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Why Are Atheists Less Likely To Become Criminals?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It's suprising how many people say to me, "You're an Atheist? You must have no conscience about committing crime then." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we see a very different picture:

In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about 1/10 of 1%. W. T. Root, professor of psychology at the Univ. of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said "Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are absent from penitentiariers or nearly so.

During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics, 26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious. Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics, 435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and 1 Unitarian.

Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked 22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates. In "Who's Who" 91% were college graduates, and he commented that "intelligence and knowledge produce right living" and that "crime is the offspring of superstition and ignorance."

Surveyed Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate religious, carefully herded by chaplains.

In Joliet, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists and 0 non-religious.

Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in their state population. But in the prisons, there were 22 times as many Baptists as Jews, and 18 times as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing, there were 1,553 total inmates with 855 of them Catholics (over half), 518 Protestants, 177 Jews and 8 non-religious. There's a very interesting qualified statistic.

Read the rest of the article at:

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/09/godlessness-rare-behind-bars.html

Do these statistics and the statistics in the full article surprise you?

How do you account for the fact that so few atheists are in prison if you believe that atheism leads to immorality?

Why are atheists, as a group, less likely to become criminals?

Conversely, why are religious people, as a group, more likely to become criminals?

Why do you suppose the 52% of Americans who belong to no church only represent 1% of the prison population?

If the Religious Right takes over, will the crime rate go up?

If a country becomes a theocracy, can we expect crime to soar?

Last, is it true that Mike182 read the entire Encyclopedia Britannica when he was only 15 because someone told him there were outstanding sex scenes in it, or is this just another silly RF rumor no one knows how it got started?
 

Random

Well-Known Member
I don't think Atheists are less likely to become criminals. Despite what the useless "debunkers" might say, free-thinking adherence to law and order is not exclusive to those who deny God or gods. It is more likely that those who commit crimes do so against the God or gods they believe in, regardless of their denomination.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Sunstone said:
Do these statistics and the statistics in the full article surprise you?
Yes, I am afraid they do
How do you account for the fact that so few atheists are in prison if you believe that atheism leads to immorality?
Not applicable, because I don't believe for a moment that being atheist leads you to immorality ( except, maybe the occasional atheist, living 'in sin' with his latex lady friend:p )
Why are atheists, as a group, less likely to become criminals?
Maybe because they feel less 'restricted' ? Maybe the need to "try and live a sinless life" causes some subconscious rebellion - frankly, it's the only possible answer I can give.
Conversely, why are religious people, as a group, more likely to become criminals?
The answer was included in the last question
Why do you suppose the 52% of Americans who belong to no church only represent 1% of the prison population?
Because they are far more fiendish and evade capture?:rolleyes:
If the Religious Right takes over, will the crime rate go up?

If a country becomes a theocracy, can we expect crime to soar?
I haven't a clue; what I do know is that I do not believe that religion and politics mix.
Last, is it true that Mike182 read the entire Encyclopedia Britannica when he was only 15 because someone told him there were outstanding sex scenes in it, or is this just another silly RF rumor no one knows how it got started?

No, it isn't! I am the one who started it!:biglaugh:
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Godlike said:
I don't think Atheists are less likely to become criminals.

Do you have a rational basis for denying the statistics, or are you just arbitrarily denying the statistics?
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
michel said:
Because they are far more fiendish and evade capture?:rolleyes:

And the ones that are captured have been instructed to pose as Catholics to give them a bad rap.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Ormiston said:
And the ones that are captured have been instructed to pose as Catholics to give them a bad rap.

Dang! You weren't supposed to reveal that!
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
Dang! You weren't supposed to reveal that!

:sorry1: I hope this doesn't get back to Victor...

But, in all honesty, I think there are fewer atheists in prison because we're just better people and God loves us more. :eek:
 

Random

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
Do you have a rational basis for denying the statistics, or are you just arbitrarily denying the statistics?

Why do Atheists always resort to challenging the rationality of those who question their view of reality? It's dissapointing and only shows how limited they are, really. I gave my answer in full in the two lines after the one you quoted.

Statistics can lie. Perhaps, to get a fuller view of the situation, you would be interested in spending some time with prisoners in one of your country's many jails, to find out firsthand what they do and don't believe. Discover the truth of the matter for yourself, instead of drawing conclusions from the numbers.

To say that religious ignorance and superstition are the cause of greater numbers of believers in prison is ignorant and creates another (atheistic) superstition about religious people. Rationality and reason are not the exculsive purvue of Atheists and the constant need such people seem to have to prove they are Better Humans than those who disagree with them only shows they are insufficient to the task.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Godlike said:
Statistics can lie.

These are statistics compiled from several sources and all in substantial agreement with each other. Are you therefore suggesting that all of those statisticians are liars?

Godlike said:
Why do Atheists always resort to challenging the rationality of those who question their view of reality? It's dissapointing and only shows how limited they are, really. I gave my answer in full in the two lines after the one you quoted.

My apologies for not being able to understand what you were trying to communicate in the two lines after the one I quoted. Would you like to rephrase your answer? Perhaps you could explain what you meant?
 

Random

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
These are statistics compiled from several sources and all in substantial agreement with each other. Are you therefore suggesting that all of those statisticians are liars?



My apologies for not being able to understand what you were trying to communicate in the two lines after the one I quoted. Would you like to rephrase your answer? Perhaps you could explain what you meant?

I regret replying to this now...nevermind. Maybe you're right, maybe Atheists are wonderful human beings, so much better than the crazy, irrational religious ones. I don't know, I tend to believe what's in my heart, not what deterministic systems or statistical "analysis" offer me. I guess I must be insane, hmm?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Godlike said:
I regret replying to this now...nevermind. Maybe you're right, maybe Atheists are wonderful human beings, so much better than the crazy, irrational religious ones. I don't know, I tend to believe what's in my heart, not what deterministic systems or statistical "analysis" offer me. I guess I must be insane, hmm?

Actually, I think you're making more assumptions in less than 50 words than most people make in a month. For instance, where in any of this have I said that atheists were "wonderful human beings, so much better than the crazy, irrational religious ones."?

For that matter, you seem content to put words in my mouth without even bothering to ask my opinion in the first place. The fact is, I haven't given my opinion on this other than to imply that I trust the statistics from so many sources are probably right. But I certainly have said nothing about why I think atheists are disproportionately under represented in prison populations.
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
Now, are these statistics including people who converted to a religion while in prison? I hear that this is very common. If that possibility is not taken into account, then I think the numbers could be skewed.

That being said, the statistics don't really suprise me at all. I can think of a good explanation for why this is true: generally there are more people who are religious than not, so it makes mathematical sense that there would be more Christians, Jews, etc in prison. It's not really a comment on the religion, since there is a good chance many of them are so only in name (like a lot of people). The other thing is that you generally find religious people in just about every demographic possible. However, only about 1% of the entire population is atheist, and most atheists are very well educated, which is a demographic area with a lower likelihood of going to prison.
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
Godlike said:
I regret replying to this now...nevermind. Maybe you're right, maybe Atheists are wonderful human beings, so much better than the crazy, irrational religious ones. I don't know, I tend to believe what's in my heart, not what deterministic systems or statistical "analysis" offer me. I guess I must be insane, hmm?

Wow, sensitive much?

Look, you can't expect to just say "well, I think it's wrong" without giving a reason, and not be questioned. That's just not how most of us roll. That's also why this is a discussion board, and not a "post your opinion and run" board.

Are you disagreeing with the statistics because you don't like the implication that atheists are more likely to be moral than the religious? Yes, it is possible for numbers to be manipulated, but I highly doubt that they could skew the numbers that much (nearly 1,000,000 to 1 in favor of religious people).

Do you believe that religious people are inherently more moral than atheists?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
MaddLlama said:
Now, are these statistics including people who converted to a religion while in prison? I hear that this is very common. If that possibility is not taken into account, then I think the numbers could be skewed.

Your question is addressed in the comments to the article, which are found following the article linked to. The short answer is there is no evidence that prision conversions have skewed the results.

However, only about 1% of the entire population is atheist, and most atheists are very well educated, which is a demographic area with a lower likelihood of going to prison.

I think you're onto something there. My hunch is that it's not religion, but education that is the key here. Atheists are less likely to be criminals because atheists are more likely to be well educated, and well educated people are less likely to be criminals.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Another constant in the statistics is a correlation between convicted criminals and backgrounds of poverty.

Could it be that atheists, agnostics and UU are not present not because of their beliefs but because such views tend to be the result of a liesurely life of education in which one has the time, oppourtunity and support to meditate upon their own identity and decide such matters for themselves? Such a person seems less likely to come from the hardship of poverty, right?

Not to say that education (or lack thereof) or poverty are the sole cause of criminal behavior, but is there a common ground indicating a symbiotic relationship between poverty, religion and criminal behavior?
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Here's one interesting study from the Journal of Religion and Society. It seems to raise more questions than it answers, but it's an interesting glimpse at what could be research of considerable value:

Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies:

[13] Among the developed democracies absolute belief in God, attendance of religious services and Bible literalism vary over a dozenfold, atheists and agnostics five fold, prayer rates fourfold, and acceptance of evolution almost twofold. Japan, Scandinavia, and France are the most secular nations in the west, the United States is the only prosperous first world nation to retain rates of religiosity otherwise limited to the second and third worlds (Bishop; PEW). Prosperous democracies where religiosity is low (which excludes the U.S.) are referred to below as secular developed democracies.

[14] Correlations between popular acceptance of human evolution and belief in and worship of a creator and Bible literalism are negative (Figure 1). The least religious nation, Japan, exhibits the highest agreement with the scientific theory, the lowest level of acceptance is found in the most religious developed democracy, the U.S.

[15] A few hundred years ago rates of homicide were astronomical in Christian Europe and the American colonies (Beeghley; R. Lane). In all secular developed democracies a centuries long-term trend has seen homicide rates drop to historical lows (Figure 2). The especially low rates in the more Catholic European states are statistical noise due to yearly fluctuations incidental to this sample, and are not consistently present in other similar tabulations (Barcley and Tavares). Despite a significant decline from a recent peak in the 1980s (Rosenfeld), the U.S. is the only prosperous democracy that retains high homicide rates, making it a strong outlier in this regard (Beeghley; Doyle, 2000). Similarly, theistic Portugal also has rates of homicides well above the secular developed democracy norm. Mass student murders in schools are rare, and have subsided somewhat since the 1990s, but the U.S. has experienced many more (National School Safety Center) than all the secular developed democracies combined. Other prosperous democracies do not significantly exceed the U.S. in rates of nonviolent and in non-lethal violent crime (Beeghley; Farrington and Langan; Neapoletan), and are often lower in this regard. The United States exhibits typical rates of youth suicide (WHO), which show little if any correlation with theistic factors in the prosperous democracies (Figure 3). The positive correlation between pro-theistic factors and juvenile mortality is remarkable, especially regarding absolute belief, and even prayer (Figure 4). Life spans tend to decrease as rates of religiosity rise (Figure 5), especially as a function of absolute belief. Denmark is the only exception. Unlike questionable small-scale epidemiological studies by Harris et al. and Koenig and Larson, higher rates of religious affiliation, attendance, and prayer do not result in lower juvenile-adult mortality rates on a cross-national basis.<6>

[16] Although the late twentieth century STD epidemic has been curtailed in all prosperous democracies (Aral and Holmes; Panchaud et al.), rates of adolescent gonorrhea infection remain six to three hundred times higher in the U.S. than in less theistic, pro-evolution secular developed democracies (Figure 6). At all ages levels are higher in the U.S., albeit by less dramatic amounts. The U.S. also suffers from uniquely high adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, which are starting to rise again as the microbe’s resistance increases (Figure 7). The two main curable STDs have been nearly eliminated in strongly secular Scandinavia. Increasing adolescent abortion rates show positive correlation with increasing belief and worship of a creator, and negative correlation with increasing non-theism and acceptance of evolution; again rates are uniquely high in the U.S. (Figure 8). Claims that secular cultures aggravate abortion rates (John Paul II) are therefore contradicted by the quantitative data. Early adolescent pregnancy and birth have dropped in the developed democracies (Abma et al.; Singh and Darroch), but rates are two to dozens of times higher in the U.S. where the decline has been more modest (Figure 9). Broad correlations between decreasing theism and increasing pregnancy and birth are present, with Austria and especially Ireland being partial exceptions. Darroch et al. found that age of first intercourse, number of sexual partners and similar issues among teens do not exhibit wide disparity or a consistent pattern among the prosperous democracies they sampled, including the U.S. A detailed comparison of sexual practices in France and the U.S. observed little difference except that the French tend - contrary to common impression - to be somewhat more conservative (Gagnon et al.).
 

BrandonE

King of Parentheses
Sunstone said:
I think you're onto something there. My hunch is that it's not religion, but education that is the key here. Atheists are less likely to be criminals because atheists are more likely to be well educated, and well educated people are less likely to be criminals.
doppleganger said:
Could it be that atheists, agnostics and UU are not present not because of their beliefs but because such views tend to be the result of a liesurely life of education in which one has the time, oppourtunity and support to meditate upon their own identity and decide such matters for themselves? Such a person seems less likely to come from the hardship of poverty, right?
I think these two quotes point to the crux of it. Education and economic opportunity are the largest crime deterrents. Crime, especially theft and crimes associated with selling drugs, are most often committed out of economic desperation due to perceived lack of economic opportunity (whether actual or not).
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
Sunstone said:
I think you're onto something there. My hunch is that it's not religion, but education that is the key here. Atheists are less likely to be criminals because atheists are more likely to be well educated, and well educated people are less likely to be criminals.

Exactly.
 

sparkyluv

Member
How many of those Catholics and Protestants are born again? How many are born again, but don't walk with the Lord?

The day there are more atheists in prison than Christians is the day I'll be truly terrified cause that means there are more atheists in this country than there are Christians. For there to be more "Christians" in jail than atheists makes sense seeing as how there's a WHOLE LOT more Christians in this country than atheists. That doesn't mean atheists are better people or that Christians are worse or vice versa.
 

Faint

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
It's suprising how many people say to me, "You're an Atheist? You must have no conscience about committing crime then." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we see a very different picture:
I agree. It's like, which child is going to be more well-behaved...the child who sees the importance in behaving well, or the child who is afraid of getting caught by his/her supernatural parent?


Sunstone said:
In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about 1/10 of 1%. W. T. Root, professor of psychology at the Univ. of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said "Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are absent from penitentiariers or nearly so.
Or it may be that the level of intelligence and reasoning skills that lead one away from organized religion ALSO contributes to making one a smarter criminal (the dumber ones tend to get caught more often).


Sunstone said:
During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics, 26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious. Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics, 435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and 1 Unitarian.
Sunstone, it's obvious that the government is persecuting Christians again. I actually read that in order to save money, death row has done away with electric chairs and lethal injections in favor of feeding prisoners to lions. This also saves local zoos the cost of feeding, which can be very expensive for a pride of adult lions.


Sunstone said:
Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked 22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates. In "Who's Who" 91% were college graduates, and he commented that "intelligence and knowledge produce right living" and that "crime is the offspring of superstition and ignorance."
I must say, "Dr. Christian" sounds like the name some cheesy 1950's superhero...or villian, or maybe a Night Ranger b-side.


Sunstone said:
Surveyed Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate religious, carefully herded by chaplains.
"Herded"? I wonder if the sheep pun was intended? Better than being carefully flocked by chaplains I suppose.


Sunstone said:
In Joliet, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists and 0 non-religious.
Angelina Joliet is such a whore to let so many people inside her. I wonder what Brad Pittt thinks about thatt.


Sunstone said:
Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in their state population. But in the prisons, there were 22 times as many Baptists as Jews, and 18 times as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing, there were 1,553 total inmates with 855 of them Catholics (over half), 518 Protestants, 177 Jews and 8 non-religious. There's a very interesting qualified statistic.
Sunstone said:

Do these statistics and the statistics in the full article surprise you?
In all seriousness, yes. It's very interesting.

Sunstone said:
How do you account for the fact that so few atheists are in prison if you believe that atheism leads to immorality?
I never thought atheism led to immorality myself.

Sunstone said:
Why are atheists, as a group, less likely to become criminals?
Smarter. Harder to catch. I'm not entirely sure that atheists are less likely to become criminals.

Sunstone said:
Conversely, why are religious people, as a group, more likely to become criminals?

Sunstone said:
Why do you suppose the 52% of Americans who belong to no church only represent 1% of the prison population?
Racial profiling.

Sunstone said:
If the Religious Right takes over, will the crime rate go up?
Yes, because my friends and I will be throwing molotov cocktails at various government buildings, and I doubt we would be alone in that.

Sunstone said:
If a country becomes a theocracy, can we expect crime to soar?
One can only hope. (see above) I would like the revolution to be televised.

Sunstone said:
Last, is it true that Mike182 read the entire Encyclopedia Britannica when he was only 15 because someone told him there were outstanding sex scenes in it, or is this just another silly RF rumor no one knows how it got started?
That wasn't Mike182, it was Jayhawker Soule. Please double check your facts.
 
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