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Why Does God Permit Evil?
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
Michael1981
Member
Can you elaborate? I don't see how God being created or not comes into play.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I asked
According to your words
From your words, this is what I understand you could only be saying.
God formed light - total light.
God is light - total light.
Therefore total light - God - could only exist, if God formed it. Hence God formed or created himself.
Why don't you explain what you mean then.
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Michael1981
Member
Ok, I see what you're getting at now.
I believe "I form the light and create darkness" is essentially just another way of saying "I make peace and create evil."
"Light" is "peace" as "darkness" is "evil." The Lord is the former but brings forth the latter to serve His purposes.
The purpose of this verse is simply to declare that He is behind all things, whether good or evil. That doesn't mean that evil is a bad thing; it has a purpose that is ultimately good, because He works out everything by the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11). And His will is a glorious thing:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
I believe "I form the light and create darkness" is essentially just another way of saying "I make peace and create evil."
"Light" is "peace" as "darkness" is "evil." The Lord is the former but brings forth the latter to serve His purposes.
The purpose of this verse is simply to declare that He is behind all things, whether good or evil. That doesn't mean that evil is a bad thing; it has a purpose that is ultimately good, because He works out everything by the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11). And His will is a glorious thing:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Japle
Member
The assertion by believers that God isn’t responsible for the evil in the world is absurd. Who’s in charge here? Who has the power?
Who has shown that he’s perfectly happy to kill off a man’s family (that’s Job I’m talking about) and wreck his life just to win what amounts to a bar bet with his buddy Satan?
Who created malaria and typhus and Ebola and typhoid and diphtheria and rabies and HIV and influenza?
Who loves us so much that he directs the suffering and death of millions of innocent children every year? And don’t try to tell me that it’s Satan who’s responsible. God is more powerful than Satan, isn’t he? If he didn’t approve of Satan’s actions, he could stop him. If your god doesn’t do anything to halt all the suffering, he must approve of it.
When the god of the Old Testament wipes out almost the entire human race with his flood, he’s behaving like a spoiled three-year-old who builds a sand castle. The castle doesn’t turn out the way the kid wanted, so he kicks it to pieces. He blames the castle, instead of taking responsibility for building it badly.
If God can stop evil and suffering, but doesn’t, he is an evil god.
If God can’t stop evil and suffering, what good is he?
Who has shown that he’s perfectly happy to kill off a man’s family (that’s Job I’m talking about) and wreck his life just to win what amounts to a bar bet with his buddy Satan?
Who created malaria and typhus and Ebola and typhoid and diphtheria and rabies and HIV and influenza?
Who loves us so much that he directs the suffering and death of millions of innocent children every year? And don’t try to tell me that it’s Satan who’s responsible. God is more powerful than Satan, isn’t he? If he didn’t approve of Satan’s actions, he could stop him. If your god doesn’t do anything to halt all the suffering, he must approve of it.
When the god of the Old Testament wipes out almost the entire human race with his flood, he’s behaving like a spoiled three-year-old who builds a sand castle. The castle doesn’t turn out the way the kid wanted, so he kicks it to pieces. He blames the castle, instead of taking responsibility for building it badly.
If God can stop evil and suffering, but doesn’t, he is an evil god.
If God can’t stop evil and suffering, what good is he?
nPeace
Veteran Member
Just to be sure I am understanding you.
When you say
Do you mean for instance, that he is behind, say the dropping of the atom bomb on Hiroshima, or say, the six million Jews that died in Hitler's concentration camps, etc?
Or as the above comment is saying
Michael1981
Member
Right you are. How then, can you say the following: "The castle doesn’t turn out the way the kid wanted, so he kicks it to pieces."
Who says it didn't turn out the way He wanted? If He has the power, and omnipotence at that, do you think He is so inept/powerless that He makes mistakes? If you're going to make an argument, at least be consistent.
Where in all of the Scriptures does it say that God is "perfectly happy" to do any such thing? Do They not, in fact, say the opposite? They do:
"For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!" (Ezekiel 18:32)
He does approve of it, though not in the way you infer. Suffering serves a necessary purpose. Again, I'll post the link to a very enlightening paper on the purpose of evil:
The Purpose of Evil
The flood served many purposes, but one of those purposes was to demonstrate His wrath, which falls upon evildoers. It's His righteousness at work, the great and terrible day of the Lord - the kind of day that will eventually befall all those who refuse to repent.
So, the Lord of the universe has to fit into your box of two options? Have you not considered that there might be a third option? Is it not arrogant of you to assume that there are only two? Some humility would serve you well. Consider that if you're wrong, you're speaking with supreme presumption against your Creator, one Who has the power to destroy both your body and soul in Hell. Someday you will say, as Job did:
"You asked, 'Who is this that obscures My plans without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know." (Job 42:3)
Michael1981
Member
Would He be God if these things weren't a part of His plan? Terrible things, for sure, but all of these are the unfortunate means to this most wonderful end:
"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:4)
All is well that ends well.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I don't want to put words in your mouth so, you are saying that God was behind the making and using the atomic bomb, and the torture and starving of the six million Jews to death?
You are also saying he planned it all?
Was God responsible for the sin of the first man, Adam?
Michael1981
Member
I think I've been pretty clear about that, but I want to make the distinction that while God is ultimately responsible, He is not to blame. We're to blame for our own actions. Why shouldn't we be? Are we robots? Do you feel like a robot? If you steal from someone, or somehow hurt someone, do you not feel responsible yourself? What does it matter if God determined you should do what you've done, especially if His purpose for it is good? Take Joseph (Jacob's son) as an example. His brothers wanted to kill him and literally sold him into slavery. God took that evil act and brought Joseph's brothers salvation from it, feeding them during a terrible famine because Joseph had been brought to rule under Pharoah.
God planned Joseph's being sold into slavery, planned the famine (and so advised Joseph to prepare for it by stockpiling grain), and planned for Joseph to forgive and feed his brothers despite their sin. Great mercy!
Yes, God planned it all, down to the tiniest detail, and it's all a perfectly wise and perfectly executed plan with zero mistakes.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Why do we sometimes feel we have made ourselves clear, when we avoid answering a question with yes or no? Is it perhaps that we feel everyone is human, therefore everyone thinks and understands the same way?
Anyhow, I'm not going to press you to give a straight answer.
Perhaps when you are faced with the same situation, you might reflect back on this one... hopefully.
There is a reason I was specific with my questions.
Would you care to put this situation in perspective?
A man committed willful and premeditated murder.
He gets caught, and charged with first degree murder.
In court, the judge passes a sentence of life in prison, without parole.
Is the law responsibility for the evil the man committed?
Is the law evil, and has the law done an evil?
Michael1981
Member
Why do we sometimes feel we have made ourselves clear, when we avoid answering a question with yes or no? Is it perhaps that we feel everyone is human, therefore everyone thinks and understands the same way?
Anyhow, I'm not going to press you to give a straight answer.
Perhaps when you are faced with the same situation, you might reflect back on this one... hopefully.
Well, I believe I provided a straight answer. If you disagree, perhaps you could point out how I erred. I could be wrong, and perhaps I do owe you a better answer.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you're saying if God is responsible, then He has no right to send someone to Hell.
I assume that you are assuming that I believe Hell to be an eternal destination. That is not the case. The doctrine of eternal damnation is a horrible lie that blasphemously misrepresents the character of Jesus Christ. Read, my friend, about the wonderful truth of the reconciliation of all things.
nPeace
Veteran Member
It's okay. Or better yet - yes you do... owe me a better answer.
You have assumed wrong, and I assumed no such thing.
I said it on these forums before, and I will say it again - I try not to assume what people are saying. That's why I ask questions, so that I can understand precisely what someone is saying.
Sadly, sometimes people seem to think you should assume, because they don't give you a straight answer, but somehow they think they have.
I'm glad to know you believe that
I would so like if you would answer the questions I presented. That would be so cool.
Then I would certainly get a better understanding of your viewpoint.
No.
We limited humans haven't any better way to deal with that sort of behavior.
But we are not God!
We didn't make the murderer. We can't fix him. We didn't know the murder was going to happen and couldn't have prevented it with some sort of miracle. Your story implies that God is pretty darned weak and bumbling, or quite disinterested. I, personally, find the "disinterested" god most plausible.
Tom
nPeace
Veteran Member
Michael1981
Member
I would so like if you would answer the questions I presented. That would be so cool.
Then I would certainly get a better understanding of your viewpoint.
Okay, sorry that I assumed. The law is not responsible for the evil the man committed. How could it be?
How could the law be evil if it's there to deter evil? And how could a law, which is unable to perform any sort of action, have committed anything at all, much less an evil act it's there to prevent?
That wasn't much of a response, even before you struck through it. Have you a response to my post?I already get your beef chief. It's been repeated numerous times - like the umpteenth time.
Tom
nPeace
Veteran Member
Fine. Thanks.
So tell me if you are with me.
Willful disobedience on the part of the angel named the Devil and Satan, and willful disobedience on the part of Adam, cannot be blamed on God, their creator. They are responsible for their own evil.
Correct?
I think this is what you are saying here.
Correct me if I am wrong.
The scriptures say - James 1:13-15
So according to scripture, and according to reasonable logic, each person is responsible for the evil they commit.
God did not go into anyone's head, and tell them to make an atom bomb, and drop it, or torture and starve millions of Jews to death. Nor did he hold their hands and make them do it - like robots.
Can we agree on that, Michael?
So what you said here
is a bit confusing to me.
I feel I know what you want to say, but I feel you didn't said it how you meant it. I could be wrong, so I am not going to assume. I'm going to let you clear it up for me.
Also this
I'll let you verify what you mean here also, but I'm going to say what I understand you may be trying to say.
Back to the scenario...
...has the law done an evil?
I answer - in a sense, yes - but the evil is justified, and they are not guilty of wrongdoing.
You see, that murderer has a family - a wife, and several children - small children. The wife's not working. She stayed home to nurse and care for her newborn baby. Now the family in some way suffer.
So by justly, and righteously locking the man up - the law has in turn created an evil - for his family.
This is how God "created evil" (for those who like to use the term), and I do agree it can be considered such, in the sense that one understands it correctly.
I like the way the scriptures put it.
Romans 8:20, 2
So God justly and rightly condemning Adam to death - resulting in suffering and death to his offspring, is not wrongdoing on his part.
With our scenario, the law doesn't normally put measures in place to look after the families of criminals. Nor do they have any mechanism in place that will eventually prevent this situation from happening ever again.
God does.
I would be glad to hear your expressions.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Just posted.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I can understand why a person might reason this way,
I too might have reasoned that way, if I saw a situation and made a judgment, without having all the facts. In fact this is a common thing we humans do. Perhaps it is a part of our nature.
However, many persons who once had similar questions, but because they were able to gather the facts surrounding the situation, came to have a different viewpoint. They realized that their vision was quite short-sighted.
For one thing they learned that if God acted to remove all evil centuries ago - when perhaps many before our time might have complained - that would mean (1) we would not have existed; (2) almost everyone, including those who complained would have been wiped out - due to the fact that they too would have meritted God condemnation.
So now rather than complain, these persons appreciate the fact that they have life, God's love and mercy, and a hope for a better future, because of the provisions God have made, and the steps he is taking for the eternal benefits of all mankind.
They realize that their shortsighted vision prevented them from seeing how vastly inferior their knowledge, wisdom, and understanding is, in comparison to the creator of - not toys and tiny motorcars, and miniature skyscrapers - but the universe.
They realize that their shortsighted vision prevented them from seeing that God had put measures in place that would prevent anyone from ever questioning his rightfulness as ruler, and also measures that would remove and repair the damage done by selfish, rebellious individuals.
They got to realize that the time it would take for all of this, was also an expression of love on God's part - allowing mankind to learn which path is better, allowing them time to make the right decision, and allowing them to developer overall in their knowledge, understanding and wisdom, and build better character.
There is so much more I can mention, but I don't want to write a book here.
However, when the cloud that covers our eyes is removed, it allows us to see so much clearer. We get a clearer vision of the bigger picture. It's a beautiful one.
2 Peter 3:8, 9
Dear friends, don’t forget that for the Lord one day is the same as a thousand years, and a thousand years is the same as one day.
The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost.
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