Women's head covering in Abrahamic belief systems.

If I am content in my belief in the Creator, I am free to allow others to practice their own.

A.C. Simon said:

I wouldn’t think God would judge that church because the women don’t wear head covering when they pray or prophesy; unless to lead them to it. But from not obeying, that in it self causes consequences or at least lack of benefit; since the reason God tells us to do something is for our benefit, and it seems here in this tradition, that it has to do something with the angels.

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Well, I am not going to question the apostle.

1Co 14:37
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Co 14:38
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

In other words, God will do what God will do with those who choose to be ignorant. But head coverings is frequently combined with allowing women to minister in church, which is yet another prohibition. 1 Cor 11 wasn't even talking about the general assembly of the church. In other words its a slippery slope, which is much steeper than you think. Consider that up until the 20th century all women wore head coverings in church. The abandonment of head coverings led quickly to women in ministry, which led quickly to toleration of all kinds of sinners in the laity, church member and clergy of many trinitarian churches. In fact you'd be hard pressed to find any presbyterian church today that does not allow full communion to gays, apart from those that practice head coverings.

Ellen Brown said:

If I am content in my belief in the Creator, I am free to allow others to practice their own.

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Doesn't make sense.

outlawState said:

Doesn't make sense.

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Why would that surprise you? Everyone is supposed to think like you? The fault always lies with someone else?

A.C. Simon said:

One thing I know is that you can’t believe in both Islam and Christianity and be true to both, it’s just not possible. They’re contradictory to each other; if you really understand both, Islam is the complete antithesis of Christianity. It was as if that was the whole purpose of the forming of that religion, to oppose Jesus and deny Christianity’s fundemental values.
Muhammad was peacful in the beginning of his life when he had no power, but was not the case when he gained power in the last years of his life. Just look at surah 9, the last marching orders of Muhammad, it’s the most violent chapter in the Quran, this is what he left his followers, being an example himself, to kill and destroy.

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Did you try to put it in context? Did he say kill everyone, or did he say kill those who attack you? Did you use the Yusuf Ali interpretation? The rest are camel puke.

After Moses died, Joshua killed lots of people. If I did not believe that I know the context of that killing, I would believe that Joshua was very violent.

I was Christian for over 32 years, and left in 2003 because my denomination and lots of other Christians were defying the words of Jesus the Christ in their dealing with the 9/11 "attack". I worked for local Government when that occurred, and saw what happened here in America and saw the Potus massage the facts. I agree with our going to Afghanistan, but attacking Iraq was devilish, and was done to steal the oil, not because of WMD's

I'm actually back to attending a Christian Church again but look upon the proceedings with a very jaundiced eye, not trusting them. I go to honor the Creator and Jesus the Christ, and to do Communion. I have a different view on the NORMAL Muslims than you do, and you are welcome to it.

Ellen Brown said:

Why would that surprise you? Everyone is supposed to think like you? The fault always lies with someone else?

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Nothing to do with me. You're engaged in a straightforward logical fallacy. As if you had any power to "allow others to practice their own [beliefs]?"

I think that the bible makes the assumption that everyone will practice their own beliefs. Revelation 22:11.

Your "contentedness in your belief in the Creator" is of no consequence. Others will believe and do whatever they will believe and do. Not only is there no connection between the premise and the deduction, but your deduction involves only the assertion of a "freedom" inferring no real belief i.e. it being wholly immaterial that other believe what you believe.

Belief is relegated to a matter of no consequence, inferring that it is not principles of truth that you are talking about, but mere customs and conventions and opinions. That is not what Christianity is about.

outlawState said:

Well, I am not going to question the apostle.

1Co 14:37
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Co 14:38
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

In other words, God will do what God will do with those who choose to be ignorant. But head coverings is frequently combined with allowing women to minister in church, which is yet another prohibition. 1 Cor 11 wasn't even talking about the general assembly of the church. In other words its a slippery slope, which is much steeper than you think. Consider that up until the 20th century all women wore head coverings in church. The abandonment of head coverings led quickly to women in ministry, which led quickly to toleration of all kinds of sinners in the laity, church member and clergy of many trinitarian churches. In fact you'd be hard pressed to find any presbyterian church today that does not allow full communion to gays, apart from those that practice head coverings.

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I still believe women can serve the church or “minister” in ways which don’t take positions of authority over the man; but i see what your talking about and do see the problems of many churches compromising the design of God when it comes to the man being head of the women.

Ellen Brown said:

Not to be insulting, I consider myself an Abrahamic Religionist, and that mostly from a historical point of view. I came OUT of uber conservative belief and am convinced that all those rules just make it so we can not encounter the Creator. If you actually studied Islam, and did not rely on some Pastor who blocks you having a real encounter with the Creator. you'd find that they had their encounter with Jesus (ISA PBUH). And, Jews are actually waiting for the Messian to come and he can tell them what happened. All those rules just make it impossible to love the Creator and others. Love others enough so that their beliefs do not feel threatening to you.

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Ellen Brown said:

Not to be insulting, I consider myself an Abrahamic Religionist, and that mostly from a historical point of view. I came OUT of uber conservative belief and am convinced that all those rules just make it so we can not encounter the Creator. If you actually studied Islam, and did not rely on some Pastor who blocks you having a real encounter with the Creator. you'd find that they had their encounter with Jesus (ISA PBUH). And, Jews are actually waiting for the Messian to come and he can tell them what happened. All those rules just make it impossible to love the Creator and others. Love others enough so that their beliefs do not feel threatening to y

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outlawState said:

Nothing to do with me. You're engaged in a straightforward logical fallacy. As if you had any power to "allow others to practice their own [beliefs]?"

I think that the bible makes the assumption that everyone will practice their own beliefs. Revelation 22:11.

Your "contentedness in your belief in the Creator" is of no consequence. Others will believe and do whatever they will believe and do. Not only is there no connection between the premise and the deduction, but your deduction involves only the assertion of a "freedom" inferring no real belief i.e. it being wholly immaterial that other believe what you believe.

Belief is relegated to a matter of no consequence, inferring that it is not principles of truth that you are talking about, but mere customs and conventions and opinions. That is not what Christianity is about.

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You sir, are a bully, and closed minded to boot. We will not correspond again.

Cultural practices change, but I think this linked article points out what God is really looking for...

In today's culture, we no longer view a woman's wearing of a head covering as a sign of submission. In most modern societies, scarves and hats are fashion accessories. A woman has the choice to wear a head covering if she views it as a sign of her submission to the authority of her husband. However, it is a personal choice and not something that should be used to judge spirituality. The real issue here is the heart attitude of obedience to God's authority and submission to His established order “as to the LORD” (Ephesians 5:22). God is far more concerned with an attitude of submission than an outward display of submission via a head covering.
Should Christian women wear head coverings?

InChrist said:

Cultural practices change, but I think this linked article points out what God is really looking for...

In today's culture, we no longer view a woman's wearing of a head covering as a sign of submission. In most modern societies, scarves and hats are fashion accessories. A woman has the choice to wear a head covering if she views it as a sign of her submission to the authority of her husband. However, it is a personal choice and not something that should be used to judge spirituality. The real issue here is the heart attitude of obedience to God's authority and submission to His established order “as to the LORD” (Ephesians 5:22). God is far more concerned with an attitude of submission than an outward display of submission via a head covering.
Should Christian women wear head coverings?

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So we just abrogate 1 Cor. 11, oh, just because? Just want to be clear on this. How about Matt 5, Matt 19:12 or Isaiah 56:4-5? Are any of those still considered valid? Oh, I don't know, why don't we just throw the whole Bible out? There are similar issues with Surah 4:34, about wife beating. Perhaps I'll just do as I please? Maybe I don't need the Bible, the Quran or any book? Tell me, what if I still need the Creator? Bah, going to bed.

Ellen Brown said:

So we just abrogate 1 Cor. 11, oh, just because? Just want to be clear on this. How about Matt 5, Matt 19:12 or Isaiah 56:4-5? Are any of those still considered valid? Oh, I don't know, why don't we just throw the whole Bible out? There are similar issues with Surah 4:34, about wife beating. Perhaps I'll just do as I please? Maybe I don't need the Bible, the Quran or any book? Tell me, what if I still need the Creator? Bah, going to bed.

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Would you say you are a new creation in Christ?

Ellen Brown said:

Not to be insulting, I consider myself an Abrahamic Religionist, and that mostly from a historical point of view. I came OUT of uber conservative belief and am convinced that all those rules just make it so we can not encounter the Creator. If you actually studied Islam, and did not rely on some Pastor who blocks you having a real encounter with the Creator. you'd find that they had their encounter with Jesus (ISA PBUH). And, Jews are actually waiting for the Messian to come and he can tell them what happened. All those rules just make it impossible to love the Creator and others. Love others enough so that their beliefs do not feel threatening to you.

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I never relied on a pastor as I saw early on how people were mislead because of blindly following what they’re pastor says. I’ve looked into it myself and have concluded with much certainty that the God of the bible is not the same as the god of Islam. Just look at how Islam contradicts Christianity’s fundamental values. Another thing I’ve realized is that Islam the way muhammed taught it as, is not a religion of peace: sure there are many muslims that are peaceful and loving, but they’re ignorant of how Muhammad lived, and what he taught. The ones living the way muhammed did is ISIS. I realize that maybe harsh to you and others muslims but that’s just what i see. And I’ve got to say that your views are very contradictory; you put up this whole thing about head covering, and then you say “all those rules make it impossible to love the Creator and others”, you say your an Abrahamic religionist, when any true Christian or Muslim will tell you, it’s impossible to believe both since they are opposites in they’re fundemental values and only superficially similar.

InChrist said:

Would you say you are a new creation in Christ?

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That is an idea peculiar to Christian culture. The Jews and the Muslims would have no idea what you are saying. If you say that you are a new creation, then BE that new creation. My own experience has been that even after encountering Jesus the Christ in a believable way, I've still had a lot of baggage to deal with. I'd drag a "Strongs" out and research that passage perhaps?

I'd think it more likely that a more meaningful interpretation for today might be along the lines of ,"I am becoming a new creature"?

A.C. Simon said:

I never relied on a pastor as I saw early on how people were mislead because of blindly following what they’re pastor says. I’ve looked into it myself and have concluded with much certainty that the God of the bible is not the same as the god of Islam. Just look at how Islam contradicts Christianity’s fundamental values. Another thing I’ve realized is that Islam the way muhammed taught it as, is not a religion of peace: sure there are many muslims that are peaceful and loving, but they’re ignorant of how Muhammad lived, and what he taught. The ones living the way muhammed did is ISIS. I realize that maybe harsh to you and others muslims but that’s just what i see. And I’ve got to say that your views are very contradictory; you put up this whole thing about head covering, and then you say “all those rules make it impossible to love the Creator and others”, you say your an Abrahamic religionist, when any true Christian or Muslim will tell you, it’s impossible to believe both since they are opposites in they’re fundemental values and only superficially similar.

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My "opinion" on that issue is that when Muhammad PBUH was alive Islam was much more mild. These days if I am looking at Islamic thought, I look only at the Yusuf Ali interpretation, and place no value on the Hadiths, and Fatwas. Muhammad PBUH is an interesting person to study, but do not use western or Christian source books. It has been disappointing to behold their lack of true scholarship on the subject.

My own opinion is that when Ali took over Islam is when many of the atrocities occurred. One could devote a very long time to the study of the subject. Don't be afraid to critically examine all three Abrahamic faiths. I think that Conservative Evangelicals have so damaged Christianity that it may fail. But, that is for God to work out, not me.

Not doing a full blown pity party here. The truth is that I harbor deep distrust of Religious Authorities, especially the Christian ones. That distrust is well earned by them. If the names of Benny Hinn, and John Hagee don't send chills up your back then how about Joseph Smith, and Franklin Graham? There are lots of other triggering factors, and it is now clear to me that it won't be until I have met God face to face that I'll know if I pleased him. Some of you don't care about truth, you just want to put an old woman down.

I leave you to find your own truth.

Ellen Brown said:

My "opinion" on that issue is that when Muhammad PBUH was alive Islam was much more mild. These days if I am looking at Islamic thought, I look only at the Yusuf Ali interpretation, and place no value on the Hadiths, and Fatwas. Muhammad PBUH is an interesting person to study, but do not use western or Christian source books. It has been disappointing to behold their lack of true scholarship on the subject.

My own opinion is that when Ali took over Islam is when many of the atrocities occurred. One could devote a very long time to the study of the subject. Don't be afraid to critically examine all three Abrahamic faiths. I think that Conservative Evangelicals have so damaged Christianity that it may fail. But, that is for God to work out, not me.

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The Hadiths are the best possible sources to study the life of Muhammad, since the Quran doesn’t speak much about his life. They’re written by muslims who were in muhammed’s circle, so I would think it would be honest and truthful to the life of Muhammed: and it’s in these hadiths along with the quran where you see muhammed’s true nature and the true nature of islam.
But leaving that aside, both muslims and christians believe God created the universe by His Word; and both the quran and bible say that Jesus is the Word of God. Showing us Jesus is creator and not creation, therefore being God, which the Quran denies. So if you really want to do your best following the creator, follow Jesus ONLY, since all you need is Him and not another knucklehead false prophet that was demonically inspired.

A.C. Simon said:

The Hadiths are the best possible sources to study the life of Muhammad, since the Quran doesn’t speak much about his life. They’re written by muslims who were in muhammed’s circle, so I would think it would be honest and truthful to the life of Muhammed: and it’s in these hadiths along with the quran where you see muhammed’s true nature and the true nature of islam.
But leaving that aside, both muslims and christians believe God created the universe by His Word; and both the quran and bible say that Jesus is the Word of God. Showing us Jesus is creator and not creation, therefore being God, which the Quran denies. So if you really want to do your best following the creator, follow Jesus ONLY, since all you need is Him and not another knucklehead false prophet that was demonically inspired.

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There are those who are "Quran Only" Muslims and I am most sympathetic to them. The Hadiths are not so offensive to me, but the Fatwas have really caused great deviation in Islam. Though, radical, deviant, and extremist minds like Al Wahhab in Islam, exist in Christianity, and Judaism. My own, greatest concern is that when I call out the name of the Messiah, that he might say to me, "Away from me, I knew you not."

Ellen Brown said:

There are those who are "Quran Only" Muslims and I am most sympathetic to them. The Hadiths are not so offensive to me, but the Fatwas have really caused great deviation in Islam. Though, radical, deviant, and extremist minds like Al Wahhab in Islam, exist in Christianity, and Judaism. My own, greatest concern is that when I call out the name of the Messiah, that he might say to me, "Away from me, I knew you not."

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I still don’t get how you can believe in both or say they’re both truth...

A.C. Simon said:

I still don’t get how you can believe in both or say they’re both truth...

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I don't say all of any belief is true. We are going to have to wait until the Creator, or Jesus comes to explain it to us. The big fat lie is that any of us must believe in any belief system to "be saved". What if someone has had enough and they don't want to come back for the fates to get at them again?

Think about who Abram encountered in Salem? What about the Angel that Muhammad PBUH encountered? Who was it that the Zoroastrians depict in their art work? What is happening with the Yazidis and why hasn't their divine one made their world better? They were before the Jews and the Zoroastrians, "experts" say.

I am most confused about why I believe in a Creator any more. It is in my spirit. I'm doubtful that that Creator protected me from a single thing that he did not want to happen in my life.

Where did I say that I believe in everything in any belief system? Perhaps I'm not a believer any more? Perhaps I'm just a very amateur spiritual Archaeologist? One of the members here tried to intellectually bully me. I wonder who here has stood face to face with an authority figure who said they were going to kill them? In those circumstances, it makes no sense to believe in anything at all does it?