The Pro-Life Conspiracy

David1967 said:

Interesting SS. You did your homework and have an informed opinion. That being said, I would like to see contraception to the point abortion becomes a thing of the past.
Respectfully of course.

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PopeADope said:

I went to through a pro-life phase where I thought the millions and millions of babies slain legally by abortion was the greatest abomination against God...then I saw repeated examples of lives that are chronic agony, and people who are a thorn in everyone's side, and realized abortion is the best thing for countless people... seriously, there are so many countless millions of miserable, tortured souls, or sick people who harm others, it is obvious that their mother would have done a great deed to have them put out of their misery in the womb... I feel like a bad Catholic for saying that, but it just seems to be common sense at work.

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David1967 said:

Interesting SS. You did your homework and have an informed opinion. That being said, I would like to see contraception to the point abortion becomes a thing of the past.
Respectfully of course.

Click to expand...

PopeADope said:

I went to through a pro-life phase where I thought the millions and millions of babies slain legally by abortion was the greatest abomination against God...then I saw repeated examples of lives that are chronic agony, and people who are a thorn in everyone's side, and realized abortion is the best thing for countless people... seriously, there are so many countless millions of miserable, tortured souls, or sick people who harm others, it is obvious that their mother would have done a great deed to have them put out of their misery in the womb... I feel like a bad Catholic for saying that, but it just seems to be common sense at work.

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Cacotopia said:

What does that mean exactly, it's no longer a talking point and people just respect other people's personal decisions? Or people are forced to carry to term? Not everyone is responsible, maybe they had all the kids they wanted to have but couldn't afford to sterilize themselves, perhaps they never wanted kids, but wanted the option still on the table if they had a change of heart. Mistakes do happen. An affordable option should be available to everyone. If you are pro life have kids have as many as you want, but don't force people to live by your own ideals and not entertain others. Especially in a "free" society. When you make certain actions compulsory, well it's not exactly free anymore is it?

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Sunstone said:

Ideally, that would be best, I think. Contraception is in my book the signal best solution to the abortion problem if and when it's combined with easy availability and universal education.

Oddly enough, some folks are opposed to contraception itself. I mean, some Protestants. There are a few groups who have declared that they intend to have all contraceptives outlawed. As you might expect, those folks belong to the same kind of religion you yourself rejected years ago.

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David1967 said:

Where in my post did I say anything about forcing anyone to do anything? You'd have to do some seriously creative reading between the lines to come up with that. It was an "in a perfect world" kind of statement, not a challenge.

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Cacotopia said:

Hence the question in the beginning of the statement. To which you still have not addressed it.

You said no longer an issue, in your terms where is it resolved. it can only be either an option to consider without societal backlash, or forced to carry to term, which side of the fence would it be concluded on?

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Cacotopia said:

Or sitting too high on his lofty horse to deign to answer to someone else?

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Cacotopia said:

Hence the question in the beginning of the statement. To which you still have not addressed it.

You said no longer an issue, in your terms where is it resolved. it can only be either an option to consider without societal backlash, or forced to carry to term, which side of the fence would it be concluded on?

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Cacotopia said:

Or sitting too high on his lofty horse to deign to answer to someone else?

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Sunstone said:

"I am not a conspiracy nut. But in this case no other word than conspiracy will do. We did what we did covertly, telling supporters one thing, and telling leaders on the inside of the political establishment another thing.

"There was one agenda in public, another one behind closed doors. And we changed America for the worse." -- Frank Schaeffer​

Most of us today no longer remember back when abortion was opposed, mostly, only by Catholics. Indeed, there was a time when it was condoned even by some of the most religiously conservative denominations in America. For instance:

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: ‘If a man kills any human life he will be put to death’ (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.” [Source]​

Southern Baptists were on record supporting abortion rights as late as 1976, and they did not officially reverse themselves until the 1980s. [Source]

So what caused the reversal? Why did abortion become the huge issue it is today for so many religious folks?

By most accounts, the one person who had the most to do with the reversal was Francis Schaeffer. He was Frank Schaeffer's father. Francis was also the Protestant theologian most responsible -- not only for creating the notion that abortion violated biblical teachings -- but for propagating it. He, along with other people, did everything they could to make sure it became a popular issue.

Francis' son, Frank, was heavily and intimately involved in his father's efforts. And, according to Frank, those efforts crucially involved conspiring with Republican leaders to turn abortion into a means of creating a reliable, Republican-voting block out of America's Evangelicals and other fundamentalists.

The deal was this: The Republicans would get the Evangelicals, etc delivered to them by the religious leaders in exchange for the religious leaders getting power and wealth.

So, in a vital way, the abortion issue boils down to the ancient story of political elites and religious elites finding reasons to be in cahoots with each other. That story has been a constantly recurring theme in human history since the first civilizations were founded 5,500 years ago.

Beyond that, I wonder how many of us are genuinely surprised by this? I know some of us will dismiss it and the evidence for it, but that's only human nature. I'm not all that interested in them. But I am interested in knowing if anyone has been genuinely surprised to hear that the anti-abortion movement had its origins more in politics, than in unquestioned biblical principles?


_______________________________
A Little Further Reading:

The Actual "Pro-Life" Conspiracy That Handed America to the Tea Party & Far Religious Right (An Insider's Perspective)

The Not so Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement

Click to expand...

Sunstone said:

"I am not a conspiracy nut. But in this case no other word than conspiracy will do. We did what we did covertly, telling supporters one thing, and telling leaders on the inside of the political establishment another thing.

"There was one agenda in public, another one behind closed doors. And we changed America for the worse." -- Frank Schaeffer​

Most of us today no longer remember back when abortion was opposed, mostly, only by Catholics. Indeed, there was a time when it was condoned even by some of the most religiously conservative denominations in America. For instance:

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: ‘If a man kills any human life he will be put to death’ (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.” [Source]​

Southern Baptists were on record supporting abortion rights as late as 1976, and they did not officially reverse themselves until the 1980s. [Source]

So what caused the reversal? Why did abortion become the huge issue it is today for so many religious folks?

By most accounts, the one person who had the most to do with the reversal was Francis Schaeffer. He was Frank Schaeffer's father. Francis was also the Protestant theologian most responsible -- not only for creating the notion that abortion violated biblical teachings -- but for propagating it. He, along with other people, did everything they could to make sure it became a popular issue.

Francis' son, Frank, was heavily and intimately involved in his father's efforts. And, according to Frank, those efforts crucially involved conspiring with Republican leaders to turn abortion into a means of creating a reliable, Republican-voting block out of America's Evangelicals and other fundamentalists.

The deal was this: The Republicans would get the Evangelicals, etc delivered to them by the religious leaders in exchange for the religious leaders getting power and wealth.

So, in a vital way, the abortion issue boils down to the ancient story of political elites and religious elites finding reasons to be in cahoots with each other. That story has been a constantly recurring theme in human history since the first civilizations were founded 5,500 years ago.

Beyond that, I wonder how many of us are genuinely surprised by this? I know some of us will dismiss it and the evidence for it, but that's only human nature. I'm not all that interested in them. But I am interested in knowing if anyone has been genuinely surprised to hear that the anti-abortion movement had its origins more in politics, than in unquestioned biblical principles?


_______________________________
A Little Further Reading:

The Actual "Pro-Life" Conspiracy That Handed America to the Tea Party & Far Religious Right (An Insider's Perspective)

The Not so Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement

Click to expand...

Sunstone said:

"I am not a conspiracy nut. But in this case no other word than conspiracy will do. We did what we did covertly, telling supporters one thing, and telling leaders on the inside of the political establishment another thing.

"There was one agenda in public, another one behind closed doors. And we changed America for the worse." -- Frank Schaeffer​

Most of us today no longer remember back when abortion was opposed, mostly, only by Catholics. Indeed, there was a time when it was condoned even by some of the most religiously conservative denominations in America. For instance:

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: ‘If a man kills any human life he will be put to death’ (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.” [Source]​

Southern Baptists were on record supporting abortion rights as late as 1976, and they did not officially reverse themselves until the 1980s. [Source]

So what caused the reversal? Why did abortion become the huge issue it is today for so many religious folks?

By most accounts, the one person who had the most to do with the reversal was Francis Schaeffer. He was Frank Schaeffer's father. Francis was also the Protestant theologian most responsible -- not only for creating the notion that abortion violated biblical teachings -- but for propagating it. He, along with other people, did everything they could to make sure it became a popular issue.

Francis' son, Frank, was heavily and intimately involved in his father's efforts. And, according to Frank, those efforts crucially involved conspiring with Republican leaders to turn abortion into a means of creating a reliable, Republican-voting block out of America's Evangelicals and other fundamentalists.

The deal was this: The Republicans would get the Evangelicals, etc delivered to them by the religious leaders in exchange for the religious leaders getting power and wealth.

So, in a vital way, the abortion issue boils down to the ancient story of political elites and religious elites finding reasons to be in cahoots with each other. That story has been a constantly recurring theme in human history since the first civilizations were founded 5,500 years ago.

Beyond that, I wonder how many of us are genuinely surprised by this? I know some of us will dismiss it and the evidence for it, but that's only human nature. I'm not all that interested in them. But I am interested in knowing if anyone has been genuinely surprised to hear that the anti-abortion movement had its origins more in politics, than in unquestioned biblical principles?


_______________________________
A Little Further Reading:

The Actual "Pro-Life" Conspiracy That Handed America to the Tea Party & Far Religious Right (An Insider's Perspective)

The Not so Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement

Click to expand...

Sunstone said:

"I am not a conspiracy nut. But in this case no other word than conspiracy will do. We did what we did covertly, telling supporters one thing, and telling leaders on the inside of the political establishment another thing.

"There was one agenda in public, another one behind closed doors. And we changed America for the worse." -- Frank Schaeffer​

Most of us today no longer remember back when abortion was opposed, mostly, only by Catholics. Indeed, there was a time when it was condoned even by some of the most religiously conservative denominations in America. For instance:

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: ‘If a man kills any human life he will be put to death’ (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.” [Source]​

Southern Baptists were on record supporting abortion rights as late as 1976, and they did not officially reverse themselves until the 1980s. [Source]

So what caused the reversal? Why did abortion become the huge issue it is today for so many religious folks?

By most accounts, the one person who had the most to do with the reversal was Francis Schaeffer. He was Frank Schaeffer's father. Francis was also the Protestant theologian most responsible -- not only for creating the notion that abortion violated biblical teachings -- but for propagating it. He, along with other people, did everything they could to make sure it became a popular issue.

Francis' son, Frank, was heavily and intimately involved in his father's efforts. And, according to Frank, those efforts crucially involved conspiring with Republican leaders to turn abortion into a means of creating a reliable, Republican-voting block out of America's Evangelicals and other fundamentalists.

The deal was this: The Republicans would get the Evangelicals, etc delivered to them by the religious leaders in exchange for the religious leaders getting power and wealth.

So, in a vital way, the abortion issue boils down to the ancient story of political elites and religious elites finding reasons to be in cahoots with each other. That story has been a constantly recurring theme in human history since the first civilizations were founded 5,500 years ago.

Beyond that, I wonder how many of us are genuinely surprised by this? I know some of us will dismiss it and the evidence for it, but that's only human nature. I'm not all that interested in them. But I am interested in knowing if anyone has been genuinely surprised to hear that the anti-abortion movement had its origins more in politics, than in unquestioned biblical principles?

It is obvious that religious institution has sought common cause and support with what ever political construct exists, anywhere. One might see this more clearly in the example of European monarchy, where a symbiotic relationship of supporting each others credibility and claims has always existed. There could never have been any divine right of kings without the 'church' standing like a crux, in support. The point is this: How can any 'religious' moral teaching, having no intrinsic moral authority of its own and depending upon a conspiracy of enforcement with political establishment, have anything to do with God?

_______________________________
A Little Further Reading:

The Actual "Pro-Life" Conspiracy That Handed America to the Tea Party & Far Religious Right (An Insider's Perspective)

The Not so Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement

Click to expand...