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The ends justify the means?

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Do the ends really justify the means? Can we achieve anything good by doing evil?

Not according to Jesus:
Luke 6:43 For a good tree brings not forth corrupt fruit; neither does a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

I think the fruit and root discussion is more "fruitful" when used to test false beliefs. For example, certain cults bring destruction on themselves and others, false fruit, false root.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I think the fruit and root discussion is more "fruitful" when used to test false beliefs. For example, certain cults bring destruction on themselves and others, false fruit, false root.

I agree. It was never meant to be inserted in an
'ends justify the means' debate. The parable has it's own meaning, right where it belongs in its own context.
 
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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Do the ends really justify the means? Can we achieve anything good by doing evil?
The Flood.
The Crucifixion.
Israel's entire existence.

Clearly, doing bad things is how God does "good" all the time and then He wonders why the results aren't up to snuff.

Honestly, I'm quite suprised that a play written 2500 years ago is right on par at being a hollywood quality movie today!
Lysistrata is also a fun read. :)

No, even when all other avenues were exhausted, we didn't torture our suspect, because that would be wrong. Yes, the bomb went off at noon.
Torture doesn't work, statistically speaking. The real world isn't a TV show or action movie.

Effectiveness of torture for interrogation - Wikipedia

Taking hours or days to torture someone could be better used looking for the stupid thing.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
The Son of Man grows and sustains, of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. So, while Luke 6:43 is true, your responsibility is to test the spirits, and search for evidence, in order that you come to a more complete understanding.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The ST: DS9 episode "Under a Pale Moon" comes to mind. The Federation, aligned with the Klingon Empire, are losing a war and devastating losses are adding up. The only way to turn the tide and stand a chance at winning is the get the Romulans to end their position of neutrality and turn on the Dominion, who they have been friendly with. So, Captain Sisko, knowing what he is about to do is immoral, unethical, and even illegal, employs the assistance of former Obsidian Order operative Elim Garak. What follows are black market deals, deception, forgery, and assassination. But the Romulans end up joining the war. And while reminiscing about it, Sisko basically declares "screw the morality behind it, I'd do it again." And why not? The Dominion was ultimately defeated, and defeated by lies and deception.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Do the ends really justify the means? Can we achieve anything good by doing evil?

Not according to Jesus:
Luke 6:43 For a good tree brings not forth corrupt fruit; neither does a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
How do you think that verse suggests "the ends don't justify the means?"

To me, that verse suggests the opposite: if the fruit is good, you shouldn't take issue with the tree.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
The ST:DS9 episode "Under a Pale Moon" comes to mind. The Federation, aligned with the Klingon Empire, are losing a war and devastating losses are adding up. The only way to turn the tide and stand a chance at winning is the get the Romulans to end their position of neutrality and turn on the Dominion, who they have been friendly with. So, Captain Sisko, knowing what he is about to do is immoral, unethical, and even illegal, employs the assistance of former Obsidian Order operative Elim Garak. What follows are black market deals, deception, forgery, and assassination. But the Romulans end up joining the war. And while reminiscing about it, Sisko basically declares "screw the morality behind it, I'd do it again." And why not? The Dominion was ultimately defeated, and defeated by lies and deception.

Excellent rendition!

Billy-D_Approves.gif
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I think there is a parable somewhere......

something about ....digging around the root and applying dung
all in the effort to save the tree
Was expounding on the parable... It isn't to save the fig tree (Judah), it is to test if the tree can produce any good fruit, even after being cut back, and fertilized.

Yet questioning that some of the bad branches (Pharisaic Judaism) were grafted onto the new shoots, so now the whole harvest is corrupted.

In my opinion.
:innocent:
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Do the ends really justify the means? Can we achieve anything good by doing evil?

Not according to Jesus:
Luke 6:43 For a good tree brings not forth corrupt fruit; neither does a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

"Two wrongs do not make a right."

But more precisely, I think we are talking about the results of intentions that people hold within their hearts.

Luke 6:45
"A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of."​

When a person has malevolent intentions, those intentions eventually manifest as bad things.
When a person has benevolent intentions, those intentions eventually manifest as good things.

The gospels often use analogy. In this case, Jesus is not talking about means and ends. He is talking about intentions and their manifestations. IMO.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Do the ends really justify the means? Can we achieve anything good by doing evil?

Not according to Jesus:
Luke 6:43 For a good tree brings not forth corrupt fruit; neither does a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

I agree with Jesus, evil cannot be won by becoming evil. That would be logical fallacy. :)

But perhaps some good things can happen, even if evil is done.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Do the ends really justify the means? Can we achieve anything good by doing evil?

Not according to Jesus:
Luke 6:43 For a good tree brings not forth corrupt fruit; neither does a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

People aren't fruit trees.

Any man is capable of both good and evil. This is a really, really bad simile IMO of course. May cause you to right off folks who may just have been in bad situations.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
There are some situations where the end might justify the means. Consider the question:

Where's that atom bomb you planted under New York city set to go off at noon?​

If our suspect refuses to answer, to respond to bribes, to negotiate, to help in any way to prevent the disaster, is it fair to torture him or her? Not just thumbscrews and lit cigarettes but all the subtle stuff too?

Can you morally face the public and say,
No, even when all other avenues were exhausted, we didn't torture our suspect, because that would be wrong. Yes, the bomb went off at noon.​
?
Well in that case I would argue that torture is not really "evil". The person's blood is on their own head because they refuse to tell you where the bomb is. They brought it on themselves.

But I also think that my argument is not really about individual, isolated events. Of course you can bring up various scenarios. I think I was more referring to methodology. Let's say you made it a policy to routinely torture people to advance your goals. After all, anyone could be hiding a bomb somewhere in the city. So it's maybe a smart (but evil) idea to torture suspects.
The idea that violence can be used to progress Humanity has always proved to be appealing to utopians.

Whether this is chiliastic Anabaptist Christians in Munster, French Revolutionaries, Fascists, 20th C communists or countless other groups both religious and secular in nature, violence has been seen as a social cleansing agent. Violence could be a tool to fast-forward human progress by killing heretics, aristocrats, untermenschen, kulaks, clerics or other 'undesirables' who 'stand in the way of progress'.

In general, the argument that the ends justify the means fails because the ends are flawed in the first place and are never going to be reached. This tends to perpetuate the cycle of violence.
I agree with that. I believe they did not have a good idea because they are incapable of having a good fruit because they're a corrupt tree. But furthermore, even if htey did have a good idea, yet it would end up being corrupted because the people who have advanced their own idea have become corrupt themselves. Even Neitzsche said:

He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.

I agree. It was never meant to be inserted in an
'ends justify the means' debate. The parable has it's own meaning, right where it belongs in its own context.
I believe it has multiple possible applications and shouldn't be limited to just the most obvious interpretation alone.

The Flood.
The Crucifixion.
Israel's entire existence.

Clearly, doing bad things is how God does "good" all the time and then He wonders why the results aren't up to snuff.
Well you're defining bad for us. I would say God is a better judge of good and evil than you are.
How do you think that verse suggests "the ends don't justify the means?"

To me, that verse suggests the opposite: if the fruit is good, you shouldn't take issue with the tree.
I'm saying when people corrupt themselves in order to achieve something they think is good then they should not expect anything good to come of it. Because they've corrupted themselves. How can they suddenly switch back to being good once they've achieved their objectives? Once someone is corrupted then they are going to have a hard time making themselves good again.

Here is another verse. This one was about Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon:
Woe to him that builds a town with blood, and stablishs a city by iniquity! Habakkuk 2:12

Nebuchadnezzar wanted to make Babylon the paramount city in the world but he did so through wicked means.
I agree with Jesus, evil cannot be won by becoming evil. That would be logical fallacy. :)

But perhaps some good things can happen, even if evil is done.
I agree that some good things can always come about. A silver lining you know.

People aren't fruit trees.

Any man is capable of both good and evil. This is a really, really bad simile IMO of course. May cause you to right off folks who may just have been in bad situations.
Well I think you're misunderstanding because according to the Bible people can change and they can become a good fruit tree if they repent. However my argument is against people who think they can switch back and forth between corrupt and good whenever it suits their purposes.

And more importantly my argument is against people who plant a tree in evil but expect the fruit to be good. So my argument is not really even about people so much as someone's cause. Let's take communism as an obvious example. Do you really need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette if you know what I mean?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Do the ends really justify the means? Can we achieve anything good by doing evil?

Not according to Jesus:
Luke 6:43 For a good tree brings not forth corrupt fruit; neither does a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Doesn't it contradict the crusafiction of Jesus?
Unless Abusing and killing Jesus was an act of goodness?
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Doesn't it contradict the crusafiction of Jesus?
Unless Abusing and killing Jesus was an act of goodness?
I believe that Jesus was God manifest; so it was an act of goodness on His part. He gave Himself to show His love, devotion and forgiveness. (Philippians 2:6-8)
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
I believe that Jesus was God manifest; so it was an act of goodness on His part. He gave Himself to show His love, devotion and forgiveness. (Philippians 2:6-8)
So you just gave yourself an answer.

If god can do evil to generate good, than evil can be a good thing :)
 
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