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Religious Truth And The Jehovah's Witnesses

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
OK, let me tackle these things here, acknowledging that conversations on Internet forums can rely only on what is said without a lot of details. I responded to what you said and how I understood what you said.

My response is quite long so I'll break it up....

What choice do I have? Would I want to be baptized or associate myself with 99% of Christians who teach false doctrine? Myth and fables? Would I be baptized by someone who I think are false prophets?

Well, who would expect you to? You see, we have many people like yourself who come and go. It's not at all unusual for people to find fault and shatter whatever bubble they think being a Christian means to them. Half the battle is learning to do what God does with us all the time.....putting up with human shortcomings. It's part of what God said he has to do.....to "remember we are dust". Do we do that with each other though?

Having human issues did not make God abandon Israel, even when they turned to Baal worship and sacrificed their own children to a false god. He clung to Israel, warts and all, until his purpose in connection with them was done. His main intention for now is accomplishing his purpose in ushering in the only form of rulership that will benefit all mankind. (Daniel 2:44) He has always worked organizationally because he is an organized God. Today he is using what we believe is the only global brotherhood that is taking the kingdom message to every nation on earth. It is what Jesus said he would support and he has been doing that for the last 100 years. Christendom hasn't got a clue what the kingdom is, let alone what it will do for humanity and this earth. (Matthew 24:14)

The Bible, with the help of the Watchtower Library. I explained that I thought that the JWs were the closest to the truth, but that they were false prophets.

Making mistakes about the timing of the coming kingdom is nothing new. The apostles thought it was going to be set up in the first century. (Acts1:6) it's not a false prophesy...it is the same prophesy, not yet fulfilled. But did we get all bent out of shape when our hopes were not realized....some did, but it just demonstrated where their heart was....they saw the end as something to benefit themselves, not for the real purpose of vindicating Jehovah's Universal Sovereignty. Every now and then, God weeded out those whose motives were selfish. Jesus said that satan had demanded to "sift" his disciples like wheat. The faithful continued to preach, confident that the end will come in Jehovah's own time. Those who were sifted out became isolated and bitter, blaming everyone but themselves.

The Watchtower is run by a group of old men in New York called the Governing Body. Their primary concern is not Jehovah's will, it's keeping numbers up.

Since the global preaching, (of the sort taught by Jesus) needed organization, he has to use what he has, (imperfect though it is) and for the last 100 years he has used one organization who have done what he asked. (Matthew 28:19-20) When Jesus said that the "food" was to be dispensed "at the proper time" through this one agency, Jehovah had his reasons for not dispensing that food all at once. We got what we needed, when we needed it. The faithful are still preaching....where are those who abandoned ship? Have they called at your door lately? When you burn your bridges, you leave yourself with nowhere to go.

It seems to me as if you demand more of Jehovah's people than he does. If you are waiting for us to become perfect, we might have that accomplished in about 1,000 years.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Quite often throughout their history they have made decisions that greatly impact peoples lives. People have spent years in prison, died in need of organ transplants. lost everything they own, including their families and friends, only to have the Governing Body change it's position and then blame the ones who were foolish enough to listen to them.

People are still spending time in prison for their faith....so did the apostles.

Those who declined organ transplants in that early period when it was very experimental may have been spared unnecessary suffering when things went horribly wrong, as they often did. Have you heard of graft verses host disease? Do you know what happened with organ rejection? There was so much more to learn to make those things safer.

And as for people losing everything? What a load of old cods! There was never any recommendation from the GB to sell everything and wait for the end. I was around in 1975 and I can assure you you that it was offered as a hope, (wouldn't it be nice) not as a prophesy. When 1975 came and went, the faithful carried on doing what Jesus commanded. Where did the unfaithful go? They got all bent out of shape.....angry.....disillusioned....lost....and they still are. They lost their joy and if they blamed the brothers instead of themselves, they never got it back.

If there is a change in thought, the GB let's us know why and we carry on. What Jesus began, cannot be stopped. Whiners are gonna whine and blame everyone else for their problems. The one sided sob stories are a dime a dozen.

But, there is also a team of writers and researchers who have a sincere interest, if only somewhat misguided due to a loyalty to a organization of men, who have accumulated over the years a great deal of accurate information on the Bible. As long as the stuff the writing team is dealing with doesn't involve the organization it's good. When they start reading themselves into prophecy it's like they go nuts. That's where the research stops and the influence of the Governing Body starts.

The writing team are still part of Jehovah's organisation. Not a thing gets published without the approval of the governing body. There is no one person who gets a say in any of that because, just as Jesus' disciples were also directed by the original governing body in Jerusalem, the holy spirit is operative on the whole body, not just on individuals. All decisions were made by them and conveyed to the congregations by messenger. We operate the same way, only on a larger scale. The preaching work is no longer local. To facilitate a global exercise, you need a global body. Who else is doing it....you? Single-handedly, are you going to preach "in all the inhabited earth"? How? By internet? What about those who live in remote regions, hard to access, who have no internet? We go there....by plane, by boat or canoe, by 4WD and on foot....do you?

Interesting! What passages did I use which indicated to you that I used an old NWT?

One that comes to mind is John 17:3. It has had an adjustment in keeping with a better understanding of the original meaning of the text.

Paul was addressing the Corinthians. Congregations met in households. They didn't have a corporation headquarters. What you are really telling me, and the world, is that "Yeah, Jesus is the only way to Jehovah, true, BUT, we are the only way to Jesus. And that's presumptuous at the least, and out right lie at the worst. Your job, like Paul's and like mine, is to plant the seed. That's all.

But you, as an isolated individual who seems to know it all better than anyone, are here telling others that you are like Paul, planting seeds. What seeds are you planting, exactly? If your are getting your information from Jehovah's organization then you are dispensing food from the governing body whilst telling everyone that you think they are false prophets....kinda hypocritical, don't you think?

Apparently supporting a human organization of false prophets. Where were Enoch's, John's, Melchizedek's brothers and sisters?

Why is John in this list? And which John?
Enoch and Melchizedek both lived in pre-Israel and pre-Christian times. The apostle John was a member of the Christian congregation and John the Baptist was a Jew, put to death before there was a separation from Judaism. He was chosen before his miraculous birth for his unique role....do you see yourself in that position? I'd like to know why.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Most definitely. I was merely pointing out that I took my spiritual responsibility, a personal responsibility, very serious. It was very important to me.

I know that is what you believe....but are things always the way we see them? I am assuming that many Jews who rejected Jesus as Messiah were equally convinced that he was a phony....just another false prophet.

Jehovah doesn't think of any one as his brother. I've never heard such a thing. Friend, yes. Children, yes. Brother? No.

I didn't say that. Read it again.....you said "a brother"...so did I. You were referring to being a spiritual brother in the congregation....so was I. Did Jehovah see you as "a brother" even though others in the congregation may have assumed that you should be? If John 6:44 is correct, then it is God who 'draws' right-hearted ones to his truth. Where does it indicate that individuals could dictate to the "faithful slave" (whom Jesus appointed) what to accept and what to reject? It's a package....you either accept all of it.....or none of it.
You can't have one foot in, and one foot out of the truth.

There's more to it than that. Hypocrites didn't stumble me, they revealed to me the reality.

And what was the reality? They did not live up to your expectations of what you thought they ought to be. Yet you yourself lied to them by your own admission. You excused that, I noticed, but you cannot excuse others for being imperfect like we all are. I think it's called human nature. We readily excuse our own imperfections but cry foul when others have them. Isn't that forgiving yourself, but not forgiving others?

I didn't want to let them decide for me what was right and what was wrong. I doubted their claims of Jehovah's direct participation in their affairs. So I said to myself, I want to go from door to door more than anything, let's go out with them, as the PO suggested, and see what it's like. I told you what it was like.

And all you saw was what you were looking for. When we go out preaching, we do so on our own time, at our own expense and we feel privileged to take God's message out to people as Jesus told us to. Do you go door to door? Are you preaching the kingdom message like Jesus instructed? (Matthew 10:11-15) Or could it be that you 'shook the dust off' with the wrong people? It would be a great pity if that were true.

The PO had a different scenario. He had smoked for years, before the surgeon general's warning the society allowed smoking, but publishers were not allowed to smoke. I came along much later when the policy was no smoking even for unbaptized publishers. Neither one of us were of the opinion that what we did was OK, we made mistakes. You know how the writers of the Bible were very honest and forthcoming about their mistakes. Not so much the society. Unless it becomes a legal issue or their numbers start to fall. Why is this? Because it would look like their organization isn't Jehovah's. It isn't. It doesn't work that way.

You really think this is about numbers? Was it about numbers in the first century? (Matthew 7:13-14) Even though there are many disfellowshipped every year, our numbers continue to climb. No one comes to Jehovah unless they are invited, and no one stays unless Jehovah continues to draw them and empower them.

There is another 'god' in this world who has great influence on those who don't believe. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
The "blindness" that he causes, paralyses the mind, which is where all information is processed. Believers are protected from that problem. The good news "shines through" for them, but not for unbelievers.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You encourage other people to investigate their denomination's shortcomings while yours forbids you to do so. Doesn't that bother you?

There is no harm in knowing our faults because we are confronted with our own imperfections and those of others every day....what we don't need is ex-JW's telling one side of a sob story where no one ever hears the whole story. If people judge by only hearing one side of a story, then they are going to believe what they want to believe anyway. Truth is the casualty. Jehovah knows the whole story and that is all that matters.

You ain't them.

In your opinion.....it's yours to have and to hold, if that is what you want to believe. Jehovah will never override your free will.

That's pretty much it. Organ transplants, vaccinations, higher education, the Standfasters (neutrality) are pretty much brief asides, covering up child molestation and false prophecy is the primary concern, other than the obvious fact that when anyone says they have the only way to God or truth even, they are lying.

Organ transplants were not safe in the early days.

Vaccinations are a personal choice....I would not touch them personally, but that is based on how unsafe I believe they are.

Higher education leads to what? More happiness, better possessions, less stress.....seriously, what is the point of joining the dogs eating the other dogs. We are happy to earn a living, pursuing goals that don't place material pursuits above spiritual ones. Jesus certainly set the example in this. None of the 12 apostles were educated men.....because knowledge often leads to pride and just being Jewish was a handicap enough, especially when there was a constant argument among them over who was the greatest. Jesus never concentrated on wealth, but on serving God. (1 Timothy 6:6-8)

Neutrality? Surely you cannot suggest that Jesus would support nationalism and everything that goes with it? After the diaspora, Jews no longer exclusively occupied their God-given land. Jesus' Jewish and gentile disciples were from a wide range of nations, who left their nationalism and false religious beliefs behind when they were baptized into Christ. Becoming a citizen of God's kingdom means pleading allegiance to that kingdom alone. Christians therefore have no worldly national attachments.....so they will be "no part of this world" (John 15:18-21; John 18:36) just as Jesus told them to be.

As for child molestation, tell me please how you keep people like that out of our congregations? They are good con artists, and we are trusting.....they groom the people they befriend and pretend to be "a brother" to them and their children.

In times past, this crime was not viewed as seriously as it is today, also it was not handled well in the legal system. Victims often faced vicious cross examination and were forced to face their abuser in court. The procedures were often more traumatic than the offense committed. But today, thankfully we have a better system, and child protection measures that do not allow those injustices to take place. They have been implemented in all organizations who have access to children. All organizations were affected....ours included.

The false expectations were part of a natural sifting that Jehovah has carried out over the years. In each case (and there were not many, nor did we ever predict a day or date) insincere ones were sifted out and it resulted in the faithful ones renewing their reliance on Jehovah to fulfill his prophesies in his own time and way. It will come, that we know for sure. Where we will be found in Jehovah's estimations at that time, may be a whole lot different to what we think it might be. We will all soon know.

Jesus is the judge. He may see us very differently to how we see ourselves. (Matthew 7:21-23)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There is no harm in knowing our faults because we are confronted with our own imperfections and those of others every day....what we don't need is ex-JW's telling one side of a sob story where no one ever hears the whole story. If people judge by only hearing one side of a story, then they are going to believe what they want to believe anyway. Truth is the casualty. Jehovah knows the whole story and that is all that matters.



In your opinion.....it's yours to have and to hold, if that is what you want to believe. Jehovah will never override your free will.



Organ transplants were not safe in the early days.

Vaccinations are a personal choice....I would not touch them personally, but that is based on how unsafe I believe they are.

Higher education leads to what? More happiness, better possessions, less stress.....seriously, what is the point of joining the dogs eating the other dogs. We are happy to earn a living, pursuing goals that don't place material pursuits above spiritual ones. Jesus certainly set the example in this. None of the 12 apostles were educated men.....because knowledge often leads to pride and just being Jewish was a handicap enough, especially when there was a constant argument among them over who was the greatest. Jesus never concentrated on wealth, but on serving God. (1 Timothy 6:6-8)

Neutrality? Surely you cannot suggest that Jesus would support nationalism and everything that goes with it? After the diaspora, Jews no longer exclusively occupied their God-given land. Jesus' Jewish and gentile disciples were from a wide range of nations, who left their nationalism and false religious beliefs behind when they were baptized into Christ. Becoming a citizen of God's kingdom means pleading allegiance to that kingdom alone. Christians therefore have no worldly national attachments.....so they will be "no part of this world" (John 15:18-21; John 18:36) just as Jesus told them to be.

As for child molestation, tell me please how you keep people like that out of our congregations? They are good con artists, and we are trusting.....they groom the people they befriend and pretend to be "a brother" to them and their children.

In times past, this crime was not viewed as seriously as it is today, also it was not handled well in the legal system. Victims often faced vicious cross examination and were forced to face their abuser in court. The procedures were often more traumatic than the offense committed. But today, thankfully we have a better system, and child protection measures that do not allow those injustices to take place. They have been implemented in all organizations who have access to children. All organizations were affected....ours included.

The false expectations were part of a natural sifting that Jehovah has carried out over the years. In each case (and there were not many, nor did we ever predict a day or date) insincere ones were sifted out and it resulted in the faithful ones renewing their reliance on Jehovah to fulfill his prophesies in his own time and way. It will come, that we know for sure. Where we will be found in Jehovah's estimations at that time, may be a whole lot different to what we think it might be. We will all soon know.

Jesus is the judge. He may see us very differently to how we see ourselves. (Matthew 7:21-23)
That is true, and this week's Watchtower study is truly very encouraging. Jehovah is greater than our hearts.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why don't jw's usually write that they are jw's, next to their religious signifier?

Not that your designation isn't just a tad contradictory....? o_O

How can a "disciple of Jesus" be a "theistic satanist"? You got me.....
confused0007.gif


Seems like for the very opinioted posts that many make, its a bit interesting when they have nothing listed next to religion. Sometimes they have christian, which i find interesting, because then jws say that "christendom", is bad...

Opinions are why we are here...aren't they? Isn't that what we all post? We are just reading other people's opinions.

"Christian" simply means a follower of Christ, whereas "Christendom" means the entire church system corrupted after the birth of Roman Catholicism. They all share the same core doctrines....whereas JW's do not accept any of them. I hope that clarifies things....
confused0072.gif
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Not that your designation isn't just a tad contradictory....? o_O

How can a "disciple of Jesus" be a "theistic satanist"? You got me.....
confused0007.gif




Opinions are why we are here...aren't they? Isn't that what we all post? We are just reading other people's opinions.

"Christian" simply means a follower of Christ, whereas "Christendom" means the entire church system corrupted after the birth of Roman Catholicism. They all share the same core doctrines....whereas JW's do not accept any of them. I hope that clarifies things....
confused0072.gif
If I called myself a christian, that's called lying, so, no, not really contradictory at all. And what is your definition of satan, I'm not even sure. What I'm saying, is that if I disagreed with the usual definition of christian, I wouldn't put it as my religion.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If I called myself a christian, that's called lying, so, no, not really contradictory at all.

How can a disciple of Christ not be a Christian? :shrug: It appears to be contradictory to me.

And what is your definition of satan, I'm not even sure.

The rebel who hijacked the human race and who now worship him as their god. This is the Bible's definition. Jesus called satan "a liar and the father of the lie" because he is the first one in human history to tell a lie.

What I'm saying, is that if I disagreed with the usual definition of christian, I wouldn't put it as my religion.

sign0153.gif
....now I am more confused than ever.....
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The rebel who hijacked the human race and who now worship him as their god. This is the Bible's definition. Jesus called satan "a liar and the father of the lie" because he is the first one in human history to tell a lie.

Who is 'their'?

Btw I don't believe that Jesus actually called Peter the fallen angel.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Well, who would expect you to? You see, we have many people like yourself who come and go. It's not at all unusual for people to find fault and shatter whatever bubble they think being a Christian means to them. Half the battle is learning to do what God does with us all the time.....putting up with human shortcomings. It's part of what God said he has to do.....to "remember we are dust". Do we do that with each other though?

Having human issues did not make God abandon Israel, even when they turned to Baal worship and sacrificed their own children to a false god. He clung to Israel, warts and all, until his purpose in connection with them was done. His main intention for now is accomplishing his purpose in ushering in the only form of rulership that will benefit all mankind. (Daniel 2:44) He has always worked organizationally because he is an organized God. Today he is using what we believe is the only global brotherhood that is taking the kingdom message to every nation on earth. It is what Jesus said he would support and he has been doing that for the last 100 years. Christendom hasn't got a clue what the kingdom is, let alone what it will do for humanity and this earth. (Matthew 24:14)

I don't disagree with any of this but I don't understand it having anything at all to do with the question of my baptism it is supposed to be addressing. In the days of Daniel Jehovah was with them, and yes, even then they, not unlike you and I, were far from perfect, but he had his prophets who spoke out vehemently against the wrong doing. These prophets didn't pass the blame, they didn't associate with the wrongdoers and they didn't hang around the temple and attempt to cover up a multitude of sins by proclaiming Jehovah's exclusive favor.

Making mistakes about the timing of the coming kingdom is nothing new. The apostles thought it was going to be set up in the first century. (Acts1:6) it's not a false prophesy...it is the same prophesy, not yet fulfilled. But did we get all bent out of shape when our hopes were not realized....some did, but it just demonstrated where their heart was....they saw the end as something to benefit themselves, not for the real purpose of vindicating Jehovah's Universal Sovereignty. Every now and then, God weeded out those whose motives were selfish. Jesus said that satan had demanded to "sift" his disciples like wheat. The faithful continued to preach, confident that the end will come in Jehovah's own time. Those who were sifted out became isolated and bitter, blaming everyone but themselves.

This is just sad. You are referring to 1975, when the leaders of the Watchtower had very well known publicity stunt to attract people that backfired on them. Since their beginning they were one of many churches that practiced the "The End Is Coming" technique, because, a lot of people were buying into it. So they had date after date after date when, like the false prophet Hananiah in Jeremiah 28, it backfired. The numbers began to fall. Then he uses the old Watchtower excuse of sifting the wheat. So 100 years of false prophecy is blamed upon the poor idiots who believed they were Jehovah's organization. And, to a certain degree, that's fair. If you want to give your money over to false prophets, and you are so lazy, stupid and apathetic to not pick up on that fact I guess you get what you pay for. But to be standing still at the end of it as if you are the wheat and not the weed, is a bit much to ask.

At Acts Of The Apostles 1:6 his disciples asked if he would restore the kingdom at that time, they didn't announce it prematurely. Deuteronomy 18:20-22

Since the global preaching, (of the sort taught by Jesus) needed organization, he has to use what he has, (imperfect though it is) and for the last 100 years he has used one organization who have done what he asked. (Matthew 28:19-20) When Jesus said that the "food" was to be dispensed "at the proper time" through this one agency, Jehovah had his reasons for not dispensing that food all at once. We got what we needed, when we needed it. The faithful are still preaching....where are those who abandoned ship? Have they called at your door lately? When you burn your bridges, you leave yourself with nowhere to go.

It seems to me as if you demand more of Jehovah's people than he does. If you are waiting for us to become perfect, we might have that accomplished in about 1,000 years.

There are Christian missionaries all over the world. The Mormons are quite active where I live, going from door to door as you do. The technological advances in my lifetime alone are staggering. Any of these could apply to the same sort of activity as you describe. My old website was visited by people in over 200 countries. While I think that the work the Society has done is fantastic, I don't think that it is reason enough for you to sit here and defend some of their abhorrent practices. You justify your own bad behavior in the name of Jehovah while projecting yourself in a position of his favor much like the religious leaders of Jesus' day.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Who is 'their'?

Btw I don't believe that Jesus actually called Peter the fallen angel.
You are like a chameleon.....I can't keep up with the changes you are making.....what's going on?

But in answer to your question, who is "their" ? It's the ones who choose satan as their god. He is called satan the devil because he is a slanderer and a murderer. But he is also one who masquerades as "an angel of light" misleading people into following him without being aware of who it is that they are worshipping.

Jesus did not say to Peter "get behind me satan" because he thought he was the devil, but because Peter was unwittingly trying to subvert Jesus' mission by appealing to self interest, which is why the devil defected in the first place.
 

Earthling

David Henson
At this point I feel I should in form the reader that the Watchtower strictly forbids it's members to consult the writings or spoken testimony of any apostate of the organization. This term applies to anyone who was formerly a baptized publisher in that organization and left, then to criticize or speak out against their former organization. So, while they can discuss criticisms with us, they can't discuss them with former members. Or at least they are not supposed to. So, I've decided it would be improper and disrespectful of me to post any videos with Raymond Franz, who was on the Governing Body until charges of apostasy resulted in him leaving and writing 2 books on his experiences. There are other videos on YouTube I would recommend to the non JW but won't be posting here.

People are still spending time in prison for their faith....so did the apostles.

True, but the apostles were around for nearly 100 years, the last 60 or so, depending upon how old they were when becoming apostles and how long they lived, didn't change their policy which had resulted in thousands of people, many of them children, dying or going to prison unnecessarily.

Those who declined organ transplants in that early period when it was very experimental may have been spared unnecessary suffering when things went horribly wrong, as they often did. Have you heard of graft verses host disease? Do you know what happened with organ rejection? There was so much more to learn to make those things safer.

[Shakes head and sighs] Terrible. The Presiding Overseer (PO) of the congregation where I live at the time I first studied had a wife who, the time of which you speak, needed a kidney transplant. She didn't get one because the Watchtower had concluded that organ transplants were, to Jehovah, the same as cannibalism. Thousands of people died. You've been in the truth since about 1973 so you would have seen some of this happening to your brothers and sisters . Then the Watchtower changed it's policy and h is wife was put on a list of transplant. Too late. She died.

When I stopped studying the first time it's because I got an Awake! magazine in the mail with pictures of young children who were JW's and had lost their lives due to refusing blood transfusions. I asked the PO if he could tell me absolutely for sure that by joining their organization I wasn't condoning the unnecessary death of children like this in vain, and he rightly told me he could not.

Now, I would have disagreed with their position on organ transplants from the start, because there was no scriptural basis for it, but I don't necessarily disagree with their position on blood transfusions. I do disagree that it is their place to make those sort of decisions resulting in life or death or impacting the lives to such a degree as the things we are covering in this thread.

And as for people losing everything? What a load of old cods! There was never any recommendation from the GB to sell everything and wait for the end. I was around in 1975 and I can assure you you that it was offered as a hope, (wouldn't it be nice) not as a prophesy. When 1975 came and went, the faithful carried on doing what Jesus commanded. Where did the unfaithful go? They got all bent out of shape.....angry.....disillusioned....lost....and they still are. They lost their joy and if they blamed the brothers instead of themselves, they never got it back.

If there is a change in thought, the GB let's us know why and we carry on. What Jesus began, cannot be stopped. Whiners are gonna whine and blame everyone else for their problems. The one sided sob stories are a dime a dozen.

This, dear reader, is the real Jehovah's Witnesses' brotherly love. Not the fake "love bombing" they practice on you when you're fresh meat, but when you have become one of them. I was born in the year 1966, the year the Watchtower began implying that 1975 would be the end. I remember around that time the JWs visiting my mom warning her of the impending doom and the need to join and I remember the newspaper and television news stories. Here is a clip from the Watchtower of 1966.

"Does God's rest day parallel the time man has been on earth since his creation? Apparently so. In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man's existence and also the first 6,000 years of Gods rest day come to an end? The year 1975. It means that within a relatively few years we will witness the fulfillment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the "time of the end"." Awake! 1966 Oct 8 pp.19-20

I don't know if this is from an apostate site, but there is more on 1975 here. Sure sounds like false prophets to me. You be the judge.

The writing team are still part of Jehovah's organisation. Not a thing gets published without the approval of the governing body. There is no one person who gets a say in any of that because, just as Jesus' disciples were also directed by the original governing body in Jerusalem, the holy spirit is operative on the whole body, not just on individuals. All decisions were made by them and conveyed to the congregations by messenger. We operate the same way, only on a larger scale. The preaching work is no longer local. To facilitate a global exercise, you need a global body. Who else is doing it....you? Single-handedly, are you going to preach "in all the inhabited earth"? How? By internet? What about those who live in remote regions, hard to access, who have no internet? We go there....by plane, by boat or canoe, by 4WD and on foot....do you?

Do you? How much time do you spend on this forum and how much in service? And what about the time from the death of the apostle John on Patmos about 100 C.E. to the arrival of Charles Taze Russell in 1879? Jehovah had decided that he didn't need an "earthly organization" and preaching work at that time?

One that comes to mind is John 17:3. It has had an adjustment in keeping with a better understanding of the original meaning of the text.

Indeed.

But you, as an isolated individual who seems to know it all better than anyone, are here telling others that you are like Paul, planting seeds. What seeds are you planting, exactly? If your are getting your information from Jehovah's organization then you are dispensing food from the governing body whilst telling everyone that you think they are false prophets....kinda hypocritical, don't you think?

No, I don't. Did the prophets of old who spoke out against Jehovah's organization, on his behalf, feel like hypocrites? You asked me how it came to be that my thinking is much like yours? Because freely the Watchtower gave to me I truthfully answered. Do you then expect me to lie on their behalf or to tell the truth in the wrongdoing I see? This is a difficult thing for you to accept because you see the Watchtower as Jehovah's. Jehovah don't need for me to lie or cover up his error, and you know this, so the criticisms I have for the organization come from the weaknesses of the imperfect people therein. You have to more clearly make that distinction.

Why is John in this list? And which John?
Enoch and Melchizedek both lived in pre-Israel and pre-Christian times. The apostle John was a member of the Christian congregation and John the Baptist was a Jew, put to death before there was a separation from Judaism. He was chosen before his miraculous birth for his unique role....do you see yourself in that position? I'd like to know why.

John the Baptist, Enoch and Melchizedek, like many of Jehovah's prophets, were somewhat isolated in circumstances not unlike my own.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
First of all, you are talking about a small percentage that took place a great deal earlier. As I said, there is a great deal of corroborating evidence for the Bible, not for the book of Mormon. That doesn't imply all of the evidence has been gathered or that all of it gathered has been interpreted correctly, but the latter pales in comparison to the former. The Bible has a great deal, the other doesn't.
You obviously don't have anywhere near as much background on the Book of Mormon as you think you do, but I'm not here to try to convince you of anything.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Then we agree up to this point.



There we disagree.
I guess you haven't read the Bible very carefully then. I love the Bible and have no interest whatsoever in discrediting it. But I bet you could find a dozen people on this forum who would love to prove you wrong about the Bible contradicting itself. You can even find websites on the subject. Sure, the contradictions within the Bible can be explained by someone who understands them, but so can the contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon
 

Earthling

David Henson
I know that is what you believe....but are things always the way we see them?

They seldom are it seems, and of this I am aware. From the first time I studied the Bible years ago, my favorite scripture was Micah 6:8. My NWT reads: "He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God?" I've never been able to find anything on the Hebrew word modest myself, but the PO I studied with showed me an old article of the Watchtower which explained that the meaning of the word "modest" means literally to be aware of ones own limitations.

I am assuming that many Jews who rejected Jesus as Messiah were equally convinced that he was a phony....just another false prophet.

Perhaps, but I think that they were more likely fooled by religious tradition. They were expecting a political savior from their oppressors.

I didn't say that. Read it again.....you said "a brother"...so did I. You were referring to being a spiritual brother in the congregation....so was I. Did Jehovah see you as "a brother" even though others in the congregation may have assumed that you should be?

I see. That makes much more sense, sorry for the confusion.

If John 6:44 is correct, then it is God who 'draws' right-hearted ones to his truth. Where does it indicate that individuals could dictate to the "faithful slave" (whom Jesus appointed) what to accept and what to reject? It's a package....you either accept all of it.....or none of it.
You can't have one foot in, and one foot out of the truth.

I'm aware of the "faithful and discreet slave" and the Watchtower's changing positions on the subject. I am extremely cautious in taking those sorts of terms and applying them in a religious sense, it tends to distort everything and promotes corruption. The anointed, for example, are not anointed in a literal sense so leave it at that. It's just a priestly class in disguise. Before you know it you have all of these meaningful teachings reduced to nonsensical bumper sticker slogans. Some of the more quixotic trappings of religion.

I can't, you say, have one foot in, and one foot out of the truth but isn't that what you are suggesting? Become a Jehovah's Witness and tolerate the belial along with the truth? Personal responsibility. I know that the Watchtower frowns on independent thinking, but Jehovah gave me a brain to use myself, not to lord over someone else.

And what was the reality? They did not live up to your expectations of what you thought they ought to be. Yet you yourself lied to them by your own admission. You excused that, I noticed, but you cannot excuse others for being imperfect like we all are. I think it's called human nature. We readily excuse our own imperfections but cry foul when others have them. Isn't that forgiving yourself, but not forgiving others?

And all you saw was what you were looking for. When we go out preaching, we do so on our own time, at our own expense and we feel privileged to take God's message out to people as Jesus told us to. Do you go door to door? Are you preaching the kingdom message like Jesus instructed? (Matthew 10:11-15) Or could it be that you 'shook the dust off' with the wrong people? It would be a great pity if that were true.

The reality was in stark contrast to the presentation. You keep admonishing me for telling the truth as I saw it, which did include my own admission of gross sin. You want me to overlook those who went out in service with me that day? Almost immediately after I prayed to Jehovah and the JWs came to my house out in the country I moved away to another place. This is where I began my first Bible study. The first time I attended the Kingdom Hall there the Presiding Overseer had to give a very stern talk on gossip, which apparently had been a concern there, perhaps some event had taken place with some really negative results, from the nature of the talk. Later he apologized to me for him having to do that on my first visit. I told him there was absolutely no need to apologize to me for disciplining the congregation. Real boats rock. I told him I would gladly accept such discipline.

You missed the point of my criticism. For clarification, I didn't join the JWs because I thought they were false prophets and I couldn't condone the abuse of children, at that time, specifically abuse through a ban on blood transfusions. I didn't know at that time about the covering up of child sexual abuse.

You really think this is about numbers? Was it about numbers in the first century? (Matthew 7:13-14) Even though there are many disfellowshipped every year, our numbers continue to climb. No one comes to Jehovah unless they are invited, and no one stays unless Jehovah continues to draw them and empower them.

The narrow way widens, huh? Tell me, what is the difference between the Catholic Excommunication and the JW disfellowshipping and shunning other than name?

The Watchtower said this about excommunication in their Jan 8, 1947 AWAKE Magazine:

Excommunicated persons were looked upon with contempt, being cursed and damned by the Devil
Excommunication as a punishment or 'medicinal remedy' finds NO SUPPORT IN THE BIBLE
Excommunication is altogether foreign to Bible teachings. Hebrews 10:26-31
Excommunication had a 'pagan influence'
The clergy used excommunication as a 'weapon' to attain power and secular tyranny

There is another 'god' in this world who has great influence on those who don't believe. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
The "blindness" that he causes, paralyses the mind, which is where all information is processed. Believers are protected from that problem. The good news "shines through" for them, but not for unbelievers.

Why would the 'god' of this system concentrate on the unbelievers he already has when it's the believers he wants?
 

Earthling

David Henson
I guess you haven't read the Bible very carefully then. I love the Bible and have no interest whatsoever in discrediting it. But I bet you could find a dozen people on this forum who would love to prove you wrong about the Bible contradicting itself. You can even find websites on the subject. Sure, the contradictions within the Bible can be explained by someone who understands them, but so can the contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon

OK, at Abraham 3:24 the heavens and earth are created using materials that already existed. That isn't compatible with John 1:1-4. Explain. And as for Biblical contradictions, I refer you to my thread on these forums, Contradictions Challenge
 

Earthling

David Henson
You obviously don't have anywhere near as much background on the Book of Mormon as you think you do, but I'm not here to try to convince you of anything.

Well, you are right about my background on the Book of Mormon, and I appreciate your not trying to convince me of anything, but I sure do enjoy learning as much as possible about what others believe, even when they disagree with me. If you don't mind me questioning those beliefs as I do my own.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
OK, at Abraham 3:24 the heavens and earth are created using materials that already existed. That isn't compatible with John 1:1-4. Explain.
I see our rejection of an ex nihilo creation being an entirely different subject that what is discussed in John 1:1-4.

Those verses (from the KJV) read as follows: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

To me (and I would suppose that to any Mormon you might ask), this means simply that the Word (i.e. Jesus Christ) existed in the beginning (i.e. at the time the events outlined in Genesis transpired). He was known as God (also as the Son of God) and was with God the Father. He created everything that was made."

Abraham 3:24 (from The Pearl of Great Price, for those who may be reading this and wondering where on earth such a scripture reference is found) states: "And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell."

According to Mormon belief, Jesus Christ was like His Father from before the foundations of this world. He was therefore, "like unto God." Because we hold that all human beings, and not just Jesus Christ, had a pre-mortal existence, "those who were with him" were likely all of God's spirit offspring (i.e. us). We believe that all of God's spirit offspring, including the one who would be His Only Begotten in the flesh, would ultimately spend a period of time on the earth which the Son of God, working under the direction of His Father, created.

And as for Biblical contradictions, I refer you to my thread on these forums, Contradictions Challenge
I will take a look at that thread.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Well, you are right about my background on the Book of Mormon, and I appreciate your not trying to convince me of anything, but I sure do enjoy learning as much as possible about what others believe, even when they disagree with me. If you don't mind me questioning those beliefs as I do my own.
We should get along fine then, as I feel much the same way as you do. I'm always questioning and hopefully always learning. Coming to understand other people's beliefs is almost always a positive thing, IMO.
 
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