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Universe slowing or accelerating?

Anybody know whether scientists have decided if the universes expansion is slowing down or speeding up?
For years they said it was slowing, but now they're saying its accelerating, I wish they'd make their minds up ;)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Mick in England said:
Anybody know whether scientists have decided if the universes expansion is slowing down or speeding up?
For years they said it was slowing, but now they're saying its accelerating, I wish they'd make their minds up ;)

This was published in January 2004 http://www.fnal.gov/pub/ferminews/ferminews04-01-01/p5.html


It's a mystery
Simply put, dark energy is a mystery. The expansion of the universe is accelerating, and theorists believe that dark energy is the driving force behind it. Evidence shows that dark energy makes up approximately 70 percent of the universe, meaning 25 percent is dark matter and 4 percent is matter made of atoms.
"Dark energy is the most important problem and deepest mystery in all of science," Turner said. "We are talking about the expansion of the universe speeding up. Everyone understands that it should be slowing down because of gravity. What is going on? The simple answer is that we don't have a clue and that is what makes this so much fun."
But what is dark energy? How does it behave? Why is it there? If dark energy is anything, it is the driving force that leads to questions with very few answers. And that is where Fermilab comes in.
cluster.jpg

[SIZE=-1]The distant white dwarf supernova, SN 1997ff, exhibited less red-shift than expected, indicating that the expansion of the universe was speeding up.[/SIZE]
The Higgs, Supersymmetry, and Extra Dimensions
Both cosmologists and theoretical physicists believe that dark energy has a fundamental connection to particle physics. "Particle physics is all about understanding the fundamentals of matter, space, time and energy," Turner said. "Dark energy appears to be a fundamental feature of space."
But how can a particle accelerator help solve the mystery? Lykken believes that experimental discoveries of the Higgs particle, supersymmetry and extra dimensions may provide some clues about the physics behind dark energy.
"If the Tevatron were to discover supersymmetry (and there is a good possibility that it will), we would have a great chance to learn something about dark energy," Lykken said. "Dark energy is a very long-term project, and nobody said that understanding it was going to be easy. On the particle side, we need the Large Hadron Collider and the Linear Collider. New telescopes, such as Supernova/Acceleration Project's satellite telescope, are also necessary."
Turner agrees that accelerators alone cannot solve the dark energy puzzle. "We need both accelerators and telescopes," he said. "Accelerators can play a role by testing the role of supersymmetry, and telescopes can play a role by looking out in space and back in time to map out the expansion history, telling us how this cosmological speed-up occurred."
The Evidence
In 1998, a team from Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, led by Saul Perlmutter, and a team of scientists from around the world, led by Australian astronomer Brian Schmidt, announced that the expansion of the universe appears to be accelerating. The two teams found that a distant supernova was fainter than expected, indicating that the expansion of the universe was speeding up rather than slowing down.
"We know that the expansion of the universe is accelerating," said Lykken. "But matter does not make the universe accelerate. It makes it slow down. There must be something else making the expansion speed up."
Since 1998, the number of observed supernovae has increased dramatically, and the evidence for dark energy has only gotten stronger. In February 2003, the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe produced a map of the cosmic microwave background. The WMAP analysis indicates that atomic matter makes up 4 percent of the universe, dark matter makes up 23 percent, and dark energy makes up 73 percent. In October 2003, the Sloan Digital Sky Survey independently confirmed this data, bolstering the case for dark energy.
"This is all the smell of good science," said Turner. "Scientists always like to have independent confirmation of the same data—the more independent the better. Dark energy is not a discovery that is too good to be true."
Lykken added, "The Standard Model makes up only four percent of the universe, and those principles don't explain things like dark energy. There is a whole universe out there, and that's great. Instead of being an old science, we found out that particle physics is a new science. I don't know anybody that is resisting dark energy any more."
The Destiny of the Universe
Before dark energy, physicists believed that gravity would eventually cause the universe to collapse. Now that physicists know the universe is speeding up, the destiny question is wide open.
"If the universe continues to accelerate, its fate is not very attractive," said Lykken. "In the end, the universe will be dominated by dark energy, and we will all dilute away. I would like to find a much more disastrous way for the universe to end."
Turner agrees that if the universe continues to accelerate, its fate is bleak. "We will only see a handful more galaxies, which makes a great argument for funding astronomy now," he says. "It may not be possible in a billion years. On the other hand, the destiny question is wide open, and discoveries at Fermilab could change this conclusion."
 
Thanks, I often wonder if this Bible verse is referring to what we call "dark matter" -
"God made the worlds so that what is seen is not made out of what was visible" (Heb 11:3 KJV)

PS - I understand poor Pluto has now been downgraded from being a planet, what's the story behind that?
And I heard two(?) new planets have recently been discovered..
So how many planets are there in the solar system now?
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Thanks, I often wonder if this Bible verse is referring to what we call "dark matter" -
"God made the worlds so that what is seen is not made out of what was visible" (Heb 11:3 KJV)
Any number of people have used any number of different things to "prove" that verse. Dark matter, dark energy, quantum strings, atoms, air, etc.

PS - I understand poor Pluto has now been downgraded from being a planet, what's the story behind that?
Google it.

And I heard two(?) new planets have recently been discovered..
You heard incorrectly.

So how many planets are there in the solar system now?
Eight
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
As far as I know, Islam dictates that its expanding. So religiously, thats what I believe. Scientifically, it's the same - largely because of religious bias. ;)
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
As far as I know, Islam dictates that its expanding. So religiously, thats what I believe. Scientifically, it's the same - largely because of religious bias.
From what I've seen, it's reading in very havily to the Quranic verse in question.

If you are referring to Surah 51:47, my understanding is that "expanding" wasn't in the English translation until the 20th century.

21:104 is often used to claim foreknowledge of the big crunch; though it has fallen out of favor as it no longer looks like the Big crunch is a reality.
 
Incidentally the "time dilation effect" has always intrigued me, where time runs slower for someone travelling at high speed.
It must therefore be un-nerving for astronauts to see the second hand of their watches getting slower and slower the faster they go..
Or does NASA issue digital watches to them in order to overcome the problem?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Mick in England said:
Incidentally the "time dilation effect" has always intrigued me, where time runs slower for someone travelling at high speed.
It must therefore be un-nerving for astronauts to see the second hand of their watches getting slower and slower the faster they go..
Or does NASA issue digital watches to them in order to overcome the problem?

The fastest the astronauts go is about 18,000 miles per hour. Barely a fraction of light speed which is 186,000 miles PER SECOND.

They notice nothing different in their watches.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
The fastest the astronauts go is about 18,000 miles per hour. Barely a fraction of light speed which is 186,000 miles PER SECOND.

They notice nothing different in their watches.
That's because their watches are imprecise. Satilites in orbit suffer time dilation. This is particularly an issue on GPS satilites which must be routinely adjusted to account for it.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Mick in England said:
Incidentally the "time dilation effect" has always intrigued me, where time runs slower for someone travelling at high speed.
It must therefore be un-nerving for astronauts to see the second hand of their watches getting slower and slower the faster they go..
Or does NASA issue digital watches to them in order to overcome the problem?

No, astronauts would not notice their watches slowing down regardless of how fast they were going. That is the whole point of relativity. You can only state the speed of the astronauts relative to some other point. When we say that they are traveling at 18,000 miles per hour (using Supe’s numbers) what we mean is that they are traveling at that speed relative to some point on earth. But their speed relative to their own watch would be 0, so there would be no time dilation at all. But if someone on earth were somehow able to look at a watch being worn by an astronaut then they would perceive a time dilation.

But of course the amount of time dilation we are talking about much to small to be perceived by humans, so that is where the incredibly accurate atomic clocks come in.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The last I heard, scientists were saying that the universe was accelerating. Everything seemed to be moving further away from one another.

Of course, moving away in one direction can cause collision with other heavenly bodies. The Milky Way has swallowed or absorbed stars from small galaxies or star cluster, like a gigantic cannibal.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
gnostic said:
Of course, moving away in one direction can cause collision with other heavenly bodies. The Milky Way has swallowed or absorbed stars from small galaxies or star cluster, like a gigantic cannibal.
IIRC we are going to get eaten by Andromeda.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Probably practical difficulties may prevent travel at near-light speeds. One is that any collision with a particle of any mass would be catastrophic, like being hit with bullet going at near light speed. It would go straight through the ship unless some kind of shield could be developed to turn it aside. Other difficulties, I believe, is that as you get closer to light speed , the amount of energy needed to increase speed goes up exponentially.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Other difficulties, I believe, is that as you get closer to light speed , the amount of energy needed to increase speed goes up exponentially.
Intertial mass increases logarithmically as you approach the speed of light. To move at the speed of light would require infinite energy.

I think Andromeda is larger than the Milky Way. Isn't it?
Yes.
 

bender118

Member
maintaining speed. matter is expanding into nothingness, and therefore has no resistance. In fact, we are expanding so fast, galaxies are being flung farther and farther apart. eventually all we will be able to see are static images of far off galaxies. Only galaxies near us will we be able to study. Of course this generally accepted fact is not supported by the string theory which does not define the energy a vaccum has. It reall defines it as 0, but tha cant be true if the universe is contantly expanding, but this is poff topic..
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
maintaining speed. matter is expanding into nothingness, and therefore has no resistance.
You are making a lot of assumptions about the geometry of the universe that cannot be supported.

In fact, we are expanding so fast, galaxies are being flung farther and farther apart. eventually all we will be able to see are static images of far off galaxies. Only galaxies near us will we be able to study.
Huh?
 

bender118

Member
JerryL said:
You are making a lot of assumptions about the geometry of the universe that cannot be supported.

Huh?
According to the big bang theory, an infitie amount of energy, er exploded and formed matter. This causes matter to rush out at increasing speeds. According to the Big Bang, then not only is the speed of the universe not slowing, but it is increasing, as there is no resistance to its speed. This means when the speed of growth surpasses light speed, we will only see static images of other galaxies.(because our galaxies are moving as well)
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
According to the big bang theory, an infitie amount of energy, er exploded and formed matter.
No. According to BB the modern universe began in an explosion of time-space. There's no "infinate" involved.

This causes matter to rush out at increasing speeds.
No. Without something to accellerate matter, it would not increase in speed. Further, a shared center of gravity would serve to reduce relative speed.

The fact that the rate of seperation is increasing requires either a force pushing them apart (dark energy) or an increase in the rate of time-space expansion.

According to the Big Bang, then not only is the speed of the universe not slowing, but it is increasing, as there is no resistance to its speed.
Of course there is resistance: gravity. Further, no resistance would leave the speed fixed.

This means when the speed of growth surpasses light speed, we will only see static images of other galaxies.(because our galaxies are moving as well)
Actually, they would be forced to move backwards in time. Exceeding the speed of light is not possible according to general relativity.
 

bender118

Member
JerryL said:
No. According to BB the modern universe began in an explosion of time-space. There's no "infinate" involved.

No. Without something to accellerate matter, it would not increase in speed. Further, a shared center of gravity would serve to reduce relative speed.

The fact that the rate of seperation is increasing requires either a force pushing them apart (dark energy) or an increase in the rate of time-space expansion.

Of course there is resistance: gravity. Further, no resistance would leave the speed fixed.

Actually, they would be forced to move backwards in time. Exceeding the speed of light is not possible according to general relativity.
the amount of energy for creating the universe is infinite. It takes massive amounts of energy to get a very small amounts of matter. also, who said actual mass was there? nobody. a vaccum is expanding which gravity does not effect. Exceeding is possible, assuming you are a vaccume. areas where space doest exist is not a vacum, those spaces re nothing. they dont exist
 
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