don't claim to be a religious expert of any sort. I have studied "a lot". It is most fascinating to review how Jews, Muslims and Christians see a certain subject. And it is somewhat humorous to see for example how an accomplished expert on Christianity, can read a 100 page booklet and then claim to be expert on Islam. Don't worry, Muslims do the same thing with Christianity or Judaism. One Jew offered the best explanation I have seen of who Jesus Christ is. He said,"I'll wait for him to tell me when he comes."

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? This is a lot like Jesus' "Two Commandments" isn't it?

My suspicion is that a walk that is pleasing to our Creator is very simple. Sadly, I think that people of questionable repute want it complicated.

Christianity not scriptural?

Rehan

Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member

Rehan

Member

outlawState

Deism is dead

shunyadragon

shunyadragon

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member