Jesus never says to worship 'Yahweh'

Phantasman · Jun 6, 2018

Disciple of Jesus said:
This should tell you that the reason, that Jehovah, is in the Christian religion, isn't because 'Jesus was a Jew'.
Thus, Jesus isn't presenting the 'same religion', as the 'Jews religion', here, referred to in the Bible.

The 'Jews religion', referred to in the verses, doesn't mean the OT, Old Testament.
Jesus Himself , references the OT.
In the Bible, 'Jews', are in the church, along with gentiles, or rather previous Gentiles, because in the Bible, Gentiles, Jews, and Jesus followers, are all different groups. It is a way to describe, who they were talking about.

You're missing the point. There are no Jews or Gentiles in Christianity. There is no Jewish Christian. You are a Jew or become a Christian. You are a Gentile or become a Christian. Leaving one for the other.
Galatians:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Jews, Greek, males, females are flesh, not spirit.

John 6:63:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The "law" is of the flesh. Jesus taught spirit, spoke spirit. Unless you release flesh thought (OT) you are a slave to flesh. The rich man told Jesus he kept the laws of Moses, every one. Yet he lost out on life (according to Jesus) for his love of flesh things.

Don't make the same mistake. John above tells you where life is. It is spirit. No Jews, no Gentiles, no males, no females.

Phantasman · Jun 6, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
I find Jesus did promise heaven to those like those of Luke 22:28-30.
Those people have a first or earlier resurrection as per Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10.
Those of John 3:13 ( All who died before Jesus like King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34 ) await a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection as does Daniel - Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13.
Jesus referring to Psalms 37:9-11 clearly says humble meek people will inherit the: Earth.
Not an earth full of suffering, but one with healing for earth's nations as described at Revelation 22:2.
We the living are nearing a soon coming ' time of separation' on Earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33,37.
We can remain alive on Earth and continue to live on Earth during Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.
That is when ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8.

I don't follow the Apocalypse of John or the Apocalypse of Peter (both were in the Bible at one time until the catholics removed the Apocalypse of Peter and only read it on Easter). The Apocalypse of Peter (translation by M. R. James)

David, Daniel, etc. have already been saved by Christ. He saved the saints a moment after the crucifixion.

Matthew 27:
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The resurrection of the dead occurred. The entire OT was completed with the words "It is finished".

URAVIP2ME · Jun 6, 2018

Phantasman said:
http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocalypsepeter-mrjames.html
Matthew 27:
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
The resurrection of the dead occurred. The entire OT was completed with the words "It is finished".

I find No one was resurrected before God resurrected Jesus.
So, the day Jesus' died Jesus was Not resurrected according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
So, when the thick temple curtain was torn top to bottom Jesus was Not yet resurrected.
It was Not the day in which Jesus' died that he was resurrected.
No one who died before Jesus died ( John 3:13 ) had a resurrection including king David - Acts of the apostles 2:34.
So, the many bodies of Matthew 27:52 were just exposed corpses that rose up to the surface because of the quake.
Please notice in verse 53: it is then talking about " after " Jesus' resurrection, so the living people at the graves/ cemetery ( after Jesus' resurrection ) went to the city and those living people appeared to many.
Jesus, according to 1 Corinthians 15:20, places the resurrected Jesus as the ' first ' of those that slept in death.
Those dead holy ones or saints of verse 52 were Not resurrected before Jesus, but their corpses were seen.

oldbadger · Jun 6, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Hmm. How do you relate jesus and in your faith? Are you christian? (Going by trinity in scripture and CCC which is differant than fundamentlist strict definitiom)

No...... not Christian.
The more I studied what is available about historical Jesus, so the less chance there could be of me being a Christian,,,,,,,

CCC?
Calvinist Cadet Corps, Christian mentoring organization
Campus Crusade for Christ, an interdenominational Christian organization
Canadian Council of Churches, an ecumenical Christian forum of churches in Canada
Catechism of the Catholic Church, an official exposition (catechism) of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church
Celestial Church of Christ, an independent African Church
Central Congregational Church (Providence, Rhode Island), a United Church of Christ congregation
China Christian Council, a government-approved Christian organization in the People's Republic of China
Christian City Churches, an evangelical, Pentecostal church movement founded by Pastors Phil Pringle and Chris Pringle
Christian Cultural Center, a New York City-based church pastored by Dr. A. R. Bernard
Church of Christ in China, one of the Chinese Independent Churches
Clearwater Christian College, a four-year non-denominational Christian College
Colorado Community Church, an interdenominational church in Denver, Colorado, U.S.
Community Christian College, a two-year college based in Redlands, California, U.S.

Unveiled Artist · Jun 6, 2018

oldbadger said:
No...... not Christian.
The more I studied what is available about historical Jesus, so the less chance there could be of me being a Christian,,,,,,,

CCC?
Calvinist Cadet Corps, Christian mentoring organization
Campus Crusade for Christ, an interdenominational Christian organization
Canadian Council of Churches, an ecumenical Christian forum of churches in Canada
Catechism of the Catholic Church, an official exposition (catechism) of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church
Celestial Church of Christ, an independent African Church
Central Congregational Church (Providence, Rhode Island), a United Church of Christ congregation
China Christian Council, a government-approved Christian organization in the People's Republic of China
Christian City Churches, an evangelical, Pentecostal church movement founded by Pastors Phil Pringle and Chris Pringle
Christian Cultural Center, a New York City-based church pastored by Dr. A. R. Bernard
Church of Christ in China, one of the Chinese Independent Churches
Clearwater Christian College, a four-year non-denominational Christian College
Colorado Community Church, an interdenominational church in Denver, Colorado, U.S.
Community Christian College, a two-year college based in Redlands, California, U.S.

Funny. Did you study the Church's doctrine and bible?

CCC Catechism of the Catholic Church

ASK

No sarcasm

Phantasman · Jun 6, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
I find No one was resurrected before God resurrected Jesus.
So, the day Jesus' died Jesus was Not resurrected according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
So, when the thick temple curtain was torn top to bottom Jesus was Not yet resurrected.
It was Not the day in which Jesus' died that he was resurrected.
No one who died before Jesus died ( John 3:13 ) had a resurrection including king David - Acts of the apostles 2:34.
So, the many bodies of Matthew 27:52 were just exposed corpses that rose up to the surface because of the quake.
Please notice in verse 53: it is then talking about " after " Jesus' resurrection, so the living people at the graves/ cemetery ( after Jesus' resurrection ) went to the city and those living people appeared to many.
Jesus, according to 1 Corinthians 15:20, places the resurrected Jesus as the ' first ' of those that slept in death.
Those dead holy ones or saints of verse 52 were Not resurrected before Jesus, but their corpses were seen.

What one believes happened has no bearing on where one is going.

I still accept the non Canon viewpoint (gnostic) over the teachings of orthodoxy (catholic).

"Still for a third time I went - I am the light which exists in the light, I am the remembrance of the Pronoia - that I might enter into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades. And I filled my face with the light of the completion of their aeon. And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep.' And he wept and shed tears. Bitter tears he wiped from himself and he said, 'Who is it that calls my name, and from where has this hope come to me, while I am in the chains of the prison?' And I said, 'I am the Pronoia of the pure light; I am the thinking of the virginal Spirit, who raised you up to the honored place. Arise and remember that it is you who hearkened, and follow your root, which is I, the merciful one, and guard yourself against the angels of poverty and the demons of chaos and all those who ensnare you, and beware of the deep sleep and the enclosure of the inside of Hades.

"And I raised him up, and sealed him in the light of the water with five seals, in order that death might not have power over him from this time on.

"And behold, now I shall go up to the perfect aeon. I have completed everything for you in your hearing. And I have said everything to you that you might write them down and give them secretly to your fellow spirits, for this is the mystery of the immovable race." -Secret John

oldbadger · Jun 7, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Funny. Did you study the Church's doctrine and bible?

Excuse me........ about my reaction to abbreviations....

Now, I read the bible. my first serious interest started in 1994 when I read three translations in a year as a project. To just relax and read books gets me 'tuned' to a writer's style, method, etc, and when I reached the New Testament I sensed alterations, edits, changes and inclusions jumping out at me as I read. on. Certain authors I mistrusted after that year, some because they were arrogant liars, and some because they obviously had copied their stories from others are were clearly not witnesses.

That eventually got me started into the study of the Historic Jesus, and for the last seven years I have have been a keen student of HJ. But read the NT for what history it contains... only.

You ask if I have studied Church Doctrine.................... I need to take my wife to work..... I'll come back to you.

TrueBeliever37 · Jun 7, 2018

Disciple of Jesus said:
Lord also means Jesus, so that isn't the best argument.

However, sure.

Doesn't it cause you problems to believe there is more than one who is the Lord? Because that is in conflict with Ephesians 4:5

And if there are two in your view, which is the Lord of the other? Revelation 19:15-16

Desert Snake · Jun 7, 2018

TrueBeliever37 said:
Doesn't it cause you problems to believe there is more than one who is the Lord? Because that is in conflict with Ephesians 4:5

And if there are two in your view, which is the Lord of the other? Revelation 19:15-16

Well, that is the thing, it is a problem for those who cannot have more than one aspect of the Lord, or God, as to how they interpret the text. However, no, to me, there is no problem, because I am not interpreting the text in that manner.
Hence, more than one aspect to the Lord.

TrueBeliever37 · Jun 7, 2018

Disciple of Jesus said:
Well, that is the thing, it is a problem for those who cannot have more than one aspect of the Lord, or God, as to how they interpret the text. However, no, to me, there is no problem, because I am not interpreting the text in that manner.
Hence, more than one aspect to the Lord.

So what was the answer to my 2nd question - which is Lord of the other? Revelation 19:15-16

oldbadger · Jun 7, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Did you study the Church's doctrine and bible?

As explained I have read the bible for many years.

But I never did study the Catholic Church's Doctrine. But what I did do was take passing interest in the historical record of the Catholic Church's behaviour, in other words, I take more notice of actions rather than words.

The faith of Christianity cannot possibly be based upon a Church's doctrine, but upon the actions and words of Jesus, or Yeshua BarYosef as I call him. Nothing else matters, and you can include Paul's ideas about Christianity in the 'nothing else matters' section.

I've taken close care about Yeshua BarYosef and belief that he was a Galilean 2nd order peasant (no insult intended here) who initiated an uprising against the priesthood for the return of all the discarded laws of Moses, especially the poor-laws, I think. No more.

TrueBeliever37 · Jun 7, 2018

Disciple of Jesus said:
No, the context, isn't the title of the thread.

'Jesus never says to worship Yahweh'

That is the title. The title is not asking whether christians should be worshipping Yahweh, or whether Jesus worships Yahweh, or any variation from the title, and premise.

Regardless, Jesus still never says to worship Yahweh

So, youre wrong, anyway.

He said it is written, Thou shalt worship YHWH thy God, and him only shalt thou serve in Matthew 4:10 and Luke 4:8

Go to the verse in the OT he is quoting, and saying it is written - When you do, you will find it is YHWH in the Hebrew, for that verse.

But as the scripture points out in Philippians 2:11, every tongue will confess that the Messiah is YHWH

Unveiled Artist · Jun 7, 2018

oldbadger said:
As explained I have read the bible for many years.

But I never did study the Catholic Church's Doctrine. But what I did do was take passing interest in the historical record of the Catholic Church's behaviour, in other words, I take more notice of actions rather than words.

The faith of Christianity cannot possibly be based upon a Church's doctrine, but upon the actions and words of Jesus, or Yeshua BarYosef as I call him. Nothing else matters, and you can include Paul's ideas about Christianity in the 'nothing else matters' section.

I've taken close care about Yeshua BarYosef and belief that he was a Galilean 2nd order peasant (no insult intended here) who initiated an uprising against the priesthood for the return of all the discarded laws of Moses, especially the poor-laws, I think. No more.

Hmm. Id say historically, Catholicism (dont think it was calldd that back then. Thinking of before Romanesque period; trying to get my timeline straight) is the heart of what we knos of christianity today. The practice jesus taught was to worship god not himself. I think the worship-jesus came later as many Romans and Greeks treated their dead as the living giving them golds and divinity (eternal life rather than sacredness).

The switch of worshiping god to christ wasnt around then. Catholics started mixing jewish view with christian view by saying the "us" in the torah is jesus. Id go off jewish views in that its a translation issue not someone extra present.

I honestly never heard of Yeshua BarYosef, but when I read the bible the first time, I was highly evangelical (as so my family had told me). Bible-only person.

The actions and words of jesus, to me, is specific to what he taught "about" his father. He refered to himself as a conduit (no one comes to the father except through me). If the crestor and savior were the same, being an incarnation wouldnt prompt jesus to tall about himself apart from himself because he was flesh. That sounds more of a mental health issue, if it were that serious. I think his disciples knew the difference. People today, I think you guys went off the deep end.

oldbadger · Jun 8, 2018

Disciple of Jesus said:
No, the context, isn't the title of the thread.

'Jesus never says to worship Yahweh'

That is the title. The title is not asking whether christians should be worshipping Yahweh, or whether Jesus worships Yahweh, or any variation from the title, and premise.

Regardless, Jesus still never says to worship Yahweh

So, youre wrong, anyway.

I don't think I'm wrong....... :shrug:

God. Yahweh. Jehovah. The Lord. ............. they're all the same God.

To pretend that Jesus didn't tell his followers how to pray to their God, his God, is strange to me. If you have to crank and manipulate these simple reports of what Jesus did, presumably in order to keep your beliefs afloat, then you're going to need a great big lifeboat to the rescue, not a 'contextual' bouyancy aid.

oldbadger · Jun 8, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Hmm. Id say historically, Catholicism (dont think it was calldd that back then. Thinking of before Romanesque period;

Wow! Before the Roman Period? The Roman Period was commencing within about twenty years of Jesus. Christianity is Roman. Jesus never even heard the word, he spoke Eastern Aramaic.

The practice jesus taught was to worship god not himself.

Jesus, or Yeshua and his followers already did that. He needed them to come together in a campaign for the return of all the laws of Moses, especially the poor laws, long discarded by a careless priesthood.

The actions and words of jesus, to me, is specific to what he taught "about" his father. He refered to himself as a conduit (no one comes to the father except through me).

They all thought of God as their father. They were the children of Israel.......... and since many of the old laws were ignored he wanted his following to embrace them again. They already embraced their God.

People today, I think you guys went off the deep end.

Us guys? I'm a Deist...... it says so in my 'box thing' above my posts.
But I don't mind anybody thinking that Deists are in deep, 'cos we sure ain't in the shallows.

wizanda · Jun 8, 2018

Disciple of Jesus said:
That would mean that Jesus is Lord, YHWH, and the Father is someone else?

Partially right; yet we shouldn't use 'someone' for the father, more like 'something', the closest human terminology is a CPU that manifest reality at a quantum level; which in ancient Biblical times was called El Elyon (God Most High)...

Which is who Gabriel (Luke 1:32), Yeshua (Luke 6:35), and the demons called Yeshua's father.

In my opinion.

wizanda · Jun 8, 2018

oldbadger said:
They already embraced their God.

Yeshua pointed out they didn't know his father (Matthew 11:27), and that the Children of Israel cast out demons by his name (Matthew 12:27)...

Therefore he was stating he was the spirit of YHVH, and his father is El Elyon; which Judaism still doesn't acknowledge.

Like take into account David stated two references:

2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13 Yahweh thundered from heaven 'and' The Most High uttered his voice. + Psalms 21:7 + Psalms 50:14 + Psalms 78:35 + Psalms 92:1

In my opinion.

Unveiled Artist · Jun 8, 2018

oldbadger said:
Wow! Before the Roman Period? The Roman Period was commencing within about twenty years of Jesus. Christianity is Roman. Jesus never even heard the word, he spoke Eastern Aramai

Cant remember if it were called christian then until Rome took over or something. Cant remember the details I learned half a year ago. I finally graduated so I have reason to forget.

oldbadger said:
Jesus, or Yeshua and his followers already did that. He needed them to come together in a campaign for the return of all the laws of Moses, especially the poor laws, long discarded by a careless priesthood.

"Jesus taught to worship god not himself."

When, where, why, wasnt included in this statement. How does thjs relate?

oldbadger said:
They all thought of God as their father. They were the children of Israel.......... and since many of the old laws were ignored he wanted his following to embrace them again. They already embraced their God.

Scratches her head

I never disagreed.
Where did I say otherwise???

oldbadger said:
Us guys? I'm a Deist...... it says so in my 'box thing' above my posts.
But I don't mind anybody thinking that Deists are in deep, 'cos we sure ain't in the shallows.

Im an atheist. I disagree with the trinity. Never believed in christ's father nor the bible. All od you who believe in god, I cant figure you guys out.

What is the god you believe in?
An idea or feeling of one?

TrueBeliever37 · Jun 8, 2018

Disciple of Jesus said:
Yes, however, 'Lord' here could be referring to Jesus. Since you can worship Jesus. And if you aren't making a separation at all, then Jesus can easily be used for YHWH.

That would mean that Jesus is Lord, YHWH, and the Father is someone else? The verse clearly infers these are different persons, at least by name, ie textually.

It doesn't mean the Father is someone else. Isaiah 9:6 lets us know that the son to be born would also be the mighty God, and the everlasting Father.

What did the son say when asked to show them the Father?
He said - Have I been so long time with you and you still don't know me? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou shew us the Father ? John 14:8-9

The son is the flesh, and the Father is the eternal Spirit dwelling in that flesh. That is why he said I and my Father are one. John 10:30-33
They understood what he meant, that he was God, that is why they tried to stone him. They said he was committing blasphemy, that he being a man, was making himself God.

As I said, he was YHWH.

Who created everything? Was it YHWH as stated in Isaiah 44:24 who said, I am YHWH that maketh all things: that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. or was it the Messiah as stated in Colossians 1:14-16 ?
Please don't just skip this - try to answer it.

Once again this proves the Messiah had to have been YHWH in order for both scriptures to be true.
Why should it surprise you? It says God was manifest in the flesh. 1 Timothy 3:16

paarsurrey · Jun 8, 2018

Jesus never says to worship 'Yahweh'

I disagree.
Whenever Jesus said "God the father" he meant by it Yahweh and or Allah, he could not be his own father, please. Right, please?
Regards

Jesus never says to worship 'Yahweh'

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