BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Whether I spend eternity in Heaven or Hell doesn't matter?
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God talking
- Thread starter Unveiled Artist
- Start date
Whether I spend eternity in Heaven or Hell doesn't matter?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Take out catholism. Thats blinding you severely.I own no gold, no bibles, no crufixes, and no weekly mass. Im catholic by sacrament not by belief and Mass; crucial difference if you understood it.
Salvation is an act. An act is something you do. Its an action, a verb. Jesus didnt just sit at the side lines, he actually was killed and actually died on the cross. Your line of thinking makes jesus passion merely spiritual.
Salvation is an act: a lifestyle. Its not a act of repentence. You repentence once to ask for salvation and again to keep right with god. Salvation is keeping that line so you wont be judged by your works but by the promise you receive from christ by the works you do for him. Works isnt righteous. Its specifically for and from god/christ.
I know gold blinds you. Take baptist. They disagree with works. Spit at it. Yet, they help many of people come to christ and in places Ive been early in life, help with social needs of others and basicslly do gods "work." Whats so ironic is, they consider work evil but still work to please god.
Mass: Body of christ/people brothers and sisters of christ
Confirmation: asking jesus to be lord and savior by mouth
Communion: worship as one body (more than one, I am present)
Baptism: being born again by spirit god
Confession: repenting to GOD only
Unless you are blinded by words, where are these not in the bible?
I stand behind my doctrinal beliefs because they come from Christ's words, recorded in the Bible. Heaven and Hell are on the line IMO.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I does your comments relate to what I said?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Yes, because I didn't want to feel we had to debate over many of your points, which seemed philosophical, since I cannot find them in scripture.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Thats why we go deeper to use scripture. One sentence comments throws me off and I forget what we were discussing.
You'd have to show what Im saying is opposed to scriptures. I mean, I can find every other problem and advice in The Dharma because it has over thousand scriptures and we only have a handful.
The bible doesnt have that many pages; so, you'd have to actually communicate what you get from scripture in a more conversant manner.
Its not that we are deviating from scripture because we dont quote it black and red. It means we have brains to put together words without needing to cite every other parapraph. Its not an english paper.
I can cite everything I say from the bible, but as an artist
sometimes I like to think for myself. That, and every time I post scripture, its ignored rather than discussed anyway. Becomes a waste of time actually putting together scriptures to have them set aside as if I just threw them up just because. At The Church, thats what devotion is: a 'personal' relation-ship with christ. Its putting down the books and talking to christ. (Using the church for context and example only. Its not church doctrine to not use the bible). I see that more healthier in christian relationship with christ.
Less quoting scripture, more quoting christ. If christ is in you, that shouldnt be too much a problem? Or do you need scripture to talk to christ?
Do you have scriptures opposed to what I say?
Its easy to dismiss what I say because its not in black and red. Id like you to think beyond that. If you can?
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe a person is deluded when he is not thinking rationally. I was thinking rationally.
I believe that might be helpful if those outside people actually knew something but most of them are fumbling in the dark.
I believe you are saying that God does not have human traits and yet Jesus as God in the flesh certainly had them and I am sure there are other instances where God is said to have human traits.
I believe you are saying that there ought to be something that reveals the uniqueness of God but it is my experience that God often speaks in quite common terms. I can think of one Biblical term "Son of Man" which Jesus called Himself. That reflects a Godly view because it is not special to any of us that we are sons of men.
Yes. I believe He speaks in the same voice every time and usually the tone of voice is the same as well.
I believe not.
I believe that is how auditory listening works. I was waiting for God to speak but I had no previous knowledge of how He would answer or even if He would. He did not answer audibly but by a voice entering into my mind in similar fashion to how my own voice would enter into my mind when I am reading. My own voice is a projection of course.
I believe that opinion is based upon a bias.
I believe I do not know what you mean by this. A heart can't make a conversation.
I believe that appears to me to be a non-sequitur.
I believe what you are looking for does not exist. According to the Bible the way to be sure that God has spoken to a person is if a given prophecy comes to pass.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
@Muffled
If there is a god, god would have specific traits that humans do not have, want, or imagine.
If god speaks common place terms, what differentiates it from being a reflection of our minds as humans and being god in his or her own right?
Many if not all people I ask about god's voice say it's not audible, it's a "tiny" voice, it's a whisper, a feeling, sensation, "something" watching their thoughts without being a part of them. It's always a mystic explanation. Can god's voice be described any way outside of mystics? (I wasn't raised around mystic language)
My point perfectly said. I wonder why it's wrong to say that you (people) have something to do with god speaking with you. There's always a "I'm not good enough" type of mindset that makes god greater and human beings limited, type of thing. Never understood that, really. But when in Rome, do what the Romans do.
I don't know which cause of the colors. Most of what we say are based on bias.
Some say "my heart told me this". It's another word for "inner voice, whisper, feeling inside, gut, intuition, love of of god. Not the organ.
It's all about the brain and mind. Anything outside that, I have no clue. The brain and mind defines our heart, emotions, experiences, interpretations, our biases, and culture related stuff, and, pretty much everything we consider spiritual has some reflection of life on earth, environment, physiological experiences, and basically nothing outside one's self.
Nothing super natural. It's all natural. So, if god speaks, unless god is a person's thoughts, I honestly don't see how "he" talks.
If there is a god, god would have specific traits that humans do not have, want, or imagine.
If god speaks common place terms, what differentiates it from being a reflection of our minds as humans and being god in his or her own right?
Many if not all people I ask about god's voice say it's not audible, it's a "tiny" voice, it's a whisper, a feeling, sensation, "something" watching their thoughts without being a part of them. It's always a mystic explanation. Can god's voice be described any way outside of mystics? (I wasn't raised around mystic language)
My point perfectly said. I wonder why it's wrong to say that you (people) have something to do with god speaking with you. There's always a "I'm not good enough" type of mindset that makes god greater and human beings limited, type of thing. Never understood that, really. But when in Rome, do what the Romans do.
I don't know which cause of the colors. Most of what we say are based on bias.
Some say "my heart told me this". It's another word for "inner voice, whisper, feeling inside, gut, intuition, love of of god. Not the organ.
It's all about the brain and mind. Anything outside that, I have no clue. The brain and mind defines our heart, emotions, experiences, interpretations, our biases, and culture related stuff, and, pretty much everything we consider spiritual has some reflection of life on earth, environment, physiological experiences, and basically nothing outside one's self.
Nothing super natural. It's all natural. So, if god speaks, unless god is a person's thoughts, I honestly don't see how "he" talks.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Thats why we go deeper to use scripture. One sentence comments throws me off and I forget what we were discussing.
You'd have to show what Im saying is opposed to scriptures. I mean, I can find every other problem and advice in The Dharma because it has over thousand scriptures and we only have a handful.
The bible doesnt have that many pages; so, you'd have to actually communicate what you get from scripture in a more conversant manner.
Its not that we are deviating from scripture because we dont quote it black and red. It means we have brains to put together words without needing to cite every other parapraph. Its not an english paper.
I can cite everything I say from the bible, but as an artist
At The Church, thats what devotion is: a 'personal' relation-ship with christ. Its putting down the books and talking to christ. (Using the church for context and example only. Its not church doctrine to not use the bible). I see that more healthier in christian relationship with christ.
Less quoting scripture, more quoting christ. If christ is in you, that shouldnt be too much a problem? Or do you need scripture to talk to christ?
Do you have scriptures opposed to what I say?
Its easy to dismiss what I say because its not in black and red. Id like you to think beyond that. If you can?
The Bible "doesn't have that many pages"? It is over 2,000 pages in my English versions.
To answer your question, over 150 verses say "Trust Jesus to be saved," and no verses add repentance, good deeds, good efforts, even saying please or thank you to this all-important Bible doctrine. 150 verses.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I was comparing it to The Dharma (Buddhist scripture) The Bible does not compare at all. The link above is just one percent of it. If that.
Repentance: To believe, you at least need to submit to god and turn from your ways, right?
Good Deeds: So, god wants you to do bad deeds to serve him? Or just stand still and have faith?
Good efforts: So, he wants you to be lazy and just pray all the time with no effort to do anything for him?
I list scriptures; but, I don't think you read them.
You don't have to change your beliefs, but there is a difference in disagreeing and saying something is wrong just because it's not part of your belief system.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Biblical repentance comes from the word "metanoia", meaning to change one's mind. If you met a Hindu who never heard of Jesus, then told them to trust Jesus for salvation and they did, they could return to friends and say, "I'd never heard of Jesus, but when I did, I changed my mind that I can save me, Jesus saved me!" This person would have thus repented.
The traditional view that one needs to "turn from their ways" to be saved is relying on several factors:
1. A misunderstanding of the Greek biblical word for repent, which means to change one's mind/trust, not one's behavior
2. A misunderstanding that God only takes people who try hard to a utopia, rather, he takes people who are absolutely changed to moral perfection, through trusting Jesus
3. A misunderstanding that God judges really bad people to Hell and really bad people to Heaven, rather than admitting only transformed, perfect saints to a perfect Heaven/utopia
There is more to the repentance discussion if you like, including the fact that 150 verses say "Trust Jesus for salvation" and no verses say, "You must repent to be saved." I'm familiar with the verses that are commonly used to disagree with these facts if you'd like to discuss them.
We can also discuss good deeds/good efforts, but I think we 100% agree, God wants His people to do good deeds and make strong efforts. However, if Heaven is a perfect place, only perfect people can be there without ruining it. If I hurt your feelings in this discussion, that alone would ruin a perfect experience in Heaven.
Some churches teach that God has a pair of scales and if good outweighs bad, we get to Heaven. However, biblically speaking, good people go to Hell unless they trust Christ, because Christ died for sin.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I honestly dont see how any lirturgical churches disagree with you.
If your efforts and unrighteous deeds are not a salvational issue, by what reason would god save you if you took advantage of your salvation by not doing anything for him to see why he should give you grace you dont deserve?
I listed a lot of scriptures in my response to outside post. The bible defines works "that dont lead to salvation" as righteous works; works that replace the need for faith. It means that a person uses his tradition only to gain faith in god. Its talking about using works as an idol.
Unrighteous works are not and cannot be serperated from faith (also in the list of scriptures I posted; least twenty of them). They go together. For example, jesus didnt just have faith in his father
He acted in his faith by doing his father's Will.
He didnt just pray, he actually taught by action and saved by action. Christianity isnt a coach-potato faith.
Thats why lurtitigal churches as a whole have works (the unrighteous type) as part of the salvation package, because they believe (as you) works are important, but unlike you, works comes in obedience to their father's will (like jesus) so without it, there is no reason god would want to save them.
Therebis a tiny quote I like (not from scripture): Faith can move mountains, but dont be surprised if god gives you a shovel.
Nothing is free. But no-works believer feel god just hands them salvation. No where in the bible does god save just because. Faith is an action; salvation is an action; love is an action.
Its obedience.
Without understanding that, you can undermine all lirturgical churches in the world but apart from your own perspective and point of view, you wont get it. It takes actual obedience in christ to see why works are necesary
in relationship with not in place of salvational faith
You are talking about the latter. The bible speaks of the former. Dont know how you dont see that without judging peoples salvation based on what you think they do and not what they actually do and why.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I saw these on another thread about someone showing biblical contradictions. You said we can discuss scriptures; so, dont overlook them.
In:
James 2:21 O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless? 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.
Works means obedience to god. Where does it say in the gospels that christians no longer need to obey god?
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Works means actions of faith without righteousness of the self.
Works under the law of abraham were works based on his faith to god not from religious traditions.
Romans 4:13 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13For thepromise that Abraham would be heir of the world was not made to him and his descendants through the Law,but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
14For if those who live by the Law are heirs, faith is useless and the promise is worthless,…
Works is righteousness actions of faith. Without faith, one is basicslly following the "wrong" or outdated law. So faith is needed for one to perform works worthy of god.
Romans 2:12 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the Law will also perishapart from the Law, and all who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law. 13For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous.…
Those who sin apart and under the law will be judged by the law. Its those who act/or do (without sining, of course) of the law, god will declare righteous.
Works has to do with obedience because of faith. Salvation is based on faith with obedience to god. Faith without works are dead.
What works are you talking about?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I understand where you're coming from, but it depends on whether the cross of Christ paid for human sin--the Bible says it did in many hundreds of verses and passages--or whether we pay for sin, and whether grace is merited by deeds. You wrote above:
"...to see why he should give you grace you dont deserve?"
The cross of Christ, the Bible explains in many chapters, is undeserved favor we don't deserve:
From Romans 5:
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
A judge can give a sentence or show mercy. A judge who finds a criminal guilty than pardons the criminal is showing grace. What you're speaking of, if I understand it, is that the free gift isn't free and that grace is a reward, not a gift.
I gave my children gifts when they were 1, 2, 3 years old not for favor or merit but for love's sake. They screamed, peed their pants, stole the toys of others, etc. and got gifts. I never took back their birthday gifts, demanding they show I owe them gifts. Romans 4 puts it this way:
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
Note carefully that it says: to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness
A clear statement that a saved person can have ZERO works but trust God for righteousness, salvation! Although I agree that given some time, faith and God will change a person to doing more good than before, the Bible is clear that only morally perfect people can live in utopia and that this ultimate transformation comes from trusting in Christ's work on the cross (salvation).
Further, you have a clear statement here in Romans 4 and 5 that someone saved on their deathbed, a wicked, horrible person... is saved.
I enjoy attending different churches and have attended several masses in recent years, but I can never be a member of any church that says "I must show God I deserve His gift, so that's it's not really a gift but a WAGE HE OWES ME."
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
The works of James 2 are these:
1) Abraham: Promise to do a human sacrifice but don't do it--His "work" was not to work, he showed people he wouldn't do it
2) Rahab: Be a prostitute who lies to hide people--nowhere in Judges does it show Rahab was obeying God, rather, she said the God of the Israelites scared her into wanting to protect herself and her family in Jericho
James 2 says "Faith without works is dead in it's witness to other people." You have some poor Christians who are lousy witnesses but still go to Heaven, since God, who cannot lie, says in John 3 and 150 other places, "Trust Jesus for salvation".
**
It doesn't say in the Bible, "Christians don't obey God" as you wrote, but it actually does say trusting Christ is all that is required for salvation, not works, specifically saying in Ephesians, for example, NOT OF WORKS, and it does say ZERO WORKS persons are still saved--Romans 4--you have learned a gospel where we look at what people do, not what Christ did, to see who is saved.
**
I agree with 2 Cor, however, God judging Christians in 2 Cor is for reward (or for zero works, lack of reward) but NOT for salvation.
**
The Romans 4 passage you quoted agrees with me 100%:
1) Uncircumcised persons who have NOT obeyed God for circumcision can be saved
2) Even Abraham's promise came from faith/trust, not law/deeds/works/obedience
3) Living by law/deeds/works NULLIFIES blessings from trusting God
**
Romans 1, 2 and 3 establish that ALL are lost without Christ. The one who sins without the Law is judged AND the one who sins but tries to keep the Law is ALSO judged. In Romans 3, we get to Jews and Gentiles are the same, No one seeks for God, does good...
**
There are Bible passages some people find confusing, but there are no Bible contradictions. I cannot be a church member of a place that disagrees with hundreds of scriptures that salvation and keeping salvation--assurance--come from trusting Jesus. No works.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I was relating them to the works conversation. I got it from another thread of someone else pointing out contradictions in the bible. Im not into the bible so much to prove it against itself. Its not my faith.
With works, with the scriptures I posted it seperates righteous works under the law and those works that are no longer needed. It goes on to say works and faith cannot be seperated. So, salvational works isnt about what you do to be saved but what you do in your salvation. Its not something given but something lived.
Salvation is not something given (unless you read the bible verbatum) but something lived. Its a "state" of repentence not asking one time and thats it. Its deeper than just the gift of salvation. Thats a simplification of the christian faith.
It goes deeper.
Which works are you talking about?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I read it all. Somethings that got me
What works are you talking about?
Righteous works -for god- is lived. Its something you do because, through your actions, and faith (as per scriptures I listed) Unless you are just a gospel-person, everything about obedience/faith to god is throughout scripture both in example and in dictation.
You are saved by your faith and in your faith, by works you live it. So, in your salvation is a combination of faith and works (I'd hope). Its a package.
Why would god judge you for your deeds when you dont do anything within your salvational lifestyle?
How do you seperate obedience to god and faith to him?
Im with the Catholics in this. In general, withiut referring to The Church, Id assume god judges them based on deeds they did beforehand. I see it as, since infants cannot give themselves to christ, they die under the law. Someone who is bedridden since birth, cannot give themselves to christ unless christ pardons them for their inability to obey him.
Not at all so who are old enough and able to have faith And obey god. You dont get out of obedience by comparing it to someone who cant do so physically. Thats like telling my boss I cant work at the roller skating rink because my legs were amputated and expect him to pay me as he does his able bodied employees. I can still hage faith but Id be praying to be pardoned because I cant work. Not so with people who have their legs. They cant get out of it by saying "well, she...."
That sounds like a brother saying, "well she did this, I can do it too"
As for gifts fir your kids, depends on parenting. My parent gave gifts as a form of teaching. An infant who hits their mother doesnt "get away" with it. As he grows older, he understands his behavior is just as important as his love for his mother. He then, hopefully, connects his behavior with what his mother has done and would ---want---- to obey his mother.
I had my first big seizure at 12. I went unconscious and shook. I still have seizures 25 years later. My mother, bless her heart, did not ask me to do anything "in order" for her to keep me alive through all my medical issues. I was grateful and did things for her because thats what I was taught. We do things for each other. So, love and faith came from actions.
In the bible, faith isnt just given. The gospels dont stand alone. Its always been an action involved. Its not like a mother or father on earth who gives until their child is holder. Nor is it like a mother pardoning her child without teaching her child correct behaviors.
The god of the bible is not "kind and soft". Unlike parents, he does judges eternity based on your behavior. What you do. You cant say you are saved (or loved by your parent) but do nothing to which god or your parent taught you to do.
Salvational action is something you want to do for god. Its literally an act of thank you and in it, god continues to bless. Salvation is conditional.
But....what do you mean by works?
What works are you talking about?
Righteous works -for god- is lived. Its something you do because, through your actions, and faith (as per scriptures I listed) Unless you are just a gospel-person, everything about obedience/faith to god is throughout scripture both in example and in dictation.
You are saved by your faith and in your faith, by works you live it. So, in your salvation is a combination of faith and works (I'd hope). Its a package.
Why would god judge you for your deeds when you dont do anything within your salvational lifestyle?
How do you seperate obedience to god and faith to him?
Im with the Catholics in this. In general, withiut referring to The Church, Id assume god judges them based on deeds they did beforehand. I see it as, since infants cannot give themselves to christ, they die under the law. Someone who is bedridden since birth, cannot give themselves to christ unless christ pardons them for their inability to obey him.
Not at all so who are old enough and able to have faith And obey god. You dont get out of obedience by comparing it to someone who cant do so physically. Thats like telling my boss I cant work at the roller skating rink because my legs were amputated and expect him to pay me as he does his able bodied employees. I can still hage faith but Id be praying to be pardoned because I cant work. Not so with people who have their legs. They cant get out of it by saying "well, she...."
That sounds like a brother saying, "well she did this, I can do it too"
As for gifts fir your kids, depends on parenting. My parent gave gifts as a form of teaching. An infant who hits their mother doesnt "get away" with it. As he grows older, he understands his behavior is just as important as his love for his mother. He then, hopefully, connects his behavior with what his mother has done and would ---want---- to obey his mother.
I had my first big seizure at 12. I went unconscious and shook. I still have seizures 25 years later. My mother, bless her heart, did not ask me to do anything "in order" for her to keep me alive through all my medical issues. I was grateful and did things for her because thats what I was taught. We do things for each other. So, love and faith came from actions.
In the bible, faith isnt just given. The gospels dont stand alone. Its always been an action involved. Its not like a mother or father on earth who gives until their child is holder. Nor is it like a mother pardoning her child without teaching her child correct behaviors.
The god of the bible is not "kind and soft". Unlike parents, he does judges eternity based on your behavior. What you do. You cant say you are saved (or loved by your parent) but do nothing to which god or your parent taught you to do.
Salvational action is something you want to do for god. Its literally an act of thank you and in it, god continues to bless. Salvation is conditional.
But....what do you mean by works?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I'm speaking of any works you or I might try to use to gain salvation or keep it, since you wrote above "Salvation is not something given (unless you read the bible verbatim)".
Salvation is a gift in Romans 6 and other places. If you will not read the Bible verbatim, how do you know what Jesus and the apostles said about salvation?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
By works, I'm referring to keeping any part of any Old or New Testament law or precept, or obedience, or the work of repentance, or anything that says we can add to Christ's work on the cross, earning salvation, rather than receiving it as a free gift.
I will not be in Heaven saying I earned Heaven because I'm good, I will be praising the Savior. What salvation are we discussing where it wasn't completed by a Savior, Jesus?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I addressed these four passages in depth for us in a post I made Friday.
Thanks.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe there are several but that doesn't necessarily mean they show up at a personal communication level.
I believe because it is God. If you are speaking to someone how do you know they are not saying something from your mind? After all your mind is receiving the words.
I believe I am not everyone else and I have already described it for you.
I don't believe so.
I don't believe I say that. Of course the person is involved. The person must enter into a spiritually receptive state and then understand what has been said.
I do my best not to make biased statements. However I do try to fit things in with what I already have perceived.
I believe the heart stands for what we love. I believe that is simply an established part of our will except some hearts are pretty fickle. I am reminded of the statement of Jesus. Where your heart is you will be also. So if I love to go to Bingo I will be found at the Bingo hall (If I have the money). However the will is still supreme and I can tell my heart to bug off and do what is rational instead. However the heart does not speak which suggests that it comes from the psyche.
I believe that is your experience but it is not mine.