• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

B

bibleonly

Member

truth101 said If our translations have flaws I want to know what they are

There’s nothing wrong with that!

But the way you go about it, is flawed
truth101 said aions (or proper english translation "eons") not forever

eons are a transliteration not a translation.

Case in point, the Greek word aggelos is transliterated into the Bible as angel.
Does that make angel a wrong translation? No! The word angel hasn’t been translated yet.

The proper translation for aggelos or angel is messenger.

The proper translation for aion is eternal and or everlasting.

truth101 said we know that aion means an age

We don’t know that!

truth101 said It is by usage that a word is defined and this has been my method throughout our discussions.

Just because your usage for the transliterated word eons is age.

This in itself doesn’t mean you have gained the proper translation by your extrapolation of the word eons.

We must remember that the Bible, in its entirety, is the Holy Word of God.
Every word, every phrase, is God-breathed. "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Peter 1:21.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The rules of grammar and the meanings of words should be derived entirely from the Bible, because the Bible alone must stand as the final authority in all matters of which it speaks.

This includes concepts, ideas, and truths and the form in which these ideas, concepts and truths are presented.

The Bible would be less than the Word of God if this were not so because the grammar and the words are the means by which Bible truth is presented.

So to insert the word age as the proper translation for the ancient New Testament Greek word aion, (after 2,000 year of history) in which words may no longer carry it’s original meanings or have ceased to be in use today, this is not the proper method for defining word usage in the ancient writings of God.


In fact, this method of interpolation is neither sound reasoning nor scriptural!

Because the Bible is its own interpreter, the student must leave no stone unturned in becoming acquainted with the Bible.

There is no short cut.

He must spend much time reading the Bible.

It is Foolish, not to be exposed to all that God has written in the Bible before saying, Thus saith the Lord.

The Bible must be read and re-read.

Any conclusion that the student of the Word comes to from reading a particular verse or passage must be tested for its validity by checking that conclusion against everything else the Bible offers concerning the subject.

Not what Pastor so and so said or what Dr. Greek’s conclusions were.



Isa. 28:9-10
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Who is God teaching?

Those that are comparing the Bible with the Bible!

Truth upon truth, verse-by-verse and word-by-word, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Let the Bible itself define what God intended that word’s usage to be
Let the Bible itself define what God intended the verse to mean.
Let the Bible itself define what God intended what His message is to man!


Only when the conclusion is found to be in harmony with all that the Bible teaches can the student know that he is on the path of truth.

 
T

Truth101

Member
FerventGodSeeker:
Just so we're clear, the word "aion" is not translated "forever" here, as you seem to think. It is the phrase "eis tous aionios." Or unless you're interpretation is wrong...;)

It doesn't simply say that all that was in His kingdom continues, but rather it states that the kingdom itself continues, and it still calls it HIS Kingdom, that will never end. Sorry, no Greek word games to play there, that second phrase does not use any variation of "aion." This is a blatant contradiction of your view.

No, He reigns "eis tous aionios", "to/into indefinite ages," not just one age as you were earlier claiming. Big, huge difference.
Click to expand...
Nevertheless as I asked "what does time or timeS have to do with eternity? Eternity is endless without beginning or end, time or times or age or ages all have beginning and endings. The scripture (if aionios is properly defined as eternity or everlasting) states that His (Christ's) rule over the house of Jacob is forever when we are told by Paul that His reign and rule is ONLY UNTIL He puts all enemies under His feet. He either rules forever or He rules UNTIL which makes it clear there is an end of His rule whether in 5 minutes or 500,000 centuries. The point here is it ends and to insert the concept of eternity into this passage is completely absurd as we are left with contradiction which is not sound doctrine. God Himself may be eternal but His dealings with man as far as His plan and purpose of restoration are concerned is for the ages. The final result of the consumation of the ages is a complete restoration of all creatures into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
I said:
Here are just a couple more scriptures in which "aionios" (or proper english translation, eonian)cannot possibly mean ETERNAL: Romans 16:25
Click to expand...
This phrase is also translated "since time began." (2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 1:2) Eternity is an infinite amount of time....I thought that was rather obvious.
Click to expand...
Not eternal. infinite is not really the best word to describe any amount of time, it is misleading to say the least. Time no matter how long still remains to be just that....Time.

No, I don't. It is perfectly reasonable to interpret these phrases as meaning that the indefinite number/amount of ages, extendingly indefinitely into the future, began at some point in time, and that God and His plans precede that point.
Click to expand...
For some reason I am getting the impression you are just confirming my point for me. I am beginning to believe you do not understand the signifigance of time contrasted with eternity. They are not the same no matter how long you attempt to extend time. Timelessness is outside the realm of time all together. Time is a created awareness. You seem to have attempted to justify the use of the words eternity and forever by extending the length of the time that these words truly mean.
To allay means "to put to rest; quiet, calm; to lessen, relieve, alleviate." God will allay sorrow and grief for all eternity, by not allowing us to ever experience it again
Click to expand...
. This is a straw man arguement to say the least. Although your statement is still true does not for a second prove that eternity or forever is being applied here. The statement still holds true when we properly understand it as pertaining to the ages.

You think we will never hope for anything once we get to heaven? I certainly think we will. Considering that we're going to be around for all eternity, I certainly hope God constantly shows us new facets of His majesty and glory constantly, so that we constantly have something to hope for. Your argument here is weak at best.
Click to expand...
Another strawman attempt. You are speaking of a possible (not stated fact) future hope that would have to be given us of God in the future, yet, The verse in question is dealing with the present hope we have now that will not be hoped for forever. This particular hope will have its fullfillment.


LOL. The entire basis of your argument is that all the references to "aionios" in the Bible (aionios life, aionios punishment, even aionios God) refer to one specific age, the future temporal kingdom of Christ. It's one thing to say, "Ok, I was wrong," or "Ok, I phrased that wrongly," but don't pretend like you haven't been saying what you have been saying all along.
Click to expand...
You cannot say that the entire basis of my arguement is that all references of aionios refer to one specific age. All ages combined have their conclusion or consumation at the end of the entire kingdom age. The kingdom is made up of many successive ages. Just as we have 24 hours in a day. You are attempting to make it sound as though I am saying that every hour is a day when I am not. The kingdom has always existed but was simply not revealed until we recieve the spirit.


Due to the fact that aionios refers to an indefinite number of ages into the future, the Greeks used it as a reference to eternality. FGS
Click to expand...
You continue to contradict your own statements. As I have said numerous times ages and eternity are not the same no matter how long you extend the duration. Now the Greeks did not use it as a reference to eternality but our translators have placed contradicting definitions to these words.

God Bless, Dave
 
FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
Truth101 said:
Nevertheless as I asked "what does time or timeS have to do with eternity? Eternity is endless without beginning or end, time or times or age or ages all have beginning and endings.
Click to expand...
Yes, just as we all have beginnings as human beings...yet we have the ability to spend FOREVER with Christ in heaven. While the ages were began at some point, they still endure indefinitely into the future. You're ignoring the connotative meanings of the words in question and getting hung up on technicalities here. Yes, I believe time had a beginning, however, when the Greeks used the term "aionios" in reference to our eternal life with Christ, the fact that God is an eternal God, etc, the clear connotation is that they extend indefinitely, i.e. ETERNALLY. Just as your scholar Vine noted, the words denotatively mean one thing, but connotatively mean something more. That's what you're missing.
The scripture (if aionios is properly defined as eternity or everlasting) states that His (Christ's) rule over the house of Jacob is forever when we are told by Paul that His reign and rule is ONLY UNTIL He puts all enemies under His feet. He either rules forever or He rules UNTIL which makes it clear there is an end of His rule whether in 5 minutes or 500,000 centuries.
Click to expand...
What you're missing in that passage is that the MODE of Christ's (and by extension, God's) reign is what changes, not the reign in itself. Once Christ's enemies are defeated, the mode of Kingdom reign will change. There will be no sin, no evil, no pain or sadness, etc. However, that doesn't mean God stops reigning entirely. As I pointed out , the passage states that Christ hands the Kingdom over to His Father...if the Kingdom ended with the defeat of His enemies there would be no Kingdom to hand over. Yet God will continue to be what He has always been, and always will be: King.

The point here is it ends and to insert the concept of eternity into this passage is completely absurd as we are left with contradiction which is not sound doctrine.
Click to expand...
As I said before, it's only a contradiction when you attempt to adopt a radical and unorthodox position and interpretation as you are doing.
God Himself may be eternal but His dealings with man as far as His plan and purpose of restoration are concerned is for the ages. The final result of the consumation of the ages is a complete restoration of all creatures into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
Click to expand...
I agree to an extent, although I would stipulate that God will be dealing with man (specifically the Church) for all eternity, we are His people and shall be so forever.

Not eternal. infinite is not really the best word to describe any amount of time, it is misleading to say the least. Time no matter how long still remains to be just that....Time.
Click to expand...
While this is true to a point, the verses in question simply state that time (the indefinite ages) had a beginning. That does not negate an interpretation of the connotative use of the word as "forever", i.e. for indefinite ages. The Greeks used phrases indicating an indefinite amount of time into the future in order to connotatively speak of an endless timespan. To deny this is to deny any mention in the New Testament of eternity.

For some reason I am getting the impression you are just confirming my point for me. I am beginning to believe you do not understand the signifigance of time contrasted with eternity. They are not the same no matter how long you attempt to extend time. Timelessness is outside the realm of time all together. Time is a created awareness. You seem to have attempted to justify the use of the words eternity and forever by extending the length of the time that these words truly mean.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what connotative language does. It extends the meaning of words and phrases beyond their denotative meaning. The Greeks used terms and phrases referring to an indefinite number of ages in order to refer to eternity.
This is a straw man arguement to say the least. Although your statement is still true
Click to expand...
LOL. If my statement is true and answers your question, how is it a "straw man"? Either you believe God will allay our sorrow for eternity, or you believe He will only allay sorrow for a temporary period of time. I believe He will do so for all eternity, and it is perfectly reasonable to obtain an eternal context out of this passage.

Another strawman attempt. You are speaking of a possible (not stated fact) future hope that would have to be given us of God in the future, yet, The verse in question is dealing with the present hope we have now that will not be hoped for forever. This particular hope will have its fullfillment.
Click to expand...
Yes, this PARTICULAR hope will, as will all our good hopes into eternity. This verse does not speak of one particular hope, it simply speaks of a general feeling of hope for all time. You speak as though this is a bad thing. Hope is a wonderful feeling, and I believe we will have happy and blessed hopes into all eternity, with God constantly answering and fulfilling our hopes before our eyes.


You cannot say that the entire basis of my arguement is that all references of aionios refer to one specific age. All ages combined have their conclusion or consumation at the end of the entire kingdom age. The kingdom is made up of many successive ages.
Click to expand...
Perhaps I haven't been reading well enough, but you've never said anyhting along these lines before now. You always referred to the Kingdom as a future, temporary age.
Just as we have 24 hours in a day. You are attempting to make it sound as though I am saying that every hour is a day when I am not. The kingdom has always existed but was simply not revealed until we recieve the spirit.
Click to expand...
The Kingdom has ALWAYS existed? So we're in the Kingdom now, then? And if it has always existed, why would it ever end? You seem to be taking major steps backward in your argument here.


You continue to contradict your own statements. As I have said numerous times ages and eternity are not the same no matter how long you extend the duration. Now the Greeks did not use it as a reference to eternality but our translators have placed contradicting definitions to these words.
Click to expand...
Really? Then what words or phrases DID the Greeks use to speak about eternality, pray tell?

FGS
Click to expand...
 
B

bibleonly

Member
l. 12:12
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

truth101 said …This may fatigue you but it is not I but the Lord who is in me where I draw my strength. I never grow tired because it is by the spirit that I understand. ……
I search out everything to find the truth.



Here, God said, much study in these other books is a weariness of the flesh.

But, truth101 doesn’t care what God said, he's wiser than God.

truth101, thinks that God will reward him for his disobedience.

truth101, he thinks that because he is searching these other books, these other books will lead him to truth.

2Tim. 3:7
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These other books are of the Flesh.
Let’s look again “much study is a weariness of the flesh” and then Christ said, “the flesh profiteth nothing”

Exactly what the Preacher said “all is vanity”


What will happen if you only read and study out of only the Bible?

Christ said,
The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Isa, 40:31
31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Those that are waiting for God to reveal His Word to them by His Spirit will not be weary.

Unlike those that have a lust for the flesh of man’s wisdom in all these other books.

They are not content with just the Bible only!

They need more knowledge and degrees behind their names to persuade men of their false doctrines.

It is the same lustful desire that Eve succumbed when Tempted of Satan!

Obedience to the Word of God wasn’t good enough.

Her Flesh lusted for more knowledge!

Eve too, believed that the Lord wanted her to search for truth elsewhere!
Gen.3: 4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God does know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Instead of just being content with the Word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God, she wanted to search out everything to find the truth.

Did she find what she was looking for?

Romans 1:25
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


She found by her searching outside of the Word of God, good is evil and evil is good


She imagined within her heart, that with truth of this fruit, my eyes will be open and I will become wise.

She thought that God would reward her for disobedience that she would become like god, knowing even more truth!

This wisdom that Eve attained was fleshy wisdom, out of man’s own mind, out of her lusting heart, desiring more truth to make her wise.
James 3:16
15 This wisdom descended not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

No matter how much you think you are searching for truth, the student who wishes to know the truth of the Bible must approach the Bible with an earnest desire to be obedient to the precepts and rules in the Scriptures.

In matters of doctrine and practice he should be ready to be obedient to anything and everything he reads in the Bible
1Cor. 3:19
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

When it comes to Salvation, not only does God count the wisdom of this world to be foolishness, but also just like Eve, if they persist in their lust to study the wisdom of men’s carnal knowledge for Salvation, then God will allow Satan to take them captive.
2Tim. 2:26
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 
T

Truth101

Member
Fereverentgodseeker said: Yes, just as we all have beginnings as human beings...yet we have the ability to spend FOREVER with Christ in heaven. While the ages were began at some point, they still endure indefinitely into the future. You're ignoring the connotative meanings of the words in question and getting hung up on technicalities here. Yes, I believe time had a beginning, however, when the Greeks used the term "aionios" in reference to our eternal life with Christ, the fact that God is an eternal God, etc, the clear connotation is that they extend indefinitely, i.e. ETERNALLY. Just as your scholar Vine noted, the words denotatively mean one thing, but connotatively mean something more. That's what you're missing

From your post I will focus more on your first paragraph because I believe there is much to say concerning it which would clear up some of your other replies as well.
Clearly you are then using the words “indefinite” and “eternal” synonymously which does not make for good scholarship. In your understanding you could easily replace the word “aionios” with the word “indefinite” or “indefinitely” and still hold to the understanding that all is still eternal although, indefinite duration and eternal duration are not equal. The definition of eternal leaves no room for calculating its duration because it is not limited to time at all while the definition of indefinite is limited to duration but not precisely calculable due to its unpredictability. Either way this is not where the weight of this view is. Each and every individual age or distinct biblical period of time has a beginning and an ending. This is clear in scripture. Since you agree that we are dealing with a succession of ages or periods of time you must also agree that each one has a specific duration from beginning to end but each is not limited to the same length of time. Each has its own “indefinite” duration but does come to an end regardless. They always end and a new one begins.
Furthermore, since you believe that aionios is an indefinite length of time, then you by accurate definition must agree even in your present understanding that this word cannot be defined in any way as timelessness, but really an unpredictable period of time, whether an age or successive ages.
Now considering the connotative meaning being something more I do agree but not that it is referring to “more time” but rather it is making more of a reference to the kingdom. The elect alone in this age have the earnest (not the fullness of it yet) of the spirit and are experiencing the kingdom even now but are waiting for the redemption of the purchased possession for they alone have been given the understanding of the mystery of His will (Eph 1:9-14). This is what it is to have more of a meaning than just referring to duration. By extending the duration beyond that which is given is to miss out on the understanding of Gods complete redemptive plan for all of His creatures. What I am trying to express is that the word aionios has “more” to do with “quality” rather than quantity but carries with it no hint of timelessness and to define it as such is absolutely “absurd”.

Ferverentgodseeker said:
To allay means "to put to rest; quiet, calm; to lessen, relieve, alleviate." God will allay sorrow and grief for all eternity, by not allowing us to ever experience it again
Truth101’s reply: This is a straw man arguement to say the least. Although your statement is still true does not for a second prove that eternity or forever is being applied here. The statement still holds true when we properly understand it as pertaining to the ages.
FGS’s reply: LOL. If my statement is true and answers your question, how is it a "straw man"? Either you believe God will allay our sorrow for eternity, or you believe He will only allay sorrow for a temporary period of time. I believe He will do so for all eternity, and it is perfectly reasonable to obtain an eternal context out of this passage.

Just because it is true that our sorrow will be allayed forever does not mean that is what the passage is saying. It is merely saying that our grief will be allayed. It is not expressing for how long because it is assumed in the passage that once given we will no longer have grief. On the other hand the hope that is being hoped for is specific. See below…

Ferverentgodseeker said: Yes, this PARTICULAR hope will, as will all our good hopes into eternity. This verse does not speak of one particular hope, it simply speaks of a general feeling of hope for all time. You speak as though this is a bad thing. Hope is a wonderful feeling, and I believe we will have happy and blessed hopes into all eternity, with God constantly answering and fulfilling our hopes before our eyes.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath
loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
What is the specific hope that is hoped for we are told will be hoped for for ever?
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your
calling;
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall
be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as
he is.
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
We are told there is one hope of our calling and that hope is Christ and the
fulfillment of all He has done. We walk in it by faith while in this life but, come the
resurrection we will experience it the fullness with no need to hope for this particular hope.

God is not dealing with future hopes that have not been mentioned in scripture or even hinted at. He is dealing with the hope we have now which will soon have its fulfillment and we will not be hoping for this particular hope again.
 
T

Truth101

Member
Ferverentgodseeker said: The Kingdom has ALWAYS existed? So we're in the Kingdom now, then? And if it has always existed, why would it ever end? You seem to be taking major steps backward in your argument here

The Kingdom has existed in the mind of God waiting to become a reality which was Gods whole plan for creation. He is working everything according to the council of his own will to fulfill His plan and purpose for it. The Father has given all things to His son and once fulfilled Christ will give it all back. For everything is of Christ. It is all of Him and through Him and to Him until He gives it up to the Father. The elect are given the knowledge of the kingdom now and are experiencing the kingdom in their lives while in this flesh. Right now it is by faith but that hope and faith will be fulfilled when we experience the resurrection and enter into the fullness of this expectation. My argument is not whether the kingdom is eternal or not. My argument is with Christ’s rule being eternal, which it is not. He puts down all rule and authority so how can He rule and reign once He has put it down?

Ferverentgodseeker said: Really? Then what words or phrases DID the Greeks use to speak about eternality, pray tell?

Tit 1:2 (CLNT)in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,
2Tim 1:9 (CLNT) Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,
I used the Concordant literal New testament because it is one of the most accurate translations of this word. Youngs literal is much the same although it says “the times of the ages”. The word immortal which speaks of deathlessness is another hint at a literal forever since those who become immortal never die. Other than this God is not dealing with eternal issues with His creatures. He has given us hope of things that must shortly come and this hope will be fulfilled but the aions will not, not until all enemies will be defeated and God the Father becomes all in all of His creation.
God Bless, Dave
 
B

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said …I guess you yourself are able to translated from the original manuscripts into english without flaw because you insist that it alll comes from the mind of men and trust nothing.

Because Hebrew and Greek texts are available for study and comparison, students of the Word can examine the original language to check the translators’ faithfulness.

Young’s Analytical Concordance and Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance assist non-Greek and non-Hebrew students to study God’s use of individual words as found in the original language without the commentary of man!



26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Our Lord has certainly blessed us!
 
T

Truth101

Member
truth101 said …I guess you yourself are able to translated from the original manuscripts into english without flaw because you insist that it alll comes from the mind of men and trust nothing.

Bibleonly said:
Because Hebrew and Greek texts are available for study and comparison, students of the Word can examine the original language to check the translators’ faithfulness
Click to expand...
I agree.

Young’s Analytical Concordance and Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance assist non-Greek and non-Hebrew students to study God’s use of individual words as found in the original language without the commentary of man!
Click to expand...
These books are meant to "assist" but not used as final authority because these to have their errors through trnaslation and word definitions. You are wrong on your last statement because you are implying that these books do not contain commentary when they do. Each definition is given and in many cases commented on. I also notice you are attacking my quotes of other writers. Well the reason I sometimes do this is because I do not believe I could explain it any better than them so I borrow a quote here and there. If you would listen to what is being said instead of attacking it as an enemy you may realize theres truth in the subject being addressed.



26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Our Lord has certainly blessed us!
Click to expand...
It is by the foolishness of preaching (teaching) that one hears the truth yet it is by the annointing of the spirit that we gain understanding. It must be heard before it can be understood but if we close our ears and assign mans wisdom to everything that is spoken we will never learn. The apostles preached the word and the scribes and pharasees obviously didnt trustthem either.

God bless, Dave
 
B

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said … To escape your own hypocritical words you would need to learn both aramaic, ancient hebrew and ancient greek in order to go directly to the unadulterated word of God (all available manuscripts)without flaw

Must I be limited to blindly following a teacher, knowing that he is a fallible human being and therefore subject to error?

Because Hebrew and Greek texts are available for study and comparison, students of the Word can examine the original language to check the translators’ faithfulness.

Young’s Analytical Concordance and Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance assist non-Greek and non-Hebrew students to study God’s use of individual words as found in the original language without the commentary of man!

The Bible is its own grammar book.

The careful student may begin to understand tenses, moods, and voices in Hebrew and Greek by studying these languages from the scriptures.

The rules of grammar and the meanings of words should be derived entirely from the Bible, because the Bible alone must stand as the final authority in all matters of which it speaks.

This includes concepts, ideas, and truths and the form in which these ideas, concepts and truths are presented.

The Bible would be less than the Word of God if this were not so because the grammar and the words are the means by which Bible truth is presented.

The serious Bible student should be relentless in his study of the Bible.

truth101 said These books are meant to "assist" but not used as final authority because these to have their errors through trnaslation and word definitions.

Young’s Analytical Concordance and Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance assist non-Greek and non-Hebrew students to study God’s use of individual words as found in the original language without the commentary of man!

I guess you need glasses, or you can’t read very good?

truth101 said You are wrong on your last statement because you are implying that these books do not contain commentary when they do. Each definition is given and in many cases commented on.

I know they contain commentary, I am saying you don’t have to use the commentary section to do word studies!
1John 2:26
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and you don’t need any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he

You can study God’s word without the commentary of man!
 
B

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said … To escape your own hypocritical words

Gal.4:16
16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth

Romans 2:8
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

truth101 said … The bible you use is no different than any other translations. They are all translated by man and there has never been a translation from hebrew and greek into english that has been flawless so you can hold your tonge concerning this because the very bible you quote from repeatedly is not exempt.

Because Hebrew and Greek texts are available for study and comparison, students of the Word can examine the original language to check the translators’ faithfulness.

The Bible in its original autographs (that is, in the original documents that were written), is exactly the message that God intended for man.

Each book, each paragraph, each sentence, each word, and each letter of each word, is exactly as God intended it to be.

The inquisitive student of the Bible who desires to know the truth must, therefore, approach the Bible with holy awe.

To understand a word or phrase or a concept in the Bible, we must determine how that same word, phrase, or concept is used everywhere else in the Bible.

Thus the Bible becomes its own dictionary; it becomes its own commentary.

While such diligent comparison requires much work on the part of the student of the Bible, is the only way to come to a true understanding of the biblical message.


truth101 said….so you can hold your tonge concerning this because the very bible you quote from repeatedly is not exempt.
Proverbs 22:21
21 That I might make you know the Truth of the words of truth; that you might answer the words of truth to them that I send to you?
.
(Young’s Analytical Concordance and Strongs Exhaustive Concordance help immeasurably in this respect because they give every word used in the original languages and where the words are found in the English King James Bible), it can be used without man’s commentary.
 
T

Truth101

Member
Bibleonly said:
Gal.4:16
16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth
Click to expand...
You have not become my enemy period but you have yourself brought contention into out discussion in the beginning because of your personal attacks on me. I still do not consider you an enemy and even if I did I have avoided discussion with you until I was able to approach without contention in my heart which you have made very hard to do. As for you telling me the truth I just do not see it like you say in scripture. You have given more light to evil and you have given more glory to the work of Satan than the work of Christ and I do not see your doctrine as glorifying God as our doctrine should. I believe you have a form of godlyness but you have without fail denied the power thereof. As I listen to the doctrine you speak all I see is Christ failing to accomplish all that He was sent to do. This I believe is error as I have in myself a doctrine of a Christ triumphent in all He came to do.
Romans 2:88 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Click to expand...
You see you have constantly thrown this indignation and wrath verse at me and by doing so you are accusing me of causing contention and that I obey not truth but unrightiousness. You do not know me or how I live my life. I do obey the truth and I do obey rightiousness only by the grace of God. It is not in me to do good but it is God in me that is my rightiousness. It is this approach to people that causes contention of which you continue to throw at me.
This is not the way I discuss matters of scripture. It is obvious that you are unwilling to discuss anything because you mind is already made up on what you believe is truth. It is not a matter of searching these things out together with you.
I discuss and share with friends I know in a way where everyone brings their food to the table and we sit and discuss every issue.
It is not my wish to be enemies with anyone. I'm here like everyone else trying to learn and share what I have been given. I will never claim to know all because we are all growing from glory to glory but will not recieve the fullness of knowledge until we put off this corruptable flesh.
God Bless, Dave
 
B

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said….You have no interest in truth as I said before. You are only after your own glory

2Cor. 12:6
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

2Cor. 13:8
8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

Gal.4:16
16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

truth101 said….You are only after your own glory

Romans 2:8
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
 
B

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said….You just refuse to listen to truth and continue to twist the scriptures as you squirm to find a way (by any means) to just merely prove me wrong..

John 8:43
43 Why don”t you understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word.

44 You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: you therefore don’t hear them, because you are not of God.

2Thess. 2:10
10 …. because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Yes, I refuse to listen to your vain babbling!

Eph. 4:25
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour:

Romans 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The constant concern of the child of God who dearly loves the Lord is to know and to do the will of God.

He recognizes that the Bible is the source book of truth.

It is the only authority that discloses the will of God for his life.

Only as it increasingly becomes part of his life will he be able to draw closer and closer to the rich storehouse of truths, which is the Bible

John 14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


John 18:37
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Eph. 4:21
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:17
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
 
B

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said….It is by the foolishness of preaching (teaching) that one hears the truth yet it is by the annointing of the spirit that we gain understanding. It must be heard before it can be understood but if we close our ears and assign mans wisdom to everything that is spoken we will never learn. The apostles preached the word and the scribes and pharasees obviously didnt trustthem either.


1Cor. 1:21
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You need to read the Bible again, it say’s it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching (Greek word kerugma meaning to proclaim, to publish a message)

As Jonah preach to Nineveh!
Matt. 12:41
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

It didn’t say teaching (Greek word didasko meaning to teach) as you erroneously inserted.


Futhermore, the message that Paul preached was not after man!

Gal. 1:11
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Paul’s preaching was not taught to him by man nor did he receive it from man!

Gal.1:12
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit revealed to Paul what to preach, the revelation of Christ.

1Cor. 2:4
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

Paul's preaching was not what was pleasing to man, but it was preaching that pleased God, preaching that the Holy Spirit used to save!

It is the Holy Spirit that creates the ear to hear!
Proverbs 20:12
12 The hearing ear, and the Seeing Eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

And then causes the person who is to be saved to come under the preaching of the True gospel!
Romans 10:14
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

God sends a preacher like Paul, who neither received it of man or was taught by man, but it had been reveal to him also by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:15
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

It is Then the Holy Spirit that first creates the spiritual ear to hear the word of God, (which is according to John 6:63 they are spirit and life, remember the fleshly ear itcannot hear spiritual truth.

63 It is the spirit that give life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

That why the scripture declares, “He that has ears to hear, let them hear what the Spirit say’s”


Romans 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Holy Spirit uses the Word of God (testifies of Christ) and creates in that person (whom God plan to save) an ear to hear and a new heart to believe, so that with the heart he believes in Christ righteousness for salvation and not his own works: and then out of this new created heart his mouth confesses his sin to the LORD and the LORD who is rich in Mercy forgives this person whom Christ died for. With this confession out of a newly created heart the new creature enter into Salvation.
Romans 10:10
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The Holy Spirit created, this new creation of Christ, the new man created in Christ Jesus, which first had a new created spiritual hear, which then believed in his new created spiritual heart and finally with his new spiritual mouth confession was made unto salvation and this salvation is for all eternity, everlasting life.

Proverbs 28:13
13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.






truth101 said….It must be heard before it can be understood but if we close our ears and assign mans wisdom to everything that is spoken we will never learn

No part of this was of man, All was done by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit!

You ears are still closed if you think that God’s word can be understood with man’s wisdom, and if that is the case, you will continue to learn but will never come to the knowledge of salvation.

2Tim. 3:7
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
T

Truth101

Member
Bibleonly said:
1Cor. 1:21
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You need to read the Bible again, it say’s it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching (Greek word kerugma meaning to proclaim, to publish a message)
Click to expand...
It didn’t say teaching (Greek word didasko meaning to teach) as you erroneously inserted.
Click to expand...


Mar 6:6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Jer 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.

Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

It appears that even the disciples used this word teaching synonimously with preaching. So your weak argument once again to just prove me wrong no matter what slanderous methods you need to use. It is you who needs to read the scriptures again. It is you who needs to have your eyes and ears opened to the idea that someone else just might have something to teach...oops! I mean preach to you.

God Bless, Dave

 
FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
Truth101 said:
From your post I will focus more on your first paragraph because I believe there is much to say concerning it which would clear up some of your other replies as well.
Clearly you are then using the words “indefinite” and “eternal” synonymously which does not make for good scholarship.
Click to expand...
Apparently it does, since scholars across the board identify eternality as indicative of endlessness, as I have shown.
In your understanding you could easily replace the word “aionios” with the word “indefinite” or “indefinitely” and still hold to the understanding that all is still eternal although, indefinite duration and eternal duration are not equal.
Click to expand...
This is your own false dichotomy, and you haven't shown it to be so as of yet. As you point out later in your response, eternality also has a connotation of a wonderful quality of life as well as quantity; however, the two are not mutually exclusive by a long shot. Your restriction of aionios to a temporary period opposes Biblical scholarship, plain and simple.
The definition of eternal leaves no room for calculating its duration because it is not limited to time at all while the definition of indefinite is limited to duration but not precisely calculable due to its unpredictability. Either way this is not where the weight of this view is. Each and every individual age or distinct biblical period of time has a beginning and an ending. This is clear in scripture. Since you agree that we are dealing with a succession of ages or periods of time you must also agree that each one has a specific duration from beginning to end but each is not limited to the same length of time. Each has its own “indefinite” duration but does come to an end regardless. They always end and a new one begins.
Furthermore, since you believe that aionios is an indefinite length of time, then you by accurate definition must agree even in your present understanding that this word cannot be defined in any way as timelessness, but really an unpredictable period of time, whether an age or successive ages.
Click to expand...
Again, you're dealing with the denotative, I'm dealing with the connotative. If I say, "It's raining cats and dogs." I don't mean that pets are falling fom the sky; I mean that it is raining heavily. Aionios denotatively refers to an indefinite succession of ages; connotatively the Greeks used this as a reference to endlessness. You continue to deny this, yet still do not answer my question: If aionios is not the Greek word for "endless" or "everlasting", what is?
Now considering the connotative meaning being something more I do agree but not that it is referring to “more time” but rather it is making more of a reference to the kingdom. The elect alone in this age have the earnest (not the fullness of it yet) of the spirit and are experiencing the kingdom even now but are waiting for the redemption of the purchased possession for they alone have been given the understanding of the mystery of His will (Eph 1:9-14). This is what it is to have more of a meaning than just referring to duration.
Click to expand...
As I explained earlier, the quality of eternal life does not exclude the understanding to eternal life as being endless. Again, this issue is you vs. Biblical scholarship. I stand by the scholars that both you and I have cited in understanding the term as Christianity has historically understood it for 2,000 years, and continue to understand it.
By extending the duration beyond that which is given is to miss out on the understanding of Gods complete redemptive plan for all of His creatures. What I am trying to express is that the word aionios has “more” to do with “quality” rather than quantity but carries with it no hint of timelessness and to define it as such is absolutely “absurd”.
Click to expand...
By confining our salvation and God-given life to only one temporary age, you completely miss out on the promise of God to give us life everlastingly.

Just because it is true that our sorrow will be allayed forever does not mean that is what the passage is saying. It is merely saying that our grief will be allayed. It is not expressing for how long because it is assumed in the passage that once given we will no longer have grief. On the other hand the hope that is being hoped for is specific. See below…
Click to expand...
But again, your original point remains unproven. You attempted to use this verse as an example where aionios cannot be understood in an endless context. You have now admitted that God truly does allay our sorrows forever, thus defeating your premise from the get-go.



We are told there is one hope of our calling and that hope is Christ and the
fulfillment of all He has done. We walk in it by faith while in this life but, come the
resurrection we will experience it the fullness with no need to hope for this particular hope.
Click to expand...
The fact that the listed verses refer to one specific hope does not by any means disprove the idea that our salvation will be accompanied by a general feeling of hope for all eternity. Again, the fact that our hope in Christ's return and defeat of evil, etc., will be fulfilled does not mean we will have no other hopes beyond that time. We have no idea what precisely eternity has in store: “ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Corinthians 2:9
Once again, your interpretation unnecesarily restricts the meanings of the words in context.

God is not dealing with future hopes that have not been mentioned in scripture or even hinted at.
Click to expand...
Based on the verse I just quoted, I wouldn't be so sure. ;) Our future life in Christ will be filled with hope, hope of things that we can't even yet conceive in our minds.

FGS

 
FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
Truth101 said:
The Kingdom has existed in the mind of God waiting to become a reality which was Gods whole plan for creation. He is working everything according to the council of his own will to fulfill His plan and purpose for it. The Father has given all things to His son and once fulfilled Christ will give it all back. For everything is of Christ. It is all of Him and through Him and to Him until He gives it up to the Father. The elect are given the knowledge of the kingdom now and are experiencing the kingdom in their lives while in this flesh. Right now it is by faith but that hope and faith will be fulfilled when we experience the resurrection and enter into the fullness of this expectation. My argument is not whether the kingdom is eternal or not. My argument is with Christ’s rule being eternal, which it is not. He puts down all rule and authority so how can He rule and reign once He has put it down?
Click to expand...
Again, it's called "His (Christ's) Kingdom", and the Bible explicitly states that it has no end, a verse and phrase to which you have no response. The fact that Christ turns the Kingdom over to His Father, that God may be all in all, doesn't stop Christ from being eternally the same yesterday, today, and forever. If He is King today, He is King forever. If God will be all in all, that means Christ, as God, will be all in all.
Tit 1:2 (CLNT)in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,
2Tim 1:9 (CLNT) Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,
Click to expand...
LOL. Wait a minute. Did you not just object to the interpretation of aionios as everlasting because certain Bible verses employ the phrase "before times aionios"? Now, when I ask for verses referencing eternality, you use two verses with the phrase "before times aionion." By your argument earlier, neither of these verses can refer to everlasting life because something cannot be before an everlasting period of time. The contradiction in your interpretations here is immensely obvious. You cannot have both ways.
The word immortal which speaks of deathlessness is another hint at a literal forever since those who become immortal never die.
Click to expand...
The Greek word translated "immortal" in English is the Greek aphthartos, and is actually translated more commonly as "incorruptible," because it actually indicates something that is undecaying. The opposite in Greek is phtheiro, which means to shrivel, wither, spoil, etc. A few pertinent verses using the term and related words are:
"If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy (phtheiro) him..." 1 Cor. 3:17
"But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish (phtheiro) in their own corruption," 2 Peter 2:12
If you take aphthartos to indicate everlasting life, then logically you must take its opposite as everlasting death or destruction. This, of course, once again defeats your universalist beliefs.

FGS
 
T

Truth101

Member
Hi, Fereverentgodseeker: I will quote and reply to your questions and comments from your last post here although I am getting the impression we will not agree no matter how long or how deep we are to sink into this area of discussion. At the end of my reply I will offer a different angle of addressing the issue of eternal torment vs the salvation of all men. Ferverentgodseeker said:
Again, you're dealing with the denotative, I'm dealing with the connotative. If I say, "It's raining cats and dogs." I don't mean that pets are falling fom the sky; I mean that it is raining heavily. Aionios denotatively refers to an indefinite succession of ages; connotatively the Greeks used this as a reference to endlessness. You continue to deny this, yet still do not answer my question: If aionios is not the Greek word for "endless" or "everlasting", what is?
Click to expand...
As I have shown I have dealt with the denotative and connotative meanings but you cannot see what it is I am stating. The denotative meaning is refering to an age to a succession of ages while the connotative meaning is refering to more of a quality of life (or death) in the limits of these successive ages. They are both apparent in the scholarship from which I approach it which I believe to be the correct approach as it falls directly in line with the nature and character of God who IS LOVE not merely capable of it.
To answer your question "If aionios is not the Greek word for endless or everlasting, what is?"You have repeatedly made reference to the scholars I have quoted as agreeing with you but this is not so. If they did I would not be able to turn to them for assistance in answering your question.
The Interpreter’s Dictionry of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643): Time: The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life," then "age," "lifetime."
The O.T and the N.T are NOT acquainted with the concept of eternity as timelessness. there is no one word in the old or new testament which can be defined as timelessness.
Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament (Vol. IV, p. 59). The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting.’ Anionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.
Enduring through or pertaining to a period of time, not endlessness. This is the part you are missing. You have admitted this yourself but then you have gone as far as extending these periods of time forever but the problem with your scholarship is that there are certian events in each age (of the successive ages) that do not and will not repeat themselves. The ruling and reigning with Christ will not last forever but the kingdom will (we have established this already). Since the ruling and reigning with christ will end is it not at all possible (I say this for your benifit) that the lake of fire is temporal in the sence that these will recieve their JUST punishment which will be as temporal as our ruling and reigning with Christ but the effects of this punishment (as the effects of the kingdom) will live on through God being ALL in ALL?
FerverentGodseeker said:
By confining our salvation and God-given life to only one temporary age, you completely miss out on the promise of God to give us life everlastingly.
Click to expand...
Your are mistaken that I am missing out as I understand fully the promises of God, infact, I see it through to its finality of God being all in all of His creatures. This is what is called the greater hope. Salvation is not temporary but the process in which it is attained is temporary which I am trying to help you understand. The trials and tribulation we as believers experience here on earth are temporal just as the wrath and indignation of non believers will be temporal. Both have a purpose and that purpose will be seen in due time. Everyman in his own order. It all comes by the work of the cross. Jesus is the ressurection, the first and the second and both have their purpose of reconcilliating the whole world to God the Father.
Ferverentgodseeker said:
But again, your original point remains unproven. You attempted to use this verse as an example where aionios cannot be understood in an endless context. You have now admitted that God truly does allay our sorrows forever, thus defeating your premise from the get-go.
Click to expand...
Please understand this: Everything is being done in a proper order all the way up untill you read in scripture "1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Now what will happen before God the Father will be all in all? ALL things will be subdued unto the Son. Once ALL things are in subjection to the Son, the Son also shall be subject to the Father who first put ALL things under Him and then and only then will God the Father be ALL IN ALL. So all thing up till this point of God being all in all are all temporal means to an end, including the hope of such an end.....
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature (all mankind) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God (the saved).
Rom 8:20 For the creature (all mankind) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him (God) who hath subjected thesame in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation (all mankind) groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they,(not only all mankind) but ourselves also,( those who are overcoming) which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, towit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
This hope that is hoped for, is only hoped for until we see the end of it. Once we see it why would we still yet hope for it. It cannot get any clearer than that.

Ferverentgodseeker said:
Based on the verse I just quoted, I wouldn't be so sure. ;) Our future life in Christ will be filled with hope, hope of things that we can't even yet conceive in our minds.
Click to expand...
As I said before God has not revealed any future hope we MAY have. He is giving us a present hope which is to be hoped for now. This is not rocket science. God is not dealing with future eternal hopes and fears which MAY exist after His completed plan of salvation. We are told specifically of the hope we are to hope for now. There is no mention at all of any other event to be hoped for. The scripture says "eye hath not seen nor ear heard". What part of that is so hard to comprehend? In other words deal with what God has given you to deal with now. This is not speaking of future hopes since He has not given us any specific hope to hope for in this verse. You see we have heard by ear the things we should be hoping for that will be fullfilled. This verse is not specifying or telling us what other hope their will be. The end result of this argument falls flat because our ears have not been inclined anywhere to hope. We have hope now of things we have heard and once these hopes are fullfilled the hope itself will end. So the question still goes unanswered "are we to hope for this hope which our ears have heard forever?".
I would like to move on to the scriptural moral issues which are in question concerning the doctrine of eternal torment as I think we have exhausted this avenue of discussion. Please let me know what you think.
God bless, Dave
 
T

Truth101

Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
Again, it's called "His (Christ's) Kingdom", and the Bible explicitly states that it has no end, a verse and phrase to which you have no response. The fact that Christ turns the Kingdom over to His Father, that God may be all in all, doesn't stop Christ from being eternally the same yesterday, today, and forever. If He is King today, He is King forever. If God will be all in all, that means Christ, as God, will be all in all.
Click to expand...
It is His (Christ's) Kingdom for the present time until it is given up to the Father, period.
Ferverentgodseeker said:
LOL. Wait a minute. Did you not just object to the interpretation of aionios as everlasting because certain Bible verses employ the phrase "before times aionios"? Now, when I ask for verses referencing eternality, you use two verses with the phrase "before times aionion." By your argument earlier, neither of these verses can refer to everlasting life because something cannot be before an everlasting period of time. The contradiction in your interpretations here is immensely obvious. You cannot have both ways.
Click to expand...
You missed the very point for my quoting these. Listen carefully "BEFORE times aionion. That is my exact point There is no time before eternity so, how can there be "BEFORE times aionion"? "Before times eternity"? "Before times everlasting"? "Before times forever"? None of these make sense and proper grammar demands that aionion cannot be implying timelessness in these verses. Do you finally see why I used these verses? The point is, there is no one word in all of scripture to imply timelessness. These verses answer both of your questions. These verses are used to speak of "before there was time, hence aionion is a space of time that before times aionion there was no time (eternity). Times aionion is contrasted here with timelessness ie: Before times aionion. Not during aionion (your definition "eternity") but before aionion. Do you understand? Because you missed my point your obvious contradiction is apparent. You would like it both ways but you cannot have it both ways. Before times aionion means what was before aionios times. Aionios times were created because God not being limited to time has given us time which is our limitation. All Gods plans and purposes will be concluded in the time frame of aionios times. After aionios times, when God is all in all, we will have aionios times no more. The consumation is the completion and conclusion of the aionios plan and purpose of God to be in the end "ALL IN ALL".
Ferverentgodseeker said:
The Greek word translated "immortal" in English is the Greek aphthartos, and is actually translated more commonly as "incorruptible," because it actually indicates something that is undecaying. The opposite in Greek is phtheiro, which means to shrivel, wither, spoil, etc. A few pertinent verses using the term and related words are:
"If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy (phtheiro) him..." 1 Cor. 3:17
"But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish (phtheiro) in their own corruption," 2 Peter 2:12
If you take aphthartos to indicate everlasting life, then logically you must take its opposite as everlasting death or destruction. This, of course, once again defeats your universalist beliefs.
Click to expand...
Not exactly, you are just presupposing that only the elect recieve a glorified body. These glorified bodies we must agree will never die and are no more affected by physical decay or pain or disease. As I said before Jesus IS THE RESURRECTION. Do you assume He is only the first resurrection? Would He not of neccessity be also the second? It is an obvious truth that Jesus is both the first resurrection and the second resurrection as there is no raising up from the dead except through Christ. Whether raised to be purified by fire or as you believe raised to be tormented in fire for all eternity would require a glorified body that will never decay or rot or BURN to the point of being utterly connsumed otherwise what would be left to burn for all eternity. Either way you are left with a paradoxal, catch 22 theology.

God Bless, Dave

 
B

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said….It is by the foolishness of preaching (teaching) that one hears the truth yet it is by the annointing of the spirit that we gain understanding. It must be heard before it can be understood but if we close our ears and assign mans wisdom to everything that is spoken we will never learn. The apostles preached the word and the scribes and pharasees obviously didnt trustthem either.

t truth101 said…. didn’t say teaching (Greek word didasko meaning to teach) as you erroneously inserted.
1Cor. 1:21
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The verse you quoted it’s the word preaching not teaching (Greek word kerugma meaning to proclaim, to publish a message)

If the Holy Spirit wanted to use the word teaching (Greek word didasko meaning to teach) as you erroneously inserted. He would have.

This is how you come to your false conclusions because you don’t know how God uses words.

The Fact that there are verses that God uses the word teaching and preaching in the same sentence further proves my point that these words are different and connote different meanings and thus will render different interpretations.

This once again shows how carelessly you handle the Bible.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top