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Isaiah 53:8.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
In the Isaiah 53:9 thread, Tumah brought up the issue of Isaiah 53:8, specifically the sentence, "For the transgression of my people he was stricken" (KJV):

מִפֶּ֥שַׁע עַמִּ֖י נֶ֥גַע לָֽמוֹ

Tumah points out, correctly, that since the pronoun למו which implies that "he was stricken" נגע is actually a plural pronoun, it would seem to suggest "they" were stricken, lending itself to the idea that Isaiah 53 is speaking of the nation as the suffering servant rather than a singular suffering servant such as is found in the King James translation/interpretation.

Nevertheless, grammatically speaking, the KJV can be seen as a correct translation since the word "stricken" is in the singular, and in Hebrew, a plural noun must take a plural verb form. "For the transgression of my people, for them, was the strike [administered]." The plural pronoun must be speaking of "my people" while the singular verb must refer back to he who, in the previous statement, was said to be cut off from the living (by means of the strike).

These grammatical points were noted in the Isaiah 53:9 thread. So that's not the point of this thread. This thread was intended to show why the national suffering servant interpretation of Deutero-Isaiah is extremely problematic. And just this one verse can be seen to be the poster-child for the problematic nature of the national suffering servant interpretation, as can be seen by cross-referencing (so to say) the statement here (53:8) to its parallels in other places.



John
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
Like I told you in the other thread, נגע is a noun here, not a verb. It is pronounced nega', not naga'. It doesn't need to be plural. It says, "a strike [was struck] to them". Repeating your mistake in another thread isn't going to make you correct.

Anyway, your lack of understanding of Hebrew grammar shines through again. Assuming it was a verb, it's spelled in the active form, so it would be connected to the word עמי (my nation) which is a singular noun as they are the one's doing the striking. So it would be saying, "from the sins of my nation, [he (ie. my nation)] struck to them"

If you want to find the word in a passive singular (ie. stricken), you can look to verse 5 where you will find the word נגוע - stricken.

tl;dr
You don't know Hebrew or Hebrew grammar. Stop making stuff up.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Like I told you in the other thread, נגע is a noun here, not a verb. It is pronounced nega', not naga'. It doesn't need to be plural. It says, "a strike [was struck] to them". Repeating your mistake in another thread isn't going to make you correct.

. . . If I wanted to be flippant, I'd ask you what's the difference between nega' and naga' so far as the consonants are concerned? I assume they look like this:

נגע
vs.
נגע

They're identical. It's only the Masoretic points, i.e., the Jewish interpretation pasted over the consonants, that changes naga' to nega'.

Do you see why the Masoretes were so brilliant, and the Christians so stupid. If you take the Jewish interpretation, and place it on the consonants, such that people who know nothing about language assume the points are part of the sacred text, then ignorant Christians scratch their heads wondering why the text seems to justify the very interpretation that got Jesus killed?

You can't place a Jewish interpretation over the consonants and pretend that that's the only way the text can be read. That in itself should bring ill repute on the particular interpretation being interpolated over the freedom of the consonant text?

The Masoretic points were added hundreds of years after Isaiah was written to codify the Jewish interpretation of the text (by adding punctuation that makes the text read the way the Jewish interpretation wants it to read). That Christians generally don't know this, at this stage in the game, is literally unbelievable. That many Christians are unaware that the Masoretic points are interpretive, and not part of the signature text, is almost beyond belief. It gives Jews an unquestioned tool of dis-ingenuousness and faux authority that is quite incredible.

Remove the Masoretes' interpretation of the text, and there is no authority to saying naga' is nega'. . . Which is why I came prepared to prove the point of this thread without reference to whether the word is naga' or nega'.



John
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
. . . If I wanted to be flippant, I'd ask you what's the difference between nega' and naga' so far as the consonants are concerned? I assume they look like this:

נגע
vs.
נגע

They're identical. It's only the Masoretic points, i.e., the Jewish interpretation pasted over the consonants, that changes naga' to nega'.

Do you see why the Masoretes were so brilliant, and the Christians so stupid. If you take the Jewish interpretation, and place it on the consonants, such that people who know nothing about language assume the points are part of the sacred text, then ignorant Christians scratch their heads wondering why the text seems to justify the very interpretation that got Jesus killed?

You can't place a Jewish interpretation over the consonants and pretend that that's the only way the text can be read. That in itself should bring repute on the particular interpretation being interpolated over the freedom of the consonant text?

The Masoretic points were added hundreds of years after Isaiah was written to codify the Jewish interpretation of the text (by adding punctuation that makes the text read the way the Jewish interpretation wants it to read). That Christians generally don't know this, at this stage in the game, is literally unbelievable.

Remove the Masoretes' interpretation of the text, and there is no authority to saying naga' is nega'.

Which is why I came prepared to prove the point of this thread without reference to whether the word is naga' or nega;.



John
Apparently though, you didn't read my entire post because I addressed interpreting it as a verb and showing how it still doesn't substantiate your claim.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
If you want to find the word in a passive singular (ie. stricken), you can look to verse 5 where you will find the word נגוע - stricken.

Verse 5 justifies the KJV interpretation of verse 8. Why is it clearly singular in verse 5? ------Furthermore, the vav added to נגע is not part of the signature text. It's an invention added to the text hundreds of years after the signature text. Which implies, as I've said, that the grammar is very flexible in the signature text.

Which is why I'm prepared to prove the falseness of the national suffering servant interpretation of Deutero-Isaiah without recourse to grammar.


John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Apparently though, you didn't read my entire post because I addressed interpreting it as a verb and showing how it still doesn't substantiate your claim.

. . . Verse 5 is a parallel to verse 8 and it makes it clear that the text is speaking of a singular suffering servant. As I pointed out, interpreting it as a verb in verse 8 links it to "He was cut off from the land of the living." By means of having been struck.

For he was cut off [masculine singular] from the land of the living: For the transgressions of my people, for them, stricken.

This is justified by verse 5:

But he [masculine singular] was wounded [masculine singular] for our transgressions, he was bruised [masculine singular] for our iniquites: The chastisement of our peace was upon him [masculine singular]; And with his stripes [singular] we are healed.

This is clearly a parallel construction speaking of the same personage and it's masculine singular all the way.

But, as I've said, I don't need grammar to prove the point. There are too many parallel verses that make the singular suffering servant a foregone conclusion. There are parallel verses that make the national suffering servant interpretation literally impossible.


John
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Verse 5 justifies the KJV interpretation of verse 8. Why is it clearly singular in verse 5? ------Furthermore, the vav added to נגע is not part of the signature text. It's an invention added to the text hundreds of years after the signature text. Which implies, as I've said, that the grammar is very flexible in the signature text.

Which is why I'm prepared to prove the falseness of the national suffering servant interpretation of Deutero-Isaiah without recourse to grammar.


John
No, the vav i part of the text and if you'd like to say otherwise, you're going to have to prove it.

Here's the DSS:
is535.png



I think I've already made my point and proven that you're making things up to suit yourself without having adequate knowledge of the subject matter. You ret-con theology into the text to alter meaning and state your eisegetic interpretations as exegesis. I'm pretty sure that for these two threads of yours, the reader will be able to understand our position and why yours isn't valid. You've gotten enough attention for your craziness from me for now.

Have a good...whatever it is that you do when your not posting this ridiculous garbage.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
No, the vav i part of the text and if you'd like to say otherwise, you're going to have to prove it.

Here's the DSS:
View attachment 22524


I think I've already made my point and proven that you're making things up to suit yourself without having adequate knowledge of the subject matter. You ret-con theology into the text to alter meaning and state your eisegetic interpretations as exegesis. I'm pretty sure that for these two threads of yours, the reader will be able to understand our position and why yours isn't valid. You've gotten enough attention for your craziness from me for now.

Have a good...whatever it is that you do when your not posting this ridiculous garbage.

. . . Fwiw, the vav seems to be superfluous since the root word is the word without the vav. Usually this means the vav is being used as a vowel (and vavs are used as vowels). A search of the word with the vav seems to imply it means the same thing as without the vowel.

It's still treated as a masculine singular in verse 4 (KJV) suggesting the vav is superfluous?.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
These grammatical points were noted in the Isaiah 53:9 thread. So that's not the point of this thread. This thread was intended to show why the national suffering servant interpretation of Deutero-Isaiah is extremely problematic. And just this one verse can be seen to be the poster-child for the problematic nature of the national suffering servant interpretation, as can be seen by cross-referencing (so to say) the statement here (53:8) to its parallels in other places.


As translated in the KJV, Isaiah 53:8 implies that the suffering servant receives his greatest blow, or strike (causing death), for the sake of the sins of the nation of Israel; their transgressions are the cause of the death of a righteous man. He's judged for their transgressions; one of which, perhaps, is the transgressive nature of his very judgment?

But that's all old hatan. ---What's new to this study is the correction of the word found in 53:9 במתיו that's errantly translated "death" or "deaths." The word means "shrine." The nature of the strike received by the sufferer results in his becoming a shrine for the Holy Spirit; a "high place" where prayers, supplication, and the hope of salvation is directed.

As can be seen throughout Isaiah, he has a particular shrine in mind when he writes what he wrote at 53:9:

Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people.---Where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them, who sent his glorious arm of power to be at Moses' right hand . . ..

Isaiah 63:11-12.​

What, who, specifically, is this "glorious arm of power" that's central to understanding the spirit of Deutero-Isaiah? What precisely is Isaiah referencing in a manner dictating that any reasonable exegete must center this image as the gravity around which the rest of Isaiah’s prophesy revolves?

Nehushtan. A hand-held shrine constructed from Moses' serpent rod.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:14-15.​

The Apostle John, justifying the premise of this study, claims that the shrine, in Isaiah 53:9, constructed and consecrated when the suffering servant comes under the judgement of Israel, will, get this, be lifted up as a hand-held shrine just like the one Moses lifted in the desert. . . It's the latter part of John's statement that's most remarkable. He claims that whosoever looks at the shrine and believes, will be saved.

The Talmud, as read by Rabbi Ellie Munk, asks how a copper snake could control life and death (Rosh Hashanah 29a). To quote Rabbi Munk, "The answer given is that when the Israelites raised their eyes to Hashem they were healed. . . when the people looked at the serpent at the top of the pole and held the thought that Hashem alone could cause a wound or its healing, then the healing soon followed." -----The wording is interesting in that Rabbi Munk, speaking for the Talmud, seems to echo John 3:14-15. -----The Israelites were raising their eyes to Hashem when they peered at the hand-held shrine. The Talmud is suggesting the serpent on the pole was designed to get the Israelites to cast their gaze toward Hashem. They’re healed by gazing up at Hashem.

In 2 Kings 18:4 we're told the Israelites gave the salvific-branch-shrine a personal name, “Nehushtan.” They used the shrine pretty much as Christian's use the crucifix. As a salvific-emblem where prayers, supplications, and the hopes for salvation are directed toward God.

In a bizarre echo from the Gospels, after explaining that the Israelites were worshiping at the salvific-shrine, Nehushtan, the very next statement (2 Kings 18:5) reads : "He trusted in Hashem, the Hashem of Israel." . . . The Gospel documents that when they looked up at Jesus hanging on the cross the Israelites said: "He trusted in Hashem; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God" (Matthew 27:43).

Jewish exegetes will say that 2 Kings 18:5 is speaking of Hezekiah (Hezekiah trusted Hashem), who, Hezekiah, the passage claims crucified Nehustan because Jews were seeking it out as the means of salvation and contact with God. Hezekiah's attitude toward Nehushtan was like some latter-day priest's attitude toward Jesus of Nazareth.

But the passage claims the one who trusted in Hashem was, get this, the greatest king of Judah of all time. None were greater before him, and none will be after him. ----This is speaking of Messiah (no other king is greater than David). -----And it's why Rashi, Redak, and many Jewish sages claim other messianic passages in Isaiah are speaking of Hezekiah, rather than Messiah. They transpose the statement speaking of Nehushtan, the salvific-shrine, which we now know to be the messianic-salvific-shrine of Isaiah 53:9, with Hezekiah, who actually destroyed the messianic-salvific-shrine, in a manner that received, and still receives, lauds and applauds, from Pharisaical Jews and their modern Jewish religion.

The prophet Isaiah literally witnessed the crucifixion of Nehustan. He saw the destruction of Nehustan.

Some of the best exegetes and historians of the Tanakh have remarked on the supernatural abilities of Isaiah to seemingly presage the spirit of the Gospels so many years before its direct manifestation. The pathos of this almost Delphic ability to channel the future, an ability verging on the pathological, is the fact that Isaiah is the only prophet allowed to witness the crucifixion of Nehushtan at the hands of the sacrilegious and religion fevered rulers over Israel.

Since Nehushtan was a visible manifestation of the invisible God, the destruction of Nehushtan was the crucifixion of the visible manifestation of the invisible God.

Ironically, the same cast of characters found in the Gospel account of the crucifixion of the visible manifestation of the invisible God, the sanctimonious and sacrilegious rulers of Israel, destroy Nehushtan, the ancient crucifix, precisely as their latter day offspring mimic them at the crucifixion of the living manifestation of Nehushtan. -----Isaiah is the only writer in the Tanakh to witness the crucifixion of the visible manifestation of God, the portable theophany in Moses’ hand. Isaiah was privileged not only to witness this preemptive strike against the Branch, but also to provide an eye-witness account --- an oracular prophesy--- of an event that wouldn’t occur for many hundreds of years.

Deutero-Isaiah is drenched in the blood of Nehushtan such that only through a conspiracy concocted by the same people who destroyed Nehushtan could any person possibly ignore the fact that Isaiah saw, in the destruction of Nehushtan, which he personally witnessed, the death of the One Nehushtan only symbolized, the One spoken of in Isaiah 53, who is given the same blow Hezekiah gave Nehushtan, in order to become the universal emblem that is the messianic-salvific-shrine, par פאר excellent תפארת.



John

 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe since Jesus is God then the plural makes sense as in Elohim. For it to be about a nation then there has to be some reference and there isn't any. The only way the nation of Israel shows up is in the phrase "my people."
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Like I told you in the other thread, נגע is a noun here, not a verb. It is pronounced nega', not naga'. It doesn't need to be plural. It says, "a strike [was struck] to them". Repeating your mistake in another thread isn't going to make you correct.

Anyway, your lack of understanding of Hebrew grammar shines through again. Assuming it was a verb, it's spelled in the active form, so it would be connected to the word עמי (my nation) which is a singular noun as they are the one's doing the striking. So it would be saying, "from the sins of my nation, [he (ie. my nation)] struck to them"

If you want to find the word in a passive singular (ie. stricken), you can look to verse 5 where you will find the word נגוע - stricken.

tl;dr
You don't know Hebrew or Hebrew grammar. Stop making stuff up.

I believe that makes no sense at all.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
. . . If I wanted to be flippant, I'd ask you what's the difference between nega' and naga' so far as the consonants are concerned? I assume they look like this:

נגע
vs.
נגע

They're identical. It's only the Masoretic points, i.e., the Jewish interpretation pasted over the consonants, that changes naga' to nega'.

Do you see why the Masoretes were so brilliant, and the Christians so stupid. If you take the Jewish interpretation, and place it on the consonants, such that people who know nothing about language assume the points are part of the sacred text, then ignorant Christians scratch their heads wondering why the text seems to justify the very interpretation that got Jesus killed?

You can't place a Jewish interpretation over the consonants and pretend that that's the only way the text can be read. That in itself should bring ill repute on the particular interpretation being interpolated over the freedom of the consonant text?

The Masoretic points were added hundreds of years after Isaiah was written to codify the Jewish interpretation of the text (by adding punctuation that makes the text read the way the Jewish interpretation wants it to read). That Christians generally don't know this, at this stage in the game, is literally unbelievable. That many Christians are unaware that the Masoretic points are interpretive, and not part of the signature text, is almost beyond belief. It gives Jews an unquestioned tool of dis-ingenuousness and faux authority that is quite incredible.

Remove the Masoretes' interpretation of the text, and there is no authority to saying naga' is nega'. . . Which is why I came prepared to prove the point of this thread without reference to whether the word is naga' or nega'.



John

I believe if one must choose between two different words one must go by context.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I believe since Jesus is God then the plural makes sense as in Elohim. For it to be about a nation then there has to be some reference and there isn't any. The only way the nation of Israel shows up is in the phrase "my people."

. . . There are places in Deutero-Isaiah where the nation is spoken of parallel to the singular suffering-servant. There's cause for Jews to interpret it as the nation. But there's also sound exegetical reasons why there's a singular servant and a national servant. It's important to distinguish between the two.

Judaism can't distinguish between the two since to do so implies that the Gentiles recognize the singular suffering-servant before the nation of Israel does. But that justifies the history of the Church, which is a history rejected by Judaism.

Acquiescence to the fact that Jesus is the suffering-servant of Isaiah 53, and the "shrine" of 53:9, is the key to interpreting Isaiah correctly. Reject the fact that the suffering-servant has come, been rejected by the national servant, and it's a foregone conclusion that the national servant is going to have to interpret Isaiah using a weak exegesis that doesn't try too hard to unify all the disparate elements of the great prophesy.

Better to fancy Isaiah a great poet, and his writings too layered and oracular for interpretation, than accept the unthinkable, that in Nehushtan, Isaiah saw a messianic-God, and that in Hezekiah, he saw the latter day Pharisees. And that in Hezekiah's religious denunciation and destruction of Nehushtan Isaiah saw the plight of God's suffering-servant at the hands of religiously misled members of the national servants of God.

A new truth that claims to be more than a heretofore unrecognized aspect of, or conclusion from, an old truth ceases to be truth and enters the realm of fantasy and delusion. God has laid down in the world of creation and in the revelation of the Torah all the truths that man is capable of perceiving; there are none other beside them. [They are, i.e., the Torah's revelations] . . . a potent seed which bears within it the future.

The Hirsch Chumash, Shemos, p. 590.​

Without a proper attitude toward, and interpretation of, Isaiah, Judaism has a legitimate claim that the Gospels present a new truth based mostly on the realm of fantasy and delusion. That's what's at stake in keeping Isaiah's mouth shut, and his prophesy sealed up. If his prophesy is freed from the pointy addendum added by the Masoretes, Isaiah becomes the link between the Gospels and the Pentateuch that will be so devastating to modern Judaism's attitude toward the Gospels that it will turn the religious world literally upside down.

There's a genuine sense in which Nehushtan is the central symbol in the Tanakh. Nehushtan is the link between the Tanakh and the Pentateuch, as well as the Pentateuch and the Gospels. Pull the orlah off of Nehushtan, circumcise Nehushtan, and you'll be looking squarely into the Face of Hashem. Salvation will follow close behind.



John

 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I believe if one must choose between two different words one must go by context.

The words are identical. It's the Masoretic points added to the words that determine whether the word means this or that. But the Masoretic points were added hundreds of years after the signature text such that the Masoretes determined, within their own interpretive zeitgeist, what they think Isaiah meant with the word.

Sound exegesis can show any honest and willing examiner, even a Jewish examiner, that the Masoretes were incorrect in what they think many words were intended to mean.

Because the Masoretic points are added to the Masoretic text, many persons not familiar with Hebrew assume that the Masoretic text is the authoritative statement of the authors of the Tanakh. That's not true. A particular (and sometimes peculiar) Jewish interpretation (hundreds of years newer than the original text) has been placed over the signature text (as the points), as though it were part of the signature text, so that Christians have been using this Jewish interpretation for thousands of years as though it was the signature text.

We're thousands of years late in knowing precisely who Jesus is, and how the Church relates to Israel, primarily because of the blind acceptance of the Masoretic text as authoritative and sacred.

No sacred scroll in any synagogue throughout the world has the Masoretic points on the text. Jews are fully aware that the Masoretic points aren't part of the signature text. But it serves their purpose, as the purported chosen ones, to allow non-Jews to treat the Masoretic text as the authoritative signature of the writers of the Tanakh.

As I've said before, the ploy is devilishly deceptive, and actually quite brilliant really.



John
 
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