Trump's moment of radical honesty

sealchan · Jun 15, 2018

Phantasman said:
You might want to explain that to the lefties like Antifa. University Educated? lol.....

I try when I get the opportunity.

Your actually asking me if I am university educated and then laughing... lol

Do you know what the word gnosis means?

Phantasman · Jun 15, 2018

metis said:
Again, I have to note that it's all about YOU with the above. I'm not going to get into what I may give because that would not only be self-serving but also not the point I was making.

In history, it has been made painfully clear that charity alone cannot deal with all the ills that people suffer from, especially since donations tend to dry up during recessions and depressions. Charity definitely has a role to play but it's far from being a cure-all.

1 Corinthians 13 says it all.

Expecting a governments money that is so far in debt it will never get out, is placing issues into the wrong hands. Charity/love never fails.

See it as you wish.

metis · Jun 15, 2018

Phantasman said:
1 Corinthians 13 says it all.

Actually it doesn't as there's no evidence that Jesus would have been opposed to Jewish Law on the necessity of the government to levy taxes to help the poor. He would have had that opportunity to do as such if he felt it was wrong in the Parable of the Widow's Mite and the Sermon On the Mount, but it's in neither.

Phantasman said:
Expecting a governments money that is so far in debt it will never get out, is placing issues into the wrong hands.

So, I assume you're opposed to the government funding the U.S. Armed Services and building our infrastructure, right?

Phantasman · Jun 15, 2018

metis said:
Actually it doesn't as there's no evidence that Jesus would have been opposed to Jewish Law on the necessity of the government to levy taxes to help the poor. He would have had that opportunity to do as such if he felt it was wrong in the Parable of the Widow's Mite and the Sermon On the Mount, but it's in neither.

So, I assume you're opposed to the government funding the U.S. Armed Services and building our infrastructure, right?

Assume away. You seem to be good at it.

metis · Jun 15, 2018

Phantasman said:
Assume away. You seem to be good at it.

Not an "assumption" but just a probability based on actually what's in the scriptures, plus what we know about the Great Sanhedrin and the demands at the Temple. But since it is likely that you know much about Jewish Law, I can't expect that you would to be able to connect the dots on this.

Jesus was a Jew operating from a Jewish paradigm, but all too often some Christians seem to forget about that.

Phantasman · Jun 15, 2018

metis said:
Not an "assumption" but just a probability based on actually what's in the scriptures, plus what we know about the Great Sanhedrin and the demands at the Temple. But since it is likely that you know much about Jewish Law, I can't expect that you would to be able to connect the dots on this.

Jesus was a Jew operating from a Jewish paradigm, but all too often some Christians seem to forget about that.

YOU said assume. Now it's not. I can't follow you.

Jesus came to the Jews as a Jew first. When they rejected him, he took the Word away from them and gave it to the world.

John 1:
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God gave his son to the world, not the Jews.

John 3:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Kind of leaves the Jews out, since they don't believe.

But go ahead and follow others. I can only show you, not MAKE you believe it.

metis · Jun 16, 2018

Phantasman said:
Kind of leaves the Jews out, since they don't believe.

Then that makes God into a pathological liar since He promised otherwise:
Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

What you and many others fail to understand is that the scriptures in basically all religions are subjective, not objective, thus bias is commonplace.

Phantasman · Jun 16, 2018

metis said:
Then that makes God into a pathological liar since He promised otherwise:
Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

What you and many others fail to understand is that the scriptures in basically all religions are subjective, not objective, thus bias is commonplace.

Not a single word from the "gospel" which Jesus said to teach. I am not Jewish. Christians follow Christ. Jews don't.

You are quoting Moses and Isaiah. The Holy Spirit was in Christ, not them.

Luke 9 and Matthew 17 both say who to follow of the 3 from the Father himself. Yet you are blind to it, and fight for your orthodox brethren. Jesus told the Jews they were following a liar and murderer. So yes, in a sense their "god" lied to them. It's why Jesus said that HE was the truth.

I really feel sorry for you. It takes time and seeking to see it and break from that mental prison.

metis · Jun 16, 2018

Phantasman said:
Not a single word from the "gospel" which Jesus said to teach. I am not Jewish. Christians follow Christ. Jews don't.

We're talking about God's Covenant, P, so the above is simply a deflection because you and I know you cannot refute what's written because it's right there in black & white.

Phantasman said:
You are quoting Moses and Isaiah. The Holy Spirit was in Christ, not them.

So, God's Spirit was in neither? Do you know what a "prophet" is and what that entails?

Phantasman said:
I really feel sorry for you. It takes time and seeking to see it and break from that mental prison.

Jesus taught the "law of love", not the "law of judgmentalism and bigotry". He taught about the need of compassion and fairness for all, not arrogance and self-righteousness. And he taught about the need for his followers to take "the narrow path" and live in the "Imitation of Christ", to use Thomas Kemphis' title of his excellent book Maybe you should read it.

IOW, there's a difference between believing somethings about Jesus versus believing in Jesus.

Phantasman · Jun 16, 2018

metis said:
We're talking about God's Covenant, P, so the above is simply a deflection because you and I know you cannot refute what's written because it's right there in black & white.

So, God's Spirit was in neither? Do you know what a "prophet" is and what that entails?

Jesus taught the "law of love", not the "law of judgmentalism and bigotry". He taught about the need of compassion and fairness for all, not arrogance and self-righteousness. And he taught about the need for his followers to take "the narrow path" and live in the "Imitation of Christ", to use Thomas Kemphis' title of his excellent book Maybe you should read it.

IOW, there's a difference between believing somethings about Jesus versus believing in Jesus.

Have you read Acts 7? Read it. The Jews were hearing angels, not God. Jesus said the Jews never heard Gods voice or saw his shape. Believe Jesus or follow the Jews (who died). It's a choice, one of gnosis (knowledge of the Spirt).

The Spirit (capital S) was given by Christ after he arose. Moses never had or heard it, and no OT author even refers to it. It was taught by Paul and the Disciples. Not one Jewish father.

The murdering god wants you to see him as god. He murders. He lies. And uses the Jewish fathers to do so. Just ask Jesus as he was tempted in the desert. Use wisdom. Not doctrines of men.

metis · Jun 18, 2018

Phantasman said:
Have you read Acts 7? Read it. The Jews were hearing angels, not God. Jesus said the Jews never heard Gods voice or saw his shape. Believe Jesus or follow the Jews (who died). It's a choice, one of gnosis (knowledge of the Spirt).

The Spirit (capital S) was given by Christ after he arose. Moses never had or heard it, and no OT author even refers to it. It was taught by Paul and the Disciples. Not one Jewish father.

The murdering god wants you to see him as god. He murders. He lies. And uses the Jewish fathers to do so. Just ask Jesus as he was tempted in the desert. Use wisdom. Not doctrines of men.

Again, you simply do not know what you're talking about, and also what you simply are clueless about is what I had posted before, namely that scriptures are highly subjective, not objective.

Nor do you understand what a "prophet" is, nor do you understand the basis behind the Abrahamic Covenant is and what it entails. Nor do you understand the significance of the Mosaic Law and why it cannot be undermined or ignored if one is Jewish, which is what Jesus and the Twelve were.

And for you to use the terminology "murdering god" in reference to what Genesis says is Abraham's God, is basically saying that the Tanakh is invalid, and if that's the case then, as Aquinas asserted, there is no substantiation of Jesus supposedly being "the Messiah" since that depends on what's in the Tanakh.

IOW, you've defeated your own position, therefore end of discussion.

Phantasman · Jun 18, 2018

metis said:
Again, you simply do not know what you're talking about, and also what you simply are clueless about is what I had posted before, namely that scriptures are highly subjective, not objective.

Nor do you understand what a "prophet" is, nor do you understand the basis behind the Abrahamic Covenant is and what it entails. Nor do you understand the significance of the Mosaic Law and why it cannot be undermined or ignored if one is Jewish, which is what Jesus and the Twelve were.

And for you to use the terminology "murdering god" in reference to what Genesis says is Abraham's God, is basically saying that the Tanakh is invalid, and if that's the case then, as Aquinas asserted, there is no substantiation of Jesus supposedly being "the Messiah" since that depends on what's in the Tanakh.

IOW, you've defeated your own position, therefore end of discussion.

(sigh)

Discussion is over. I have used gospel messages to show you truth. Remember, I believed like you for over 20 years. It was a troubling wake up call for me.

Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."- Gospel of Thomas

It took hard seeking and praying for me to see the difference in a god who promised (physical) land and slaughtered men to one who promised "life" in spirit and wasn't a life taker, but life giver.

I am not nin the least upset or discouraged by your words, metis. It's just the way it is. The seed is placed. It grows or dies (gnosis). Patience is a virtue. One day something may happen when you recall this debate.

I have no regrets or anger. And I hope you don't as well.

Keep your heart and mind open to all things spiritual.

Go your way in peace.

Dan (Phantasman)

Trump's moment of radical honesty

sealchan

Well-Known Member

Phantasman

Well-Known Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Phantasman

Well-Known Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Phantasman

Well-Known Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Phantasman

Well-Known Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Phantasman

Well-Known Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Phantasman

Well-Known Member